AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options  (Read 911 times)

MikieTimT

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 501
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Wedington Woods, Arkansas
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 07:39:37 PM
ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« on: January 12, 2020, 09:30:56 AM »

https://www.arkansashighways.com/news/2020_news/NR%2020-006.pdf

Regional open houses for projects possible with different funding levels.  I'm personally for extending the 1/2 cent sales tax, but not perpetually as will be voted on.  Taxes have a way of never dying once implemented perpetually, and I think it's good stewardship of public resources to have to re-justify every 10 years or so like this last sunsetting tax.
Logged

Bobby5280

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2207
  • Location: Lawton, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 01:27:19 AM
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2020, 11:37:26 AM »

The language in the PDF seems pretty clear that the 1/2˘ sales tax will provide an additional $205 million annually to ARDOT. They estimate $43 million each to cities and counties. Is that $43 million spread out, divided among cities and counties or does each county and big city get $43 million per year to use on highway projects? The latter would seem pretty big.

I'm not a big fan of sales tax initiatives. From one town to the next various 1/4˘, 1/2˘ and 1˘ measures can add up quickly and pass a price/pain threshold. That threshold can make or break a consumer's choice whether the buy a product locally or find some place online selling the same product without the sales taxes. And sometimes the added sales taxes for a given product will be high enough that it convinces the consumer not to buy the product at all. Many consumers want the product they desire right now. I think they're willing to pay a small amount in sales taxes in return for the luxury of being able to acquire it immediately as opposed to waiting a couple or more days for the merchandise to arrive in the mail.

Any city or town is really going to be pushing its luck with consumers if sales tax levels reach the 9˘-10˘ per $1 level. What complicates matters is that as one initiative expires there always seems to be other initiatives that move in and keep a high sales tax level at that level. There is an argument that if a given town allows a bunch of these measures to sunset it would create a price advantage that draws more consumers and business to the area.

Sales tax initiatives are also regressive in that the pain of those taxes is more acutely felt by people in lower income groups and with less disposable income. People in the top income brackets feel more financial pain from property taxes and income taxes.

That issue aside, AR DOT has a lot on its plate. It has taken what seems like forever for projects like the I-49 Belle Vista Bypass or US-67 freeway to Walnut Ridge to get built. The I-49 segment between Fort Smith and Texarkana and I-69 in Southern Arkansas are both major projects that will consume billions of dollars. Then there's all the existing roads and bridges that have to be maintained. The 1/2˘ sales tax measure will provide a good funding boost for those projects. It seems like a "hold your nose and vote yes" proposition.
Logged

MikieTimT

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 501
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Wedington Woods, Arkansas
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 07:39:37 PM
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2020, 05:01:48 PM »

Given that it's Arkansas we're talking about, I'm sure it's $43M split across the counties in the state, and $43M split across the cities in the state.  We just don't have the economy that surrounding states have, but we're trying to put the infrastructure in place to make it better to conduct business here.  I just got done touring several areas of the state this past week and a half for IT equipment replacement projects for some restaurants and law firm branches around the state, and I'm seeing fiber deployments by the electric cooperatives rolling out right now to alleviate some of the backwards Internet connectivity in the rural parts where DSL is still king.  If the private sector won't do it, then the people who live here will band together and do it anyway.  Gives me great hope in the future of this place, but there'll be some pain in the process of getting there.  And as far as regressive taxes go, this one isn't really that regressive since it splits up the burden across most everyone in the state as well as those who pass through and stop over for a bit.  People of all income levels have to consume something in this state, and the rich don't really cause any more wear on the roads than poor people do.  Rich or poor, most drive large pickups or SUVs in this state as they are the most durable and useful form of vehicle given that this is still predominantly a rural state.  They all do about the same damage as any other, unless we're talking about chicken trucks, retail delivery trucks, logging trucks, or just the overall truck freight passing through the state.  Diesel road taxes are higher to compensate for that, though.
Logged

bjrush

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 377
  • Go Hogs

  • Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas
  • Last Login: July 16, 2020, 04:01:02 PM
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2020, 07:43:19 PM »

I'm not a big fan of sales tax initiatives. From one town to the next various 1/4˘, 1/2˘ and 1˘ measures can add up quickly and pass a price/pain threshold. That threshold can make or break a consumer's choice whether the buy a product locally or find some place online selling the same product without the sales taxes. And sometimes the added sales taxes for a given product will be high enough that it convinces the consumer not to buy the product at all. Many consumers want the product they desire right now. I think they're willing to pay a small amount in sales taxes in return for the luxury of being able to acquire it immediately as opposed to waiting a couple or more days for the merchandise to arrive in the mail.

Any city or town is really going to be pushing its luck with consumers if sales tax levels reach the 9˘-10˘ per $1 level. What complicates matters is that as one initiative expires there always seems to be other initiatives that move in and keep a high sales tax level at that level. There is an argument that if a given town allows a bunch of these measures to sunset it would create a price advantage that draws more consumers and business to the area.

Sales tax is still due for online purchases.

Also, most cities, especially any of size like in NWA, are already at 9-10% total sales tax.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 07:50:30 PM by bjrush »
Logged
Woo Pig Sooie

US71

  • Road Scholar , Master of Snark
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10074
  • Mad man with a camera

  • Age: 60
  • Location: On the road again
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 11:10:12 PM
    • The Road Less Taken
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 01:02:48 PM »

https://www.arkansashighways.com/news/2020_news/NR%2020-006.pdf

Regional open houses for projects possible with different funding levels.  I'm personally for extending the 1/2 cent sales tax, but not perpetually as will be voted on.  Taxes have a way of never dying once implemented perpetually, and I think it's good stewardship of public resources to have to re-justify every 10 years or so like this last sunsetting tax.

Maybe Arkansas should quit giving tax breaks to the wealthy. Their taxes seem to go down every time they go UP for everyone else.
Logged
Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

edwaleni

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 800
  • Last Login: Today at 08:45:47 AM
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 07:51:48 PM »

https://www.arkansashighways.com/news/2020_news/NR%2020-006.pdf

Regional open houses for projects possible with different funding levels.  I'm personally for extending the 1/2 cent sales tax, but not perpetually as will be voted on.  Taxes have a way of never dying once implemented perpetually, and I think it's good stewardship of public resources to have to re-justify every 10 years or so like this last sunsetting tax.

Maybe Arkansas should quit giving tax breaks to the wealthy. Their taxes seem to go down every time they go UP for everyone else.

Sam Pittman, new Arkansas football coach, $3 million annually
Eric Musselman, new Arkansas basketball coach, $2.5 million annually + incentives

Get back to me when the state lowers your taxes to support cheaper sports programs.
Logged

US71

  • Road Scholar , Master of Snark
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10074
  • Mad man with a camera

  • Age: 60
  • Location: On the road again
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 11:10:12 PM
    • The Road Less Taken
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 08:29:46 PM »

https://www.arkansashighways.com/news/2020_news/NR%2020-006.pdf

Regional open houses for projects possible with different funding levels.  I'm personally for extending the 1/2 cent sales tax, but not perpetually as will be voted on.  Taxes have a way of never dying once implemented perpetually, and I think it's good stewardship of public resources to have to re-justify every 10 years or so like this last sunsetting tax.

Maybe Arkansas should quit giving tax breaks to the wealthy. Their taxes seem to go down every time they go UP for everyone else.

Sam Pittman, new Arkansas football coach, $3 million annually
Eric Musselman, new Arkansas basketball coach, $2.5 million annually + incentives

Get back to me when the state lowers your taxes to support cheaper sports programs.

Theoretically, most of that comes from the Booster Club member who get big tax breaks to donate to athletics.
Logged
Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

mvak36

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 900
  • Super Bowl Champs!!!!

  • Last Login: Today at 09:24:16 AM
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2020, 05:34:03 PM »

I found the site where they have the presentations from the meetings and other interesting stuff: http://ardot.gov/renew. I found this site thanks to this article recapping the public meeting from Monticello.

Of interest to me was what the second round of the Connecting Arkansas Program would be if this tax passes: http://ardot.gov/renew/Statewide/Map3_CAP_2.pdf
Logged
Counties: Counties visited
Travel Mapping: Summary

MikieTimT

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 501
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Wedington Woods, Arkansas
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 07:39:37 PM
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2020, 06:28:46 PM »

I found the site where they have the presentations from the meetings and other interesting stuff: http://ardot.gov/renew. I found this site thanks to this article recapping the public meeting from Monticello.

Of interest to me was what the second round of the Connecting Arkansas Program would be if this tax passes: http://ardot.gov/renew/Statewide/Map3_CAP_2.pdf

Trouble with this tax is, there isn't a timeframe for implementing the projects, and this tax won't have a sunset like the previous one did.  Pretty much $1 billion is spent in central Arkansas and along I-40 between Little Rock and Memphis.  That's pretty much as much as the rest of the other projects combined across the state.  The southeastern part of the state is limited to US-82 and bits of I-69.  The western part of the state gets some super-2 AR-549 in the Future I-49 corridor.  The northestern corner gets a very ambiguous I-57 bone thrown their way.  Little Rock has got to be the most well-connected and road project hungry metropolitan area of its population size anywhere in the nation.  With all of the traffic that is actually transiting the state that passes through there, you'd think they'd find a better way to fund those projects than a sales tax.

The XNA connector humorously has a state shield with TBD in it.  Every roadgeek in Arkansas knows that it will almost assuredly be AR-980.
Logged

mvak36

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 900
  • Super Bowl Champs!!!!

  • Last Login: Today at 09:24:16 AM
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2020, 06:44:17 PM »

Trouble with this tax is, there isn't a timeframe for implementing the projects, and this tax won't have a sunset like the previous one did.  Pretty much $1 billion is spent in central Arkansas and along I-40 between Little Rock and Memphis.  That's pretty much as much as the rest of the other projects combined across the state.  The southeastern part of the state is limited to US-82 and bits of I-69.  The western part of the state gets some super-2 AR-549 in the Future I-49 corridor.  The northestern corner gets a very ambiguous I-57 bone thrown their way.  Little Rock has got to be the most well-connected and road project hungry metropolitan area of its population size anywhere in the nation.  With all of the traffic that is actually transiting the state that passes through there, you'd think they'd find a better way to fund those projects than a sales tax.

The XNA connector humorously has a state shield with TBD in it.  Every roadgeek in Arkansas knows that it will almost assuredly be AR-980.

Yeah I guess I didn't think about how long the timeframe was for all the projects they have on that map. Looking at the presentation from the Harrison meeting (page 12 of the pdf), it looks like it will be 10 years.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 11:37:21 PM by mvak36 »
Logged
Counties: Counties visited
Travel Mapping: Summary

Gordon

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 204
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 02:18:53 PM
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2020, 06:57:01 PM »

I havent added it up but the Little Rock area got a lot of the money from the previous 10 year sales tax. I think they can pass a sales tax for that area and build all the damn roads they want. Look at south west part of the state got nothing but city and county money the first time and the same on this proposal. From Texarkana to 270 Hwy. is nothing marked up again.
Logged

US71

  • Road Scholar , Master of Snark
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10074
  • Mad man with a camera

  • Age: 60
  • Location: On the road again
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 11:10:12 PM
    • The Road Less Taken
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2020, 08:38:40 PM »

I havent added it up but the Little Rock area got a lot of the money from the previous 10 year sales tax. I think they can pass a sales tax for that area and build all the damn roads they want. Look at south west part of the state got nothing but city and county money the first time and the same on this proposal. From Texarkana to 270 Hwy. is nothing marked up again.

Little Rock always gets a large share of tax money, as does the Northwest corner. Everyone else is basically told "take a number".
Logged
Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

rte66man

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1349
  • Location: Warr Acres, OK
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 06:19:13 PM
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2020, 09:02:47 AM »

I found the site where they have the presentations from the meetings and other interesting stuff: http://ardot.gov/renew. I found this site thanks to this article recapping the public meeting from Monticello.

US138? US35??
Logged
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

O Tamandua

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 383
  • Location: Bella Vista, AR
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 09:53:00 PM
    • A-B-P Ministries - An evangelical Christian ministry serving Angola, Brazil, Portugal.
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2020, 10:15:39 PM »

I havent added it up but the Little Rock area got a lot of the money from the previous 10 year sales tax. I think they can pass a sales tax for that area and build all the damn roads they want. Look at south west part of the state got nothing but city and county money the first time and the same on this proposal. From Texarkana to 270 Hwy. is nothing marked up again.

Little Rock always gets a large share of tax money, as does the Northwest corner. Everyone else is basically told "take a number".

JMO (with an educated guess) but add "I-30 between Texarkana and Little Rock" to the above if Texas I-69/I-369 gets finished (well) before Arkansas I-49 does.  I'm all for seeing it built, but the thought of adding Houston/Mexico traffic to the existing Texas traffic running that route without I-49 north to relieve it makes me shudder.
Logged

bugo

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6263
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Oklahoma
  • Last Login: Today at 10:35:17 AM
    • No Frills Blog
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2020, 09:49:17 AM »

I don't expect the XNA connector to be signed as Airport 980. I predict that it will get a regular state highway number.
Logged

Henry

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5769
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Chicago, IL/Seattle, WA
  • Last Login: September 30, 2020, 09:30:57 PM
    • Henry Watson's Online Freeway
Re: ARDOT scheduling public education meetings for funding options
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2020, 10:11:57 AM »

I'd pretty much expect I-57 to be in the exact same situation as I-49 around Bella Vista: Get MO to build the missing pieces as soon as it reaches the state line. Then again, I-57 would have a larger gap to fill, as Sikeston is further away from the line than Pineville, is it not?
Logged
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.