Traffic Signals that turn red that do not need to have the phase

[roadman65]

In New Jersey, my home state we used to have two signals there that would turn red that did not need to turn red.  One located on EB NJ 28 at CR 617 in Roselle Park was always red when the left turn protected left phase was happening for the same direction of traffic.  I believe originally it was for potential pedestrians who were crossing NJ 28, and started way before detector loops were put into use.  The other is in Linden, NJ on US 1 & 9 at the Bayway Refinery entrance going SB.

The latter used to be green 24/7 up until a 1988 repaving contract when the signal was activated to turn red whenever a vehicle left the refinery who never crosses paths with US 1 & 9 S Bound directly.  If you look at GSV you can see the configuration of that intersection where left turning motorists coming out of the refinery turn left into the lanes coming from I-278 which later to the south merge into US 1 & 9 S Bound.  You may argue that its because to allow protection for the merging vehicles when merging, but if that were the case the same protection would be granted for all I-278 traffic merging on to the sane merge.
https://goo.gl/maps/Sztw87zdvRGBHXW47
https://goo.gl/maps/3XrBpRf3FEErA4GF8


Anyway, besides NYC which has all timers from old analogue click boxes where one must stop for potential pedestrains in crosswalks, are there places that have an unnecessary signal phase where no obstruction is present?

[hotdogPi]

https://goo.gl/maps/B5HH1BtjYYkSJxz39 on the channelization lane. Its normal cycle is green ball → red for 2 seconds → green right arrow → red for 2 seconds → repeat.

[ErmineNotyours]

Southbound Logan Avenue turning to Airport Way.  It used to be green all the time unless there was a pedestrian activation, and I would hope most peds would instead cross under the bridge a bit to the north.  Within the past year or two, they changed it so that NB Logan traffic turning onto Airport Way causes the through turning traffic to stop because left turning traffic couldn't or wouldn't merge properly.

https://goo.gl/maps/Sztw87zdvRGBHXW47

There is a pedestrian activated button, but one that activates a traffic light, not a sign.  Bonus points for someone pushing the disabled car.

[Amtrakprod]

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8917717,-77.0166112,3a,75y,106.44h,75.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srgmrNdpPzRwnFYFQGTIM-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[mrsman]

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8917717,-77.0166112,3a,75y,106.44h,75.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srgmrNdpPzRwnFYFQGTIM-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This is a weird one.  In the original configuration, the thru signals on Penn Ave were always green, as there was no reason for red.

But now, given the median bike lane that is controlled by the thru signals, you need to have it be red so as not to have a conflict between bikes and left turns.  The thru traffic in the thru lanes stop because there is no room to give everyone their own signal.

A careful re-alignment of the signals could avoid the need to have a red signal here, but given its proximity to the Capitol, DC is very sensitive to sightlines and will not allow overhead signals here.  Plus, the median signals have to be removable to accommodate the Inauguration parade.

[webny99]

This right turn movement always has either a green light or a green arrow, unless the Walk button is activated (hence the "No Turn on Red" sign). However, I don't remember if the arrow turns red or not. My instinct tells me probably not, but I'll have to notice next time I'm in the area.

[Amtrakprod]

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8917717,-77.0166112,3a,75y,106.44h,75.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srgmrNdpPzRwnFYFQGTIM-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This is a weird one.  In the original configuration, the thru signals on Penn Ave were always green, as there was no reason for red.

But now, given the median bike lane that is controlled by the thru signals, you need to have it be red so as not to have a conflict between bikes and left turns.  The thru traffic in the thru lanes stop because there is no room to give everyone their own signal.

A careful re-alignment of the signals could avoid the need to have a red signal here, but given its proximity to the Capitol, DC is very sensitive to sightlines and will not allow overhead signals here.  Plus, the median signals have to be removable to accommodate the Inauguration parade.

They just need bike signals and a always green light with a straight arrow.


iPhone

[mrsman]

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8917717,-77.0166112,3a,75y,106.44h,75.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srgmrNdpPzRwnFYFQGTIM-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This is a weird one.  In the original configuration, the thru signals on Penn Ave were always green, as there was no reason for red.

But now, given the median bike lane that is controlled by the thru signals, you need to have it be red so as not to have a conflict between bikes and left turns.  The thru traffic in the thru lanes stop because there is no room to give everyone their own signal.

A careful re-alignment of the signals could avoid the need to have a red signal here, but given its proximity to the Capitol, DC is very sensitive to sightlines and will not allow overhead signals here.  Plus, the median signals have to be removable to accommodate the Inauguration parade.

They just need bike signals and a always green light with a straight arrow.


iPhone

Agreed.  But given the rules on sightlines overhead signals won't be placed here, and I can't imagine how they would get two* green lights with a straight arrow without using an overhead or mast arm signal.

*I believe two are required, just as two are required for most signal indications.  If just one were required, the one on the right could be converted to a green arrow and the one on the left can be a bike signal.

[RobbieL2415]

There was once a left arrow signal with a red ball where the red ball would illuminate with the arrows.  I think it was just a programming error.
There's a new installation at a T intersection near my house with a right turn doghouse that goes to red. The old lights went straight to protected right but this one has to cycle through before going to it.

[DrSmith]

For the 1&9/278 situation mentioned at the top of the page, I wonder if using the red phase on 1&9 southbound is to manage slow trucks merging into the left lane. It provides some ability for the truck to get some speed and the other traffic to be delayed a bit and have to start from a stop. So with the left merge, potentially a safety consideration.

[mrsman]

In New Jersey, my home state we used to have two signals there that would turn red that did not need to turn red.  One located on EB NJ 28 at CR 617 in Roselle Park was always red when the left turn protected left phase was happening for the same direction of traffic.  I believe originally it was for potential pedestrians who were crossing NJ 28, and started way before detector loops were put into use.  The other is in Linden, NJ on US 1 & 9 at the Bayway Refinery entrance going SB.

The latter used to be green 24/7 up until a 1988 repaving contract when the signal was activated to turn red whenever a vehicle left the refinery who never crosses paths with US 1 & 9 S Bound directly.  If you look at GSV you can see the configuration of that intersection where left turning motorists coming out of the refinery turn left into the lanes coming from I-278 which later to the south merge into US 1 & 9 S Bound.  You may argue that its because to allow protection for the merging vehicles when merging, but if that were the case the same protection would be granted for all I-278 traffic merging on to the sane merge.
https://goo.gl/maps/Sztw87zdvRGBHXW47
https://goo.gl/maps/3XrBpRf3FEErA4GF8


Anyway, besides NYC which has all timers from old analogue click boxes where one must stop for potential pedestrains in crosswalks, are there places that have an unnecessary signal phase where no obstruction is present?

It seems that whenever the refinery outbound traffic has green, pedestrians may cross on green on the crosswalk that is south of the refinery entrance.  There may never be many pedestrians here, but there is a marked cross-walk.

[paulthemapguy]

Came across this signal at an onramp in Toledo, OH.  I don't see why it would need a red phase in this direction.

https://goo.gl/maps/mXEA8K8W2wtYLoDk8

[kphoger]

Came across this signal at an onramp in Toledo, OH.  I don't see why it would need a red phase in this direction.

https://goo.gl/maps/mXEA8K8W2wtYLoDk8

Even the pedestrian phase wouldn't require a red light, correct?

[JCinSummerfield]

Came across this signal at an onramp in Toledo, OH.  I don't see why it would need a red phase in this direction.

I drive this every day to work.  There are no pedestrians crossing Manhattan right there.

https://goo.gl/maps/mXEA8K8W2wtYLoDk8

Even the pedestrian phase wouldn't require a red light, correct?

[SectorZ]

https://goo.gl/maps/CN3A3xC7rz55k14M6

The right turn on Lakeview Ave not only has a right-turn arrow, it has it by itself while the lights next to it are straight green arrows. No crosswalks or other things cause it to go red, it just does. As you can see from the other side of VFW Hwy, you can't even take a left onto Lakeview (legally at least).

I actually asked the city about it and as they tend to do with most problems there, they ignored my question.

[kphoger]

Came across this signal at an onramp in Toledo, OH.  I don't see why it would need a red phase in this direction.

https://goo.gl/maps/mXEA8K8W2wtYLoDk8

Even the pedestrian phase wouldn't require a red light, correct?

I drive this every day to work.  There are no pedestrians crossing Manhattan right there.

(fixed your quote string)

I'm not talking about pedestrians crossing Manhattan.  I'm talking about this signalized crosswalk.

A green left turn arrow would conflict with their movement, but that's not a problem with a green ball.

I agree that through-traffic should never face a red right.

[jakeroot]

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8917717,-77.0166112,3a,75y,106.44h,75.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srgmrNdpPzRwnFYFQGTIM-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This is a weird one.  In the original configuration, the thru signals on Penn Ave were always green, as there was no reason for red.

But now, given the median bike lane that is controlled by the thru signals, you need to have it be red so as not to have a conflict between bikes and left turns.  The thru traffic in the thru lanes stop because there is no room to give everyone their own signal.

A careful re-alignment of the signals could avoid the need to have a red signal here, but given its proximity to the Capitol, DC is very sensitive to sightlines and will not allow overhead signals here.  Plus, the median signals have to be removable to accommodate the Inauguration parade.

They just need bike signals and a always green light with a straight arrow.

Agreed.  But given the rules on sightlines overhead signals won't be placed here, and I can't imagine how they would get two* green lights with a straight arrow without using an overhead or mast arm signal.

*I believe two are required, just as two are required for most signal indications.  If just one were required, the one on the right could be converted to a green arrow and the one on the left can be a bike signal.

It's pretty easy. Make the two orb signals green up arrows instead, and install a bike signal in the median below the two vehicular signals (remove the "bikes obey this signal" sign and move the Amtrak sign down). Three 8-inch bike signals would work just fine, with near-side signals for both approaches as well.

[renegade]

Came across this signal at an onramp in Toledo, OH.  I don't see why it would need a red phase in this direction.

https://goo.gl/maps/mXEA8K8W2wtYLoDk8

Even the pedestrian phase wouldn't require a red light, correct?

I drive this every day to work.  There are no pedestrians crossing Manhattan right there.

(fixed your quote string)

I'm not talking about pedestrians crossing Manhattan.  I'm talking about this signalized crosswalk.

A green left turn arrow would conflict with their movement, but that's not a problem with a green ball.

I agree that through-traffic should never face a red right.

This light is a relic from the days when the offramp from I-280 South was there.  That ramp was moved further west when they rebuilt the whole 75/280 c/f a few years ago.

[deathtopumpkins]

https://goo.gl/maps/B5HH1BtjYYkSJxz39 on the channelization lane. Its normal cycle is green ball → red for 2 seconds → green right arrow → red for 2 seconds → repeat.

There's a signalized crosswalk across that lane.

[jakeroot]

There is a double right turn in Spanaway, WA that is basically a free right turn, but it's signalized so that it's only green when through traffic along the departing street is green, or when the overlapping left turn is green:

Cross Base Hwy (WA-704) eastbound to Pacific Ave (WA-7) southbound

If you look closely at the GSV image (or just scoot around and see for yourself), the right turn is actually an add-lane followed by a very long aux lane that ultimately does merge. Either way, there is no reason that traffic cannot freely turn at any time until a pedestrian activates the signal (so it does need a red phase but it shouldn't activate anywhere near as often).

[jakeroot]

The main example I was trying to think of before the above post:

This seagull intersection in Puyallup, WA does not need to stop for anything other than when a pedestrian activates the crosswalk, but it goes red when the left turn (from the stem of the T) proceeds anyways:

East Main westbound at Shaw Road

This is the only GSV image I could find showing the red light activated, and it's extremely difficult to tell. This image shows a car waiting while the left turn is still activated (you'll have to click ahead to see that it's not moving), and this image also shows a large backup of waiting traffic resulting from a red light (again, click around to see that they're only just setting off after a red light). None of these street view links show any pedestrians around, so the signal is definitely not programmed correctly.

[RobbieL2415]

There is a double right turn in Spanaway, WA that is basically a free right turn, but it's signalized so that it's only green when through traffic along the departing street is green, or when the overlapping left turn is green:

Cross Base Hwy (WA-704) eastbound to Pacific Ave (WA-7) southbound

If you look closely at the GSV image (or just scoot around and see for yourself), the right turn is actually an add-lane followed by a very long aux lane that ultimately does merge. Either way, there is no reason that traffic cannot freely turn at any time until a pedestrian activates the signal (so it does need a red phase but it shouldn't activate anywhere near as often).

Maybe its for metering. Does that intersection get busy at all?

[mrsman]

The main example I was trying to think of before the above post:

This seagull intersection in Puyallup, WA does not need to stop for anything other than when a pedestrian activates the crosswalk, but it goes red when the left turn (from the stem of the T) proceeds anyways:

East Main westbound at Shaw Road

This is the only GSV image I could find showing the red light activated, and it's extremely difficult to tell. This image shows a car waiting while the left turn is still activated (you'll have to click ahead to see that it's not moving), and this image also shows a large backup of waiting traffic resulting from a red light (again, click around to see that they're only just setting off after a red light). None of these street view links show any pedestrians around, so the signal is definitely not programmed correctly.

You're right.  THe whole point of the channelization is to allow the traffic to continue to be green at all times, except for ped crossing.  Given the signilazation as you describe, the channelization serves no function and it might as well be  a regular T intersection.

[mrsman]

Came across this signal at an onramp in Toledo, OH.  I don't see why it would need a red phase in this direction.

https://goo.gl/maps/mXEA8K8W2wtYLoDk8

Even the pedestrian phase wouldn't require a red light, correct?

I drive this every day to work.  There are no pedestrians crossing Manhattan right there.

(fixed your quote string)

I'm not talking about pedestrians crossing Manhattan.  I'm talking about this signalized crosswalk.

A green left turn arrow would conflict with their movement, but that's not a problem with a green ball.

I agree that through-traffic should never face a red right.

The best way to fix that is to convert the left turn signal into a 4 aspect FYA signal, then the thru traffic would never need to face a red light and cna be converted to green straight arrow lights.

[jakeroot]

There is a double right turn in Spanaway, WA that is basically a free right turn, but it's signalized so that it's only green when through traffic along the departing street is green, or when the overlapping left turn is green:

Cross Base Hwy (WA-704) eastbound to Pacific Ave (WA-7) southbound

If you look closely at the GSV image (or just scoot around and see for yourself), the right turn is actually an add-lane followed by a very long aux lane that ultimately does merge. Either way, there is no reason that traffic cannot freely turn at any time until a pedestrian activates the signal (so it does need a red phase but it shouldn't activate anywhere near as often).

Maybe its for metering. Does that intersection get busy at all?

It can get very busy, yes. And I suspect that may be the reason, because quite a lot of traffic makes that double right turn. Without an add-lane that lasts for a longer stretch, I'd guess the state wasn't comfortable operating the right turn as a constant green because of how heavy the right turn is. This may be why RTOR is still permitted: so when not green, it's more like a meter.