Coronavirus pandemic

[Duke87]

Note also that it's not just the "you could spread the virus to a high risk person" risk (since it's tempting to rebut with "but I don't come into contact with any such people" or "those people should go into isolation"); it's "you could spread the virus to others who come into contact with high risk people".

The its-all-about-my-comfort-and-convenience attitude is a major reason why entire countries are going into lockdown.  It's a step being taken because too many people cannot be trusted to do their part in slowing the spread of the virus to a manageable rate.

I wouldn't tear into people's attitudes too much over this. Fact of the matter is when you talk about individual people voluntarily doing their part, and making only suggestions, this leads to a lot of confusion and doubt as to what is or isn't really necessary - and a lot of people are quite understandably going to be like "well no one said I can't do this, so..." or "eh other people are staying home, so I don't have to".

If you want quick and effective results you need to give people direct and specific instructions, not suggestions or calls for voluntary action. This is true for managing large groups of people even under non-crisis circumstances.

My big concern with school closure in general has to do with feeding kids who qualify for free school lunches.

Schools around here have been still providing meals for those kids, available for pickup at the school around lunchtime or, in some cases, delivered to the kids' homes using the school buses that are otherwise not currently in use.

NYC specifically is also going to be using some schools to provide free daycare services for the children of healthcare workers and first responders.

[roadman65]

In Tampa Bay restaurants can't have more than 10 customers.

[MikeTheActuary]

All non-essential travel and workplaces should be closed. I'm in support of mandated social quarantines and taking actions similar to what Italy has already done.

That would be unconstitutional.

...for the feds perhaps (unless interpreted as an extension of the Commerce Clause), but the states have such power from pre-Constitution legal tradition, protected by the Tenth Amendment.

[bandit957]

...for the feds perhaps (unless interpreted as an extension of the Commerce Clause), but the states have such power from pre-Constitution legal tradition, protected by the Tenth Amendment.

The Bill of Rights is binding on the states under the doctrine of incorporation.

[Brandon]

All non-essential travel and workplaces should be closed. I'm in support of mandated social quarantines and taking actions similar to what Italy has already done.

That would be unconstitutional.

...for the feds perhaps (unless interpreted as an extension of the Commerce Clause), but the states have such power from pre-Constitution legal tradition, protected by the Tenth Amendment.

Not quite.  Anything and everything in the Constitution also applies to the states (14th Amendment) unless it pertains only to the feds.

[MikeTheActuary]

All non-essential travel and workplaces should be closed. I'm in support of mandated social quarantines and taking actions similar to what Italy has already done.

That would be unconstitutional.

...for the feds perhaps (unless interpreted as an extension of the Commerce Clause), but the states have such power from pre-Constitution legal tradition, protected by the Tenth Amendment.

Not quite.  Anything and everything in the Constitution also applies to the states (14th Amendment) unless it pertains only to the feds.

The equal protection clause makes prohibitions of certain federal behaviors as regards the citizens binding on the states.   However, the Constitution is silent on this subject, except in regards to interstate matters (where Congress has authority under the premise of interstate trade...a power that might exceed what the framers intended, but which the Supreme Court has interpreted in a sufficiently broad manner as to make the argument moot for practical purposes), or as a border control measure (one which the Supreme Court has acknowledged can impose limited/necessary constraints as "an ancient right of nations").

The power of quarantine is a police power, another "ancient power" deemed inherent to the operation of government.  The applicable portion of the Constitution is that portion of the Tenth Amendment which preserves state powers not ceded to the federal government.   I'm not aware of a Constitutional challenge to local quarantines having made it to the SCOTUS (such suits historically have been refused by appellate courts, or the matter became moot by the time of appeal), the question of state mandatory vaccination laws has been heard by the SCOTUS.  See, e.g., Jacobson v Massachusetts:

The authority of the state to enact this statute is to be [197 U.S. 11, 25]   referred to what is commonly called the police power,-a power which the state did not surrender when becoming a member of the Union under the Constitution. Although this court has refrained frained from any attempt to define the limits of that power, yet it has distinctly recognized the authority of a state to enact quarantine laws and 'health laws of every description;' indeed, all laws that relate to matters completely within its territory and which do not by their necessary operation affect the people of other states. According to settled principles, the police power of a state must be held to embrace, at least, such reasonable regulations established directly by legislative enactment as will protect the public health and the public safety.

Where the Constitution does impose constraints, applicable to states via the Fourteenth Amendment, is that quarantine orders must such that they are the least restrictive means to protect public health given the circumstances, and the right to due process as regards treatment under such orders must be preserved.   An additional constraint, that individuals being confined must be evaluated per the individual's circumstances, may or may not apply here, depending on the specific wording of orders issued, or what exceptions are made available - e.g. an exception allowing asymptomatic people to be out to work in essential functions or for necessary reasons.

I should note here that I am not a lawyer.  I'm basing the above on questions raised and answered when I participated in a tabletop exercise on pandemic in my prior assignment at work - supporting a business unit that writes liability insurance for state and local governments.  There will probably be a few lawsuits coming out of any government orders on the subject, but barring excessive use of power, I'd only be concerned about defense costs, not the potential for damages to be awarded.

[kwellada]

Meanwhile, I'm debating a day trip from Tacoma to Mt. St. Helens to take some late spring photos (especially since we finally have decent weather this week).  Assuming I pack my own sandwiches, I could easily go there and back without interacting with another human.  Just a little daytrip would do much to alleviate the boredom of the Washington quarantine (and for the record, I don't have symptoms nor have I really interacted with people much the past two weeks). 

It's an incredibly surreal time to really have to ponder something that usually takes a split second to decide to do.

[webny99]

One bit of roadgeek trivia - I am finishing a drive from Memphis to Hartford.  There were a remarkable number of Canadian vehicles heading north, presumably snowbirds trying to get home before the border is closed.

You know, I've been wondering about that. Amidst the roads emptying out around the country, I-95 in Georgia and South Carolina seemed to be one of the biggest traffic hot spots in the country this past weekend.

[NWI_Irish96]

One bit of roadgeek trivia - I am finishing a drive from Memphis to Hartford.  There were a remarkable number of Canadian vehicles heading north, presumably snowbirds trying to get home before the border is closed.

You know, I've been wondering about that. Amidst the roads emptying out around the country, I-95 in Georgia and South Carolina seemed to be one of the biggest traffic hot spots in the country this past weekend.

A lot of snowbirds trying to get home before any potential long term mandatory quarantine.

[MikeTheActuary]

One bit of roadgeek trivia - I am finishing a drive from Memphis to Hartford.  There were a remarkable number of Canadian vehicles heading north, presumably snowbirds trying to get home before the border is closed.

You know, I've been wondering about that. Amidst the roads emptying out around the country, I-95 in Georgia and South Carolina seemed to be one of the biggest traffic hot spots in the country this past weekend.

A lot of snowbirds trying to get home before any potential long term mandatory quarantine.

In addition to all the Canadians, I saw a lot of cars that looked like college students heading home, and other vehicles packed (or having car-top carriers, or towing trailers) that indicated people heading home after an extended stay "away". 

Long-distance traffic level seemed in line with what I'm used to seeing -- the roads weren't deserted, but they were pretty free-flowing.   Rest areas seemed extremely busy considering the traffic volume, while restaurant parking lots were fairly empty....probably not surprising , under the circumstances.

But, I'm home now, and am hunkered down until I'm told that I can go into the office (in Montréal) again, or until my father's retirement community calls to let me know that visitors are allowed back on their grounds again / that it's OK for me to come down and move stuff from his old apartment either out or into his new room.

[roadman65]

Closed the libraries for a month in Polk County, FL.  The cause Publix and Walmart closed for the evenings now everyone must pile into the stores in the afternoon.

Question.  If the purpose of limiting hours of the store is to limit the amount of time of contact between folks, then is not creating more people in a short amount of time also creating another incubation period?

[hbelkins]

Needless to say, I have some strong opinions on this. I actually find myself in agreement with Tim on some of these issues. The Ben Franklin quote about safety and liberty comes readily to mind. It's amazing the freedoms people are so willingly eager to surrender just so the government can keep them protected.

We have an interesting situation in Kentucky. A family is basically being held prisoner in its own home because the authorities allege a resident tested positive for the virus. The problem is, he didn't. The man had been hospitalized for COPD and had been moved from ICU into a regular room with another patient before they self-discharged and went home. There's no chance he would have been moved out of isolation into a room with someone else if there were any suspicions he had the virus. And his wife and his attorney say there's nothing in his medical records that indicate he was tested. The authorities are being very closed-mouthed about it and the media isn't pressing the issue.

https://www.kystandard.com/content/wife-reported-nelson-covid-19-case-says-recent-exposure-community-limited

I think we should be able to use some common sense. If my dad was still alive, and I was still looking in on him every day, I would certainly alter my behaviors. I would not even go see him if I had a cold because he was so susceptible to them and if he took a cold,  he'd be down for a week. It's odd. My dad was the toughest man I ever knew. He lost a leg in Korea but could outwork me until he was well into his 60s, but the common cold took him down. People who are at risk should minimize their risk. Those who are in contact with them should use common sense and their own good judgment about public interactions. But don't restrict the rest of us who aren't in those positions.

[sprjus4]

Closed the libraries for a month in Polk County, FL.  The cause Publix and Walmart closed for the evenings now everyone must pile into the stores in the afternoon.

Question.  If the purpose of limiting hours of the store is to limit the amount of time of contact between folks, then is not creating more people in a short amount of time also creating another incubation period?

The reduced hours is across all of their stores. It's to give time for cleaning and restocking.

[DaBigE]

Closed the libraries for a month in Polk County, FL.  The cause Publix and Walmart closed for the evenings now everyone must pile into the stores in the afternoon.

Question.  If the purpose of limiting hours of the store is to limit the amount of time of contact between folks, then is not creating more people in a short amount of time also creating another incubation period?

The reduced hours is across all of their stores. It's to give time for cleaning and restocking.

And in many cases, it's bringing hours to similar what we were used to in the late 80s & 90s (before many larger stores existed/went 24/7). Except for grocery stores, foot traffic has declined, so the higher density really isn't a concern.

[Max Rockatansky]

Ran 14 miles this morning and took a practice route that took me mostly outside the City Limits of Fresno.  I didn't encounter another person over the course of little over an hour and half, seems like I hit on something halfway decent, the only problem is a need some daylight to see.  The gym was still open but I had to do push ups in the garage since I got behind on time.  No wonder if what happened in the Bay Area is gaining momentum to be implemented here. 

[roadman65]

Closed the libraries for a month in Polk County, FL.  The cause Publix and Walmart closed for the evenings now everyone must pile into the stores in the afternoon.

Question.  If the purpose of limiting hours of the store is to limit the amount of time of contact between folks, then is not creating more people in a short amount of time also creating another incubation period?

The reduced hours is across all of their stores. It’s to give time for cleaning and restocking.

And in many cases, it's bringing hours to similar what we were used to in the late 80s & 90s (before many larger stores existed/went 24/7). Except for grocery stores, foot traffic has declined, so the higher density really isn't a concern.

Well that might be a good idea to limit hours as we as a nation are too spoiled.  I hate to agree with Obama, but he was right as far as that is concerned.  I personally think that it may be better to limit store shopping, but the hype needs to go.

I would not mind seeing Sunday Blue Laws back as being a toll collector these days you can't tell the different days anymore.  Plus closing early keeps traffic down at night as sometimes at 2 AM many headlights are on many different roadways.  A sight I never saw at that hour of the morning.   Traffic signals used to be on flash mode as the traffic did not warrant an operational signal then.

I know that good will someday come of this, but whether a week or a month or a year, is remained to be seen.

[LM117]

An executive order is being issued in NC (my home state) today to close all restaurants and bars for dine-in customers. Takeouts and deliveries will still be allowed.

https://governor.nc.gov/news/north-carolina-close-restaurants-and-bars-dine-customers-allow-takeout-and-delivery-operations

Meanwhile here in VA, there are 67 confirmed cases and 2 have died. No confirmed cases in my neck of the woods so far (*knock on wood*).

https://wset.com/news/coronavirus/67-cases-of-coronavirus-confirmed-in-va-gov-northam-closes-dmv-offices

[roadman65]

Yup McDonalds up the street from where I live only is doing take out or drive up.

I am more worried about the people's state of mind over the actual virus as panic creates fear which leads to people doing more things.

Then the political aspect of this being an election year as many die hard registered party members will seize the moment to see who's leaders can come up with a better solution to handle the problem and escalate more anger on top of what has been started over the past two decades.

[sprjus4]

The Outer Banks is now closing its doors, even trips to Currituck County that require travel thru the county. If only that Mid-Currituck Bridge was built... 

Most of Outer Banks shuts down to visitors

The Outer Banks is closing access to visitors beginning at 2 p.m. Tuesday, according to a news release from Dare County officials.

It's in response to the Center for Disease Control's guidelines to avoid discretionary travel.

"While there are currently no individuals who have tested positive for COVID-19 in Dare County, officials weighed the potential benefits for community health along with the tremendous impacts these restrictions have on our community,"  a news release said. "These restrictions may be inconvenient, disappointing and have financial impacts, however, they were made in the interest of public safety to limit the spread of COVID-19."

The novel coronavirus sweeping through the world causes COVID-19, a respiratory illness.

Checkpoints will be established at entry points to Dare County and no visitors will be allowed access, according to the release. Permanent residents, non-resident property owners and non-resident employees of Dare County businesses are being asked to review entry guidelines online.

Re-entry permits from previous years will not be accepted, the release said.

Visitors will not be allowed to travel through Dare to access Currituck County, where Corrolla is, Hyde County, where Ocracoke Island is, or Tyrell County. People who reside, own property or work in Corolla or Ocracoke will be allowed entry.

A dedicated help line has been set up to answer questions from the public: 252-475-5008.

In North Carolina, at least 39 people have tested positive for the coronavirus. In Virginia, 67 people have tested positive.

The Outer Banks hospital has implemented visitor restrictions. Only one immediate family member over the age of 16 who does not exhibit any symptoms of illness may visit a patient in the hospital. The hospital will also screen patients and visitors.

[1995hoo]

This one will make some of your heads explode: Maryland has gone to all-cashless tolling at all facilities until further notice.

https://www.stardem.com/news/local_news/mdta-announces-move-to-all-electronic-tolling/article_075040c5-cef2-5d98-ab4b-79d3eaa9d0f0.html

[roadman65]

So did PA on the turnpike system.

[DaBigE]

Illinois did as well.

[J N Winkler]

Illinois did as well.

Yes, even though it has coin baskets.  The buzz phrase in the email was something like "reduce person-to-person and person-to-surface contact."

[Scott5114]

I think we should be able to use some common sense. [...] People who are at risk should minimize their risk. Those who are in contact with them should use common sense and their own good judgment about public interactions. But don't restrict the rest of us who aren't in those positions.

The problem is that the American public is full of selfish assholes who will do whatever they want without thinking about the consequences for anyone else. You would know better than to visit your elderly father and risk giving him the virus. There are people who would be like "This whole coronavirus thing is overblown, there's no way I could have it, I'm gonna go see Dad!" and end up murdering him with their own stupidity.

So we have to overcompensate because some folks are too fixated on what they want to do to the exclusion of all else, including is this safe for the people around me. They should use their good judgement, but they don't even get as far as using any judgement at all. Me want, me do. That's as far as their line of thinking goes.

[DaBigE]

I think we should be able to use some common sense. [...] People who are at risk should minimize their risk. Those who are in contact with them should use common sense and their own good judgment about public interactions. But don't restrict the rest of us who aren't in those positions.

The problem is that the American public is full of selfish assholes who will do whatever they want without thinking about the consequences for anyone else. You would know better than to visit your elderly father and risk giving him the virus. There are people who would be like "This whole coronavirus thing is overblown, there's no way I could have it, I'm gonna go see Dad!" and end up murdering him with their own stupidity.

Hit the nail right on the head. Comment sections all over the internet are full of these specimens.