Birmingham Northern Beltline (I-422, I-959)

[Strider]

Since you're bringing up an old comment, please re-read the second line of mine in that old comment you quoted.  That is why the Northern Beltline is financially foolish.

I responded to an old comment directed to me. It's not like I resurrected a dead thread. You don't build a bypass for the benefit of metro traffic, it is just a byproduct that it helps since you remove some interstate traffic from the junction and you then put up signs that let the truckers passing through know they HAVE to use it. So that helps everybody.

I don't think it will remove some interstate traffic from the junction.. because going straight is usually faster and easier than going around the city unless it is to get to their destinations. It's more like a Belt Route (see I-215) than a beltway for I-22 travelers since it's I-422. But i'd just put I-22 on the beltline and have it extended to end at I-20. the remaining route between I-20/59/459 and the future I-22 can just remain I-422.

[codyg1985]

I still say that a bypass for I-65 through traffic is needed, and the Northern Beltline won't fix that because it is so far out of the way.

[froggie]

A few points against such a bypass:

- I don't think there's as much I-65 through traffic as some are thinking...certainly not enough to make the expense worthwhile.  AT BEST, I-65 has maybe 10K of through traffic daily...likely less than that.

- Topography.

- Existing development that pretty much precludes any potential I-65 bypass that wouldn't have excessive mileage (more than 10 miles) over taking existing I-65.  I-459 works for I-20/59 because it's only 2 miles longer than taking I-59 through town...and is actually a mile-and-a-half shorter than staying on I-20.  You're just not going to get that for I-65.

[Tourian]

It doesn't help enough to be cost-effective.  That's been my point since the get-go.

Right, right. They should just wait until it is desperately needed and by then ROW costs will be astronomical or impossible to secure and then people will say they shoulda built it years ago before traffic got so bad.

But what do I know, I just live here. You out of towners continue to weigh in on what Birmingham drivers do and do not need.

[Revive 755]

Does Alabama not have corridor protection like Illinois does so they can protect the ROW early and then build the facility a decade or two later?

[froggie]

Tourian:  you're still completely missing my point.  Bottom line:  THE NORTHERN BELTLINE IS NOT NEEDED.  To build it would be a complete waste of money...money that could be used to fix where the traffic problems REALLY are:  in the middle of Birmingham (or on 280).

But what do I know, I just live here. You out of towners continue to weigh in on what Birmingham drivers do and do not need.

Quite the isolationist attitude to have. But the fact that ALDOT is actively pursuing FEDERAL money in order to build it means that the Federal taxpayer should have an opportunity to weigh in.  Get your local officials to stop seeking the Federal trough, and I'll stop "weighing in".

[Tourian]

They force the through trucks to use it. So even if going straight through is quicker it will relieve stress.

The NB is needed because it creates a complete loop. No one ever suggests just making half of one because it is stupid. They never built it because a long time ago the governor of the state was a racist pig headed jerk that kept all interstate development out of Birmingham. Now we as a transportation hub are getting what we need.

[Grzrd]

This article reports that FHWA is now estimating the cost of completion for the Northern Beltline to be $5.45 billion; ALDOT still estimates the cost to be lower than $4.7 billion.  Estimated completion date for the entire project is December 2048.

[froggie]

In other words, it's an even bigger waste of money now than ALDOT is predicting.

[Tourian]

And it is still going forward and will be a big boost to the metro area. 4.7, 5.45 do I hear 6? Its chump change and irrelevant.

[Anthony_JK]

They force the through trucks to use it. So even if going straight through is quicker it will relieve stress.

The NB is needed because it creates a complete loop. No one ever suggests just making half of one because it is stupid. They never built it because a long time ago the governor of the state was a racist pig headed jerk that kept all interstate development out of Birmingham. Now we as a transportation hub are getting what we need.

So would the proposed Dixie Freeway in NOLA, the Baton Rouge Metro Loop, and the Lafayette Metro Expressway....and none of them have been built merely because "building half a loop is stupid". There are far, far better and more important priorities than a full loop around Birmingham....just as there are in Lafayette, BTR, and NOLA. Try taking off your rose colored spectacles for a bit.

[lordsutch]

All that's really needed (and that's a stretch...) is the NE quadrant to get I-65 trucks over to I-459. I'd rather they spend the money on US 280 or some other route where there's sufficient traffic demand.

[codyg1985]

I'd love to see the money spent on upgrading the I-65 corridor and US 280 through Birmingham metro.

[froggie]

And it is still going forward and will be a big boost to the metro area. 4.7, 5.45 do I hear 6? Its chump change and irrelevant.

$6B is not chump change, but you're right on one thing.  The road is irrelevant.  Also will not be even close to a boost to the metro area as you think it'll be.

All that's really needed (and that's a stretch...) is the NE quadrant to get I-65 trucks over to I-459. I'd rather they spend the money on US 280 or some other route where there's sufficient traffic demand.

I'd love to see the money spent on upgrading the I-65 corridor and US 280 through Birmingham metro.

From what I figure, the $5B+ they want to spend on the Northern Beltline would adequately pay for a complete Malfunction Junction (I-20/59/65) overhaul, put the 20/59 viaduct downtown below-grade where it belongs, extend I-22 to I-20/59, widen the I-20 bridges east of 59, and major improvements to 280.  Benefits *MUCH MORE* people than the Northern Beltline ever will.

[Tourian]

Well its a good thing for us that your made up figures and opinions dont affect ALDOT.

[froggie]

I suppose you either didn't notice (or, more likely, don't care) that I'm NOT the only one on this forum saying the Northern Beltline isn't needed.

[RoadWarrior56]

If the northern beltline is supposed to be completed by '48, I will either be dead or a decrepit old man by then (age 92).  I first heard about plans for a northern bypass of Birmingham back in '83 when I was still in my 20's.  So these days, it takes a virtual lifetime to get a road built from conception to ribbon cutting.

[codyg1985]

One of the problems I have with the BNB is that it is taking away money from other projects in Alabama that could qualify for ADHS funding. Here in Huntsville, the construction of the interchange of US 72/Corridor V at Moores Mill Road and Shields Road, which has been needed for over a decade, has been pushed back ten years, yet the project was targeted for ADHS funding prior to the passage of MAP-21 which should qualify the project for 100% federal funding. However, for some strange reason, this is not important enough for ALDOT to pursue. I suspect that money is targeted to go to the BNB as well. The interchange also costs a drop in the bucket compared to the BNB ($60 million versus $5.4 billion).

[Tourian]

I suppose you either didn't notice (or, more likely, don't care) that I'm NOT the only one on this forum saying the Northern Beltline isn't needed.

I dont care. What is this, third grade? If I dont get as many popularity votes as little Timmy I should go pout in the corner? Get real.

X and X-1 are the highest in state priorities. Nothing in Huntsvillr could possibly come close. This doesnt mean they will never do corridor V it just means not now. Give it 50 years perhaps.

[froggie]

I dont care. What is this, third grade? If I dont get as many popularity votes as little Timmy I should go pout in the corner? Get real.

Just pointing out that others share the same viewpoint as I do, while you seen fixated on me for some reason.

X and X-1 are the highest in state priorities. Nothing in Huntsvillr could possibly come close. This doesnt mean they will never do corridor V it just means not now. Give it 50 years perhaps.

X-1 is only a "priority" in terms of development.  As has been pointed out both by me and several others, there are plenty of projects, including within Birmingham/Jefferson County alone, that would serve far more traffic than the Northern Beltline ever will.  And could be done much less expensively.

If you want me to shut up about it (something you've said previously), convince your state to do the project *WITHOUT* Federal funding.  If you need an example, look at the state above you.  As long as Alabama is sucking on the Federal money teet for this project, Federal taxpayers can and should have a say on it.

[Tourian]

This a forum. Your comments can be checked and challenged just like any one else's. No one is fixated on you and no one told you to shut up. On page 6 you made some lame comment about me responding to one of your "older" comments. I shouldve known then what was going on. But no more.

im glad x-1 is going forward and I hope the time to build it is less then anticipated.

[31E]

Right, right. They should just wait until it is desperately needed and by then ROW costs will be astronomical or impossible to secure and then people will say they shoulda built it years ago before traffic got so bad.

But what do I know, I just live here. You out of towners continue to weigh in on what Birmingham drivers do and do not need.

I definitely agree. Road planning based primarily on present needs borders on incompetence; since it takes 10-20 years to build a road, if you build based on present needs, your road capacities will lag 10-20 years behind what you should have. I've seen this 20 year lag take place in some cities and towns and it doesn't turn out well; oftentimes when a new connection is needed the lane is covered with new housing, whereas 20 years prior it was farmland. Planning 20-30 years ahead is best IMO. In the few places that consistently stay on top of future traffic demand, the consensus about the road building is "it seems like too much but it really isn't".

If the northern beltline is supposed to be completed by '48, I will either be dead or a decrepit old man by then (age 92).  I first heard about plans for a northern bypass of Birmingham back in '83 when I was still in my 20's.  So these days, it takes a virtual lifetime to get a road built from conception to ribbon cutting.

65 years to build a road is a ridiculous length of time. TN 840 took 26 years to go from a gleam in Lamar Alexander's eye to a completed roadway, and it was built without any federal money. Phoenix's newer freeways were also built largely without federal funding. You would think that federal funding would speed up a project, but it seems that states have to go it alone to get anything done nowadays. Plus it keeps people like froggie who don't know anything about the area's transportation needs from whining about it.

[Tourian]

To be fair the project has only gotten real momentum in the past five years and no work has been done. I22 OTOH took every bit of 35 years.

To see how Birmingham will benefit one just needs to look at a map and how all the communities grew and prospered around 459. In one direction. Its like were butted up against a bay or river. Fultondale, jasper, pinson etc are sleepy rural little podunk towns compared to Hoover, vestavia, trussville. For thesr places, just getting a travel center, a motel 6 and a CVS out on the bypass is going to be a huge boost to their revenue.

[NE2]

Huh? How will Birmingham benefit from the suburbs getting sprawl?

[seicer]

Without being a jerk, there were some nasty comments being lobbied by ADOT lobbyists on here. Let's give respect to some long-time forum and MTR members on here and stop being dicks.

That said, a northern bypass does nothing for Birmingham. It serves a rural and underdeveloped area and would only benefit suburbanites and a rural county seeking to develop more land for resource sucking sprawl. There, I said it. With all of the momentum that Birmingham has going for it right now, with quite a few urban development projects underway and others that will be coming online in the near future, I'm excited more for its urban core than anything.