TX: Ports to Plains corridor study

[TheBox]

Contrary to popular belief, US-87 (future I-27) between south of Lubbock and north of San Angelo is already a 4-lane divided expressway actually. Just needs a bypass for O'Donnell?. Lamesa (where it branches and splits with TX-349 which is 4-lane but undivided for a few years now), Sterling City (which is where it reunites with TX-158 which is also 4-lane but mostly undivided) and of course San Angelo itself.

They even built a Big Spring bypass several years ago


Future I-27W (a.k.a. TX-349 and TX-158) will have to be divided before any bypasses are done like Patricia and Garden City, later down the road (no pun intended), with the hardest part being Midland itself.
They are building an overpass over TX-137 west of Garden City incase that isn't finished already.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Lubbock,+TX/San+Angelo,+TX/@31.5516757,-100.6282402,56996m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m15!4m14!1m5!1m1!1s0x86fe12add37ddd39:0x1af0042922e84287!2m2!1d-101.8456417!2d33.5845617!1m5!1m1!1s0x8657e583a53b7191:0x827e3d0b3754c742!2m2!1d-100.4370375!2d31.4637723!3e0!5i1?authuser=1&entry=ttu

The problem is anything south of San Angelo (via US-277 and later US-83), cause it is all 2-lane undivided and this is before any bypasses too...............except for Del Rio which is a Super-2 bypass.

[Bobby5280]

Much of US-87 between Lubbock and San Angelo is indeed 4-lane divided. But not much of the existing main lanes are up to current Interstate standards. A lot of that will have to be re-built. Still, an upgrade to Interstate quality is very do-able since it looks like hardly any new ROW would be needed between towns. There aren't many properties adjacent to the existing US-87 highway that would be in any danger of having to be removed to make room for upgraded main lanes or frontage roads.

Lamesa will obviously need a new terrain bypass, preferably to the East but not too far East due to the drop-off of terrain about 10 miles East. TX-349, which could become a I-27 spur (or "I-27W") would have to skirt South of Lamesa to hook into that Eastern I-27 bypass.

Sterling City would need a new terrain bypass, but it wouldn't be as long as the one for Lamesa. US-87 in Carlsbad, TX could be upgraded in place. US-87 would be fairly easy to upgrade coming into the NW side of San Angelo. But once the frontage roads end at Humble Road near the OC Fisher Dam US-87 gets tightly packed in with development. TX DOT would have to build an elevated expressway over the existing divided street in order to connect it with the Houston Harte Expressway (US-277).

The problem is anything south of San Angelo (via US-277 and later US-83), cause it is all 2-lane undivided and this is before any bypasses too...............except for Del Rio which is a Super-2 bypass.

I think there is a good chance an I-27 route South of San Angelo will have to be built on a lot of new terrain alignment to get proper grading and curve geometry. El Dorado and Sonora will need bypasses. I'm not sure how TX DOT would proceed with upgrading US-277 to Interstate standard from Sonora down to Del Rio. The terrain gets increasingly hilly South of I-10. That might put more pressure on TX DOT to upgrade as much of the existing highway as possible.

[kphoger]

I'm not sure how TX DOT would proceed with upgraded US-277 to Interstate standard from Sonora down to Del Rio.

Yeah, that's a wild thought.  I'd love to drive it through Buffalo Draw, with its northern and southern approaches.  It would probably become one of the most underappreciated stretches of Interstate.

[TheBox]

Nothing new, just some progress of them getting I-27 designated as early as 2024 whiling for input

https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/local-news/update-on-the-ports-to-plains-corridor-naming-interstate-27/amp/

https://abc7amarillo.com/amp/news/local/progress-made-on-ports-to-plains-corridor-project-aimed-at-enhancing-transportation-and-safety-in-texas-panhandle-lauren-garduno-milton-pax-dumas-texas

[Bobby5280]

That's funny. That news anchor at that Amarillo TV station worked at our ABC affiliate in Lawton for quite a while.

Aside from that, I'm glad to see there is considerably more official effort at extending I-27 both North and South. That would give the Ports to Plains Corridor greater aspirations than merely being a 4-lane divided highway with at-grade intersections and driveways. Not to mention it would (eventually) provide a means to get the US-64/87 project from Texline to Raton fixed properly.

If the US Congress passes the resolution to designate the Ports to Plains Corridor as I-27 (or Future I-27) that would at least get it on the books. According to the news article the Senate has already passed it; now it's up to the House. Who knows how that will go. Even if the resolution is passed much of it will still be an unfunded mandate. But at least the intentions will be more than just a rumor.

[TheBox]

They're also building another overpass south of Woodrow
https://maps.app.goo.gl/K7Tq1FjUckkLfWHk6?g_st=ic

[TheBox]

As for Midland, how do we connect TX-349 and TX-158 with Loop TX-250?

[74/171FAN]

As for Midland, how do we connect TX-349 and TX-158 with Loop TX-250?

What do you mean?  TX 349 is already concurrent with I-20 at the west end of TX Loop 250, and TX 158 has a concurrency with TX Loop 250 heading north from I-20 there.

[TheBox]

As for Midland, how do we connect TX-349 and TX-158 with Loop TX-250?

What do you mean?  TX 349 is already concurrent with I-20 at the west end of TX Loop 250, and TX 158 has a concurrency with TX Loop 250 heading north from I-20 there.

What I mean is how do we make space for the freeway (TX-349 and TX-158), frontage roads and direct connector ramps?

There's lots of businesses at the TX-158 @ I-20 intersection (even if they're all industrial) whiling the TX-349 @ Loop 250 is tight with a sports complex and a cemetery on each side of TX-349

[Bobby5280]

Actually TX-349 does not reach Loop-250 at all. It diverts to the West about 3.5 miles North of the 250 loop. TX-349 goes West around the North side of Midland and then cuts down to meet the TX-191 freeway halfway between Midland and Odessa. It's mostly a 2-lane road with one limited access exit for TX-158. It looks like this portion of TX-349 has enough ROW available to be expanded into a freeway flanked by frontage roads. Some additional ROW will be needed to make a Y interchange with TX-191.

[TheBox]

Looking at the I-27 interactive map, West Texas may not depend on DFW (or in the case of Dollar General, Longview in East Texas...........or San Antonio if closer to I-10) anymore as far as distribution is concerned, due to the potential economic benefits and growth from I-27.

https://txdot.mysocialpinpoint.com/ports-to-plains/map#/

West Texas only has their own Walmart, O'Reilly, and Family Dollar distribution centers (still too far from El Paso, not that it matters to the last one)
Currently DFW distributes Target, the Pizza trinity (Domino's, Papa Johns, Little Caesars), McDonalds, Walgreens, CVS, AutoZone and to an lesser extent Costco all for West Texas (among other aeras around them).

Same with El Paso but replace DFW with Phoenix AZ (and in the case of Walmart Albuquerque NM).

[edwaleni]

I asked if the Ports to Plains would be better served using new rail from Laredo/Del Rio and up to Abilene where it could reach several ways to serve the RM basin. Cheaper to build rail than to build a 4 lane highway and maintain it for 30 years I assume.

I was reminded that there are already 2 ways to serve that audience today by rail.

From Del Rio to El Paso and then north over Raton Pass.

From Laredo to DFW and all cites west.

The one debit on rail was timing. It would probably take a railroad 3 times as long to move a consist to Denver from Laredo than a truck would on I-27.

[bwana39]

I asked if the Ports to Plains would be better served using new rail from Laredo/Del Rio and up to Abilene where it could reach several ways to serve the RM basin. Cheaper to build rail than to build a 4 lane highway and maintain it for 30 years I assume.

I was reminded that there are already 2 ways to serve that audience today by rail.

From Del Rio to El Paso and then north over Raton Pass.

From Laredo to DFW and all cites west.

The one debit on rail was timing. It would probably take a railroad 3 times as long to move a consist to Denver from Laredo than a truck would on I-27.

Rail is slow because of the railroads trying to build trains that are complete (as opposed to needing cars switched out.) The railroads only carry the most profitable loads.  The problem is the railroads don't want additional business. They have found their sweet spot and are content to languor in it.

[kphoger]

Rail is slow because of the railroads trying to build trains that are complete (as opposed to needing cars switched out.) The railroads only carry the most profitable loads.

Or/And:  Much rail transport operates on tonnage, not time.

[bwana39]

Rail is slow because of the railroads trying to build trains that are complete (as opposed to needing cars switched out.) The railroads only carry the most profitable loads.

Or/And:  Much rail transport operates on tonnage, not time.

They bill on tonnage, not time. There used to be express freight trains. Most of the time, it just is not in their interests to put time into the equation. There are some full load trailer or container trains that are time based too. There is minimal competition. They operate more like a single vehicle cartage company than a consolidate freight hauler.

[edwaleni]

[JayhawkCO]

I'm confused what this map is supposed to be showing me. If you go out of the way, but drive 15mph faster, you can get from Laredo to St. Louis a little quicker?

[bwana39]

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Laredo,+Texas/St.+Louis,+Missouri/@34.9897001,-97.6310629,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8660c06ca7f93d25:0xb4407a5349567491!2m2!1d-99.5075519!2d27.5035613!1m5!1m1!1s0x87d8b4a9faed8ef9:0xbe39eaca22bbe05b!2m2!1d-90.1994042!2d38.6270025!3e0?entry=ttu

Either way it is still 5 hours out of the way? (Laredo to ST Louis through Texarkana or Tulsa.....)

[Bobby5280]

If commercial vehicles heading from Laredo to St Louis wanted to bypass I-35 the US-83/US-277/I-44 corridor would be a better alternative than driving up to Del Rio and then clear up to Amarillo before heading East. That's going way out of the way.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm confused what this map is supposed to be showing me. If you go out of the way, but drive 15mph faster, you can get from Laredo to St. Louis a little quicker?

I think it's assuming there will be more traffic congestion along the I-35 route hence it being 15MPH on average slower. Possibly if you hit Dallas and Austin at the wrong time and OKC can have traffic issues on I-35 but it's not very often and a bypass is planned. I-35 is being improved in Austin and there is a growing push to expand SH-130 which bypasses Austin traffic. Dallas is the only real issue but that can be overcome with planning out trip times.

[Revive 755]

I think it's assuming there will be more traffic congestion along the I-35 route hence it being 15MPH on average slower. Possibly if you hit Dallas and Austin at the wrong time and OKC can have traffic issues on I-35 but it's not very often and a bypass is planned. I-35 is being improved in Austin and there is a growing push to expand SH-130 which bypasses Austin traffic. Dallas is the only real issue but that can be overcome with planning out trip times.

Aren't I-69 and I-369 (in combination with a few other corridors) going to provide a better alternative to I-35 for any Laredo to St. Louis traffic?  Or is the Houston area going to be too big of problem and in need of a super bypass?

[Bobby5280]

Driving through the middle of Houston can be a real bitch at times. The downtown area is going to be a real mess once they're able to get started on that I-10/I-45/I-69 expansion project. Tolls on Loop 8 and The Grand Parkway can get pretty expensive (especially for trucks).

Plus, I-69 isn't going to be a functional Laredo-St Louis route for a long time. Aside from the I-69 projects in Texas, I-57 would need to be completed between I-40 and I-55. And that's not such a direct route since I-55 kind of bends backwards to get up to St Louis. If MO DOT can do build more grade separations on US-67 between Poplar Bluff and the Southern outskirts of St Louis that might make a I-69/I-369/I-30/I-57/US-67 combo a better route to dodge Dallas.

I still think TX DOT needs to put more work into the US-281 corridor going North out of San Antonio and up to Wichita Falls. Even if it's not full Interstate quality (but with segments of freeway) it could still be an effective relief route for I-35. Four-laning US-277 between Abilene and San Angelo would also help. That and a completed Ports to Plains Corridor would make Del Rio a more attractive border crossing for commercial traffic. They could bypass the crush of activity at Laredo and bypass the San Antonio, Austin and DFW metros and hit I-35 in OKC.

[Plutonic Panda]

I think it's assuming there will be more traffic congestion along the I-35 route hence it being 15MPH on average slower. Possibly if you hit Dallas and Austin at the wrong time and OKC can have traffic issues on I-35 but it's not very often and a bypass is planned. I-35 is being improved in Austin and there is a growing push to expand SH-130 which bypasses Austin traffic. Dallas is the only real issue but that can be overcome with planning out trip times.

Aren't I-69 and I-369 (in combination with a few other corridors) going to provide a better alternative to I-35 for any Laredo to St. Louis traffic?  Or is the Houston area going to be too big of problem and in need of a super bypass?

Dallas and Houston both need a super bypass. Houston kind of has one but soon sprawl will engulf it and make it another suburban tollway.

What they really need to do is build elevated lanes through the cities they have VERY few exits(I mean like maybe one or two) to create and elevated bypass of city traffic. I'm not sure if they could build fuel areas that exclusively service these bypass which themselves would be elevated as well. I don't think there's anything like that in the world so it'd be a challenge.

[kphoger]

If commercial vehicles heading from Laredo to St Louis wanted to bypass I-35 the US-83/US-277/I-44 corridor would be a better alternative than driving up to Del Rio and then clear up to Amarillo before heading East. That's going way out of the way.

I just did this a few months ago.

Wichita → I-35 → Oklahoma City
Oklahoma City → I-44 → Wichita Falls
Wichita Falls → US-277 → Abilene
Abilene → US-83 → Uvalde
(cut over on FM-117 back to I-35, but only because our hotel reservation was in Cotulla)

It's a wonderful route for bypassing I-35 in Texas, but I'm not so sure a lot of truckers would want to deal with the hills and curves between the Dry Frio River and TX-39.

[Bobby5280]

What they really need to do is build elevated lanes through the cities they have VERY few exits(I mean like maybe one or two) to create and elevated bypass of city traffic. I'm not sure if they could build fuel areas that exclusively service these bypass which themselves would be elevated as well. I don't think there's anything like that in the world so it'd be a challenge.

Elevated express routes thru urban areas would be a non-starter for multiple factors. It's difficult to build elevated highways in urban areas due to public opposition; they dislike the look of elevated highways. The structures would cost a great deal to build and maintain yet carry limited amounts of thru traffic. That could lead to some really high toll rates. The limited number of exits along an elevated structure would make emergency service access pretty bad.

Turnpikes and even freeways can be designed with very limited amounts of access. It just comes down to the choices of where exits and interchanges are built and NOT built. Some turnpikes in the US already have very limited amounts of access and long distances between exits/interchanges. Heck, I-44 between Lawton and Oklahoma City has very little access. In urban areas a super highway and surface street traffic can be isolated from each other via the super highway having few exits and no frontage roads built alongside it.

The DFW and Houston metros both need relief routes. The trick is building up corridors that could function in such a manner.

In the Houston region the combo of US-290, the Grand Parkway and US-90 to Beaumont could work as a Northern bypass. Farther North the TX-105 corridor has potential, but it is getting covered up with development in the Montgomery, Conroe and Cleveland areas. North of that we're talking Future I-14 from College Station to Huntsville. I-14 could work as a Northern East-West relief route around Houston if it had an alignment good enough to attract thru traffic.

US-281 could turn into an effective North-South relief route for I-35 to bypass Austin and DFW. The US-380 and US-82 corridors North of DFW could be additional East-West super highway corridors.