Our Highways are NOT crumbling

[kernals12]

Americans are constantly being told that the infrastructure that sustains their way of life is falling apart, or to use the cliche term, crumbling. The term "crumbling" has been used in this context since the late 70s, a feeling that I'm sure was brought on by high profile disasters that decade like the collapse of the West Side Highway in New York. But how is it possible that infrastructure that was "crumbling" during Jimmy Carter's presidency still works fine today? The short answer is none of it's true.

The FHWA keep track of the quality of our highways. The media likes to hop on the tens of thousands of bridges that are rated as structurally deficient, at last count just over 50,000. But what they don't tell you is that in 1990, it was 125,000.

Nobody likes potholes and I've got news, you're driving over fewer of them than you were a decade ago, as measured by the International Roughness Index. So, our streets aren't exactly crumbling either.

So yeah, the great American infrastructure crisis does not exist. It's perpetuated by construction companies looking for projects and the media's need for bad news. We already spend on the order of $400 billion a year on highways, railroads, airports, and bridges and seeing the sharp decline in dilapidated bridges and improvement in asphalt smoothness, it's clearly more than enough. Don't let politicians sell you a bill of goods.

[Scott5114]

[kernals12]

I don't get it

[Max Rockatansky]

https://flic.kr/p/Dxhnoq

[kernals12]

The plural of anecdote is not data, guys

[Brandon]

[hotdogPi]

Bad-font signage is not the same as bad-quality roads. (Frequent incorrect or missing signage may be, though.)

[kernals12]

Bad-font signage is not the same as bad-quality roads. (Frequent incorrect or missing signage may be, though.)

Unless it's a 69, 420, or 666 mile marker or route sign.

[Rothman]

Well...the OP speaks out of ignorance and a lack of grasp of asset management.  NY's conditions are declining and the current statewide level of investment only controls how slow the decline is.  How do I know?  I worked for the guy that put the analysis together.

And, this is still true despite NY very recently -- and unexpectedly -- no longer having FHWA need to set aside Bridge Penalty funds from its NHP appropriation.  Heard some people question the bridge data, but of course NYSDOT will take the win.

The argument that things were worse 30 years ago and therefore we should accept the current state of affairs is just stupid when it comes to asset management.

(personal opinion emphasized).

ETA:  The cites of blogs are not compelling (wait, was the number 125,000 or 115,000 in 1992?).  And, if anything, the data proves that massive public investment reaps great rewards, if you just go by the data presented.  So much for The Antiplanner's mission...?

And that AEI article is ridiculous.  Mixing transit anecdotes to make a broad statement on infrastructure in NY in general shows a tremendous amount of ignorance regarding actual transportation funding.

And the idea that federal funds do not pass through State DOTs to Locals is also one made out of complete ignorance...they just ignored about half of NYSDOT's capital program that way.  Idiotic.

[webny99]

While our highways aren't crumbling in real time before our eyes, that doesn't mean that more investment in infrastructure is a bad thing or should be condemned.

In other words, I don't buy "we're in an infrastructure crisis" OR "things were worse before, so they're great now". Reality is sandwiched somewhere in the middle.

[kernals12]

Well...the OP speaks out of ignorance and a lack of grasp of asset management.  NY's conditions are declining and the current statewide level of investment only controls how slow the decline is.  How do I know?  I worked for the guy that put the analysis together.

And, this is still true despite NY very recently -- and unexpectedly -- no longer having FHWA need to set aside Bridge Penalty funds from its NHP appropriation.  Heard some people question the bridge data, but of course NYSDOT will take the win.

The argument that things were worse 30 years ago and therefore we should accept the current state of affairs is just stupid when it comes to asset management.

(personal opinion emphasized).

ETA:  The cites of blogs are not compelling (wait, was the number 125,000 or 115,000 in 1992?).  And, if anything, the data proves that massive public investment reaps great rewards, if you just go by the data presented.  So much for The Antiplanner's mission...?

And that AEI article is ridiculous.  Mixing transit anecdotes to make a broad statement on infrastructure in NY in general shows a tremendous amount of ignorance regarding actual transportation funding.

And the idea that federal funds do not pass through State DOTs to Locals is also one made out of complete ignorance...they just ignored about half of NYSDOT's capital program that way.  Idiotic.

As I said, we're already spending $400 billion a year on our infrastructure which is clearly paying for maintenance and a healthy amount of expansion. Of course, as you can tell from my tag, I think we should spend less on transit boondoggles and spend more on highways.

[Terry Shea]

Americans are constantly being told that the infrastructure that sustains their way of life is falling apart, or to use the cliche term, crumbling. The term "crumbling" has been used in this context since the late 70s, a feeling that I'm sure was brought on by high profile disasters that decade like the collapse of the West Side Highway in New York. But how is it possible that infrastructure that was "crumbling" during Jimmy Carter's presidency still works fine today? The short answer is none of it's true.

The FHWA keep track of the quality of our highways. The media likes to hop on the tens of thousands of bridges that are rated as structurally deficient, at last count just over 50,000. But what they don't tell you is that in 1990, it was 125,000.

Nobody likes potholes and I've got news, you're driving over fewer of them than you were a decade ago, as measured by the International Roughness Index. So, our streets aren't exactly crumbling either.

So yeah, the great American infrastructure crisis does not exist. It's perpetuated by construction companies looking for projects and the media's need for bad news. We already spend on the order of $400 billion a year on highways, railroads, airports, and bridges and seeing the sharp decline in dilapidated bridges and improvement in asphalt smoothness, it's clearly more than enough. Don't let politicians sell you a bill of goods.

Do you have an I Love Potholes bumper sticker?

[Max Rockatansky]

Americans are constantly being told that the infrastructure that sustains their way of life is falling apart, or to use the cliche term, crumbling. The term "crumbling" has been used in this context since the late 70s, a feeling that I'm sure was brought on by high profile disasters that decade like the collapse of the West Side Highway in New York. But how is it possible that infrastructure that was "crumbling" during Jimmy Carter's presidency still works fine today? The short answer is none of it's true.

The FHWA keep track of the quality of our highways. The media likes to hop on the tens of thousands of bridges that are rated as structurally deficient, at last count just over 50,000. But what they don't tell you is that in 1990, it was 125,000.

Nobody likes potholes and I've got news, you're driving over fewer of them than you were a decade ago, as measured by the International Roughness Index. So, our streets aren't exactly crumbling either.

So yeah, the great American infrastructure crisis does not exist. It's perpetuated by construction companies looking for projects and the media's need for bad news. We already spend on the order of $400 billion a year on highways, railroads, airports, and bridges and seeing the sharp decline in dilapidated bridges and improvement in asphalt smoothness, it's clearly more than enough. Don't let politicians sell you a bill of goods.

Do you have an I Love Potholes bumper sticker?

Or how about a Pure Potholes sticker from Michigan?

[skluth]

The OP argument makes as much sense as I can't be broke because I still have credit cards

[index]

The OP argument makes as much sense as I can't be broke because I still have credit cards

Also goes hand in hand with

Love highways and cars. Hate public transit.

Something being less of a problem is also not an argument against its existence as a problem...This country's infrastructure still lags well behind other countries in the developed world in several different measures.

[Rothman]

Well...the OP speaks out of ignorance and a lack of grasp of asset management.  NY's conditions are declining and the current statewide level of investment only controls how slow the decline is.  How do I know?  I worked for the guy that put the analysis together.

And, this is still true despite NY very recently -- and unexpectedly -- no longer having FHWA need to set aside Bridge Penalty funds from its NHP appropriation.  Heard some people question the bridge data, but of course NYSDOT will take the win.

The argument that things were worse 30 years ago and therefore we should accept the current state of affairs is just stupid when it comes to asset management.

(personal opinion emphasized).

ETA:  The cites of blogs are not compelling (wait, was the number 125,000 or 115,000 in 1992?).  And, if anything, the data proves that massive public investment reaps great rewards, if you just go by the data presented.  So much for The Antiplanner's mission...?

And that AEI article is ridiculous.  Mixing transit anecdotes to make a broad statement on infrastructure in NY in general shows a tremendous amount of ignorance regarding actual transportation funding.

And the idea that federal funds do not pass through State DOTs to Locals is also one made out of complete ignorance...they just ignored about half of NYSDOT's capital program that way.  Idiotic.

As I said, we're already spending $400 billion a year on our infrastructure which is clearly paying for maintenance and a healthy amount of expansion. Of course, as you can tell from my tag, I think we should spend less on transit boondoggles and spend more on highways.

That fact alone means nothing.  And, in NY, expansion has hardly been healthy.

[kernals12]

The OP argument makes as much sense as I can't be broke because I still have credit cards

Also goes hand in hand with

Love highways and cars. Hate public transit.

Something being less of a problem is also not an argument against its existence as a problem...This country's infrastructure still lags well behind other countries in the developed world in several different measures.

By what metric?

[kernals12]

Well...the OP speaks out of ignorance and a lack of grasp of asset management.  NY's conditions are declining and the current statewide level of investment only controls how slow the decline is.  How do I know?  I worked for the guy that put the analysis together.

And, this is still true despite NY very recently -- and unexpectedly -- no longer having FHWA need to set aside Bridge Penalty funds from its NHP appropriation.  Heard some people question the bridge data, but of course NYSDOT will take the win.

The argument that things were worse 30 years ago and therefore we should accept the current state of affairs is just stupid when it comes to asset management.

(personal opinion emphasized).

ETA:  The cites of blogs are not compelling (wait, was the number 125,000 or 115,000 in 1992?).  And, if anything, the data proves that massive public investment reaps great rewards, if you just go by the data presented.  So much for The Antiplanner's mission...?

And that AEI article is ridiculous.  Mixing transit anecdotes to make a broad statement on infrastructure in NY in general shows a tremendous amount of ignorance regarding actual transportation funding.

And the idea that federal funds do not pass through State DOTs to Locals is also one made out of complete ignorance...they just ignored about half of NYSDOT's capital program that way.  Idiotic.

As I said, we're already spending $400 billion a year on our infrastructure which is clearly paying for maintenance and a healthy amount of expansion. Of course, as you can tell from my tag, I think we should spend less on transit boondoggles and spend more on highways.

That fact alone means nothing.  And, in NY, expansion has hardly been healthy.

New York is not the center of the universe you know. Try looking across the Hudson River

[index]

Well...the OP speaks out of ignorance and a lack of grasp of asset management.  NY's conditions are declining and the current statewide level of investment only controls how slow the decline is.  How do I know?  I worked for the guy that put the analysis together.

And, this is still true despite NY very recently -- and unexpectedly -- no longer having FHWA need to set aside Bridge Penalty funds from its NHP appropriation.  Heard some people question the bridge data, but of course NYSDOT will take the win.

The argument that things were worse 30 years ago and therefore we should accept the current state of affairs is just stupid when it comes to asset management.

(personal opinion emphasized).

ETA:  The cites of blogs are not compelling (wait, was the number 125,000 or 115,000 in 1992?).  And, if anything, the data proves that massive public investment reaps great rewards, if you just go by the data presented.  So much for The Antiplanner's mission...?

And that AEI article is ridiculous.  Mixing transit anecdotes to make a broad statement on infrastructure in NY in general shows a tremendous amount of ignorance regarding actual transportation funding.

And the idea that federal funds do not pass through State DOTs to Locals is also one made out of complete ignorance...they just ignored about half of NYSDOT's capital program that way.  Idiotic.

As I said, we're already spending $400 billion a year on our infrastructure which is clearly paying for maintenance and a healthy amount of expansion. Of course, as you can tell from my tag, I think we should spend less on transit boondoggles and spend more on highways.

Just because you like it? Millions of people depend on and could use an expansion to public transit, including but not limited to stuff like high-speed rail which will make jobs more accessible to areas that got shut out of them thanks to the siphoning of commerce away from their areas by the expansion of superhighways. Slapping cars and freeways on top of everywhere and everything is good for nothing but short-term growth and long-term loss and stagnation especially in urban areas. That era is pretty long-gone by now. Public transit, road dieting, highway lids, freeway removal, etc, are all much better solutions. We sowed it with the Interstate system, especially with it tearing through urban areas and now we are reaping the consequences of it through industrial, urban, and rural decay. (Suburbs are also horrible and unsustainable, I have to add that) What do you say to the people who are living in that decay?

The OP argument makes as much sense as I can't be broke because I still have credit cards

Also goes hand in hand with

Love highways and cars. Hate public transit.

Something being less of a problem is also not an argument against its existence as a problem...This country's infrastructure still lags well behind other countries in the developed world in several different measures.

By what metric?

   
• High-speed rail
• Passenger rail in general
• Freeways that still tear through urban areas
• The very existence of the Rust Belt
• Pedestrian and cyclist accessibility
• Public transit
• Road safety
• Traffic deaths
• 70% of our dams will be over 50 years old in five years
• Weather-related power outages are 10 times more frequent than in the 1980s
• Increasing damage from natural disasters, even when adjusted for inflation comparing to ones of the past
• Among many, many other things.

The decay is very real. Populations in the Midwest and Rust Belt continue to shrink. West Virginia continues to get poorer. Just because there is growth doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is enjoying that growth. I am experiencing decay itself with the electric grid. I went years without having any major disruptions to my power only to be hit with at least a dozen this year. It doesn't seem like there's very much stopping another 2003-style blackout from happening either.

https://www.wbtv.com/2020/11/12/charlotte-sees-dramatic-jump-power-outages/

[Rothman]

Well...the OP speaks out of ignorance and a lack of grasp of asset management.  NY's conditions are declining and the current statewide level of investment only controls how slow the decline is.  How do I know?  I worked for the guy that put the analysis together.

And, this is still true despite NY very recently -- and unexpectedly -- no longer having FHWA need to set aside Bridge Penalty funds from its NHP appropriation.  Heard some people question the bridge data, but of course NYSDOT will take the win.

The argument that things were worse 30 years ago and therefore we should accept the current state of affairs is just stupid when it comes to asset management.

(personal opinion emphasized).

ETA:  The cites of blogs are not compelling (wait, was the number 125,000 or 115,000 in 1992?).  And, if anything, the data proves that massive public investment reaps great rewards, if you just go by the data presented.  So much for The Antiplanner's mission...?

And that AEI article is ridiculous.  Mixing transit anecdotes to make a broad statement on infrastructure in NY in general shows a tremendous amount of ignorance regarding actual transportation funding.

And the idea that federal funds do not pass through State DOTs to Locals is also one made out of complete ignorance...they just ignored about half of NYSDOT's capital program that way.  Idiotic.

As I said, we're already spending $400 billion a year on our infrastructure which is clearly paying for maintenance and a healthy amount of expansion. Of course, as you can tell from my tag, I think we should spend less on transit boondoggles and spend more on highways.

That fact alone means nothing.  And, in NY, expansion has hardly been healthy.

New York is not the center of the universe you know. Try looking across the Hudson River

Every state has a capital program, silly man.

And, NY is the center of the Universe.

[kernals12]

Well...the OP speaks out of ignorance and a lack of grasp of asset management.  NY's conditions are declining and the current statewide level of investment only controls how slow the decline is.  How do I know?  I worked for the guy that put the analysis together.

And, this is still true despite NY very recently -- and unexpectedly -- no longer having FHWA need to set aside Bridge Penalty funds from its NHP appropriation.  Heard some people question the bridge data, but of course NYSDOT will take the win.

The argument that things were worse 30 years ago and therefore we should accept the current state of affairs is just stupid when it comes to asset management.

(personal opinion emphasized).

ETA:  The cites of blogs are not compelling (wait, was the number 125,000 or 115,000 in 1992?).  And, if anything, the data proves that massive public investment reaps great rewards, if you just go by the data presented.  So much for The Antiplanner's mission...?

And that AEI article is ridiculous.  Mixing transit anecdotes to make a broad statement on infrastructure in NY in general shows a tremendous amount of ignorance regarding actual transportation funding.

And the idea that federal funds do not pass through State DOTs to Locals is also one made out of complete ignorance...they just ignored about half of NYSDOT's capital program that way.  Idiotic.

As I said, we're already spending $400 billion a year on our infrastructure which is clearly paying for maintenance and a healthy amount of expansion. Of course, as you can tell from my tag, I think we should spend less on transit boondoggles and spend more on highways.

That fact alone means nothing.  And, in NY, expansion has hardly been healthy.

New York is not the center of the universe you know. Try looking across the Hudson River

Every state has a capital program, silly man.

And, NY is the center of the Universe.

But not every state is planning such large scale widening of its highways. Also, New York now has fewer people than Florida. Just like Great Britain, New York is a former empire.

[Max Rockatansky]

Well...the OP speaks out of ignorance and a lack of grasp of asset management.  NY's conditions are declining and the current statewide level of investment only controls how slow the decline is.  How do I know?  I worked for the guy that put the analysis together.

And, this is still true despite NY very recently -- and unexpectedly -- no longer having FHWA need to set aside Bridge Penalty funds from its NHP appropriation.  Heard some people question the bridge data, but of course NYSDOT will take the win.

The argument that things were worse 30 years ago and therefore we should accept the current state of affairs is just stupid when it comes to asset management.

(personal opinion emphasized).

ETA:  The cites of blogs are not compelling (wait, was the number 125,000 or 115,000 in 1992?).  And, if anything, the data proves that massive public investment reaps great rewards, if you just go by the data presented.  So much for The Antiplanner's mission...?

And that AEI article is ridiculous.  Mixing transit anecdotes to make a broad statement on infrastructure in NY in general shows a tremendous amount of ignorance regarding actual transportation funding.

And the idea that federal funds do not pass through State DOTs to Locals is also one made out of complete ignorance...they just ignored about half of NYSDOT's capital program that way.  Idiotic.

As I said, we're already spending $400 billion a year on our infrastructure which is clearly paying for maintenance and a healthy amount of expansion. Of course, as you can tell from my tag, I think we should spend less on transit boondoggles and spend more on highways.

That fact alone means nothing.  And, in NY, expansion has hardly been healthy.

New York is not the center of the universe you know. Try looking across the Hudson River

Every state has a capital program, silly man.

And, NY is the center of the Universe.

But not every state is planning such large scale widening of its highways. Also, New York now has fewer people than Florida. Just like Great Britain, New York is a former empire.

When did New York State have colonies all over the world again?

[jeffandnicole]

High-speed rail
Passenger rail in general
Public transit

To be fair, the average size of many countries with great public transit is about the size of PA. If you're a country as large as the US and try to provide transit to the entire country, it fails. Also, we don't hear about the issues public transit faces in other counties, because it's not newsworthy to us.  Here's one example, from a foreign news source you probably never heard of, because its not relevant to us in the USA:

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-03-17/commuters-in-spain-complain-of-overcrowding-during-coronavirus-lockdown.html

...In Madrid however, a temporary morning breakdown on the Cercanías commuter train network at Príncipe Pío station led to long delays on the C1, C7 and C10 lines. Many also complained that buses and the Metro train station were overcrowded, even though Madrid transit authorities maintained that "service was at 100%"

Pedestrian and cyclist accessibility

The US actually has very good access for pedestrians, where sidewalks are provided. Many countries don't have great access for those with disabilities, for example.

Traffic deaths

Now you're just bullshitting.

https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/themes/road-safety

[kernals12]

Well...the OP speaks out of ignorance and a lack of grasp of asset management.  NY's conditions are declining and the current statewide level of investment only controls how slow the decline is.  How do I know?  I worked for the guy that put the analysis together.

And, this is still true despite NY very recently -- and unexpectedly -- no longer having FHWA need to set aside Bridge Penalty funds from its NHP appropriation.  Heard some people question the bridge data, but of course NYSDOT will take the win.

The argument that things were worse 30 years ago and therefore we should accept the current state of affairs is just stupid when it comes to asset management.

(personal opinion emphasized).

ETA:  The cites of blogs are not compelling (wait, was the number 125,000 or 115,000 in 1992?).  And, if anything, the data proves that massive public investment reaps great rewards, if you just go by the data presented.  So much for The Antiplanner's mission...?

And that AEI article is ridiculous.  Mixing transit anecdotes to make a broad statement on infrastructure in NY in general shows a tremendous amount of ignorance regarding actual transportation funding.

And the idea that federal funds do not pass through State DOTs to Locals is also one made out of complete ignorance...they just ignored about half of NYSDOT's capital program that way.  Idiotic.

As I said, we're already spending $400 billion a year on our infrastructure which is clearly paying for maintenance and a healthy amount of expansion. Of course, as you can tell from my tag, I think we should spend less on transit boondoggles and spend more on highways.

Just because you like it? Millions of people depend on and could use an expansion to public transit, including but not limited to stuff like high-speed rail which will make jobs more accessible to areas that got shut out of them thanks to the siphoning of commerce away from their areas by the expansion of superhighways. Slapping cars and freeways on top of everywhere and everything is good for nothing but short-term growth and long-term loss and stagnation especially in urban areas. That era is pretty long-gone by now. Public transit, road dieting, highway lids, freeway removal, etc, are all much better solutions. We sowed it with the Interstate system, especially with it tearing through urban areas and now we are reaping the consequences of it through industrial, urban, and rural decay. (Suburbs are also horrible and unsustainable, I have to add that) What do you say to the people who are living in that decay?

The OP argument makes as much sense as I can't be broke because I still have credit cards

Also goes hand in hand with

Love highways and cars. Hate public transit.

Something being less of a problem is also not an argument against its existence as a problem...This country's infrastructure still lags well behind other countries in the developed world in several different measures.

By what metric?

   
• High-speed rail
• Passenger rail in general
• Freeways that still tear through urban areas
• The very existence of the Rust Belt
• Pedestrian and cyclist accessibility
• Public transit
• Road safety
• Traffic deaths
• 70% of our dams will be over 50 years old in five years
• Weather-related power outages are 10 times more frequent than in the 1980s
• Increasing damage from natural disasters, even when adjusted for inflation comparing to ones of the past
• Among many, many other things.

The decay is very real. Populations in the Midwest and Rust Belt continue to shrink. West Virginia continues to get poorer. Just because there is growth doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is enjoying that growth. I am experiencing decay itself with the electric grid. I went years without having any major disruptions to my power only to be hit with at least a dozen this year. It doesn't seem like there's very much stopping another 2003-style blackout from happening either.

https://www.wbtv.com/2020/11/12/charlotte-sees-dramatic-jump-power-outages/

If you want public transit, pay for it yourself. We drivers pay for our roads with our gas taxes and registration fees, which contrary to what you may have heard, all but cover the cost of highways with net subsidy only being 1 cent per passenger mile vs 1 dollar per passenger mile for transit. And I'm glad we have urban freeways. Getting to Logan Airport to pick up my sister when she visits us would be much harder without the MassPike.

And as a lifelong suburbanite, I can tell you they are wonderful, which you should know since you live in an exurb of Charlotte, North Carolina

[kernals12]

High-speed rail
Passenger rail in general
Public transit

To be fair, the average size of many countries with great public transit is about the size of PA. If you're a country as large as the US and try to provide transit to the entire country, it fails. Also, we don't hear about the issues public transit faces in other counties, because it's not newsworthy to us.  Here's one example, from a foreign news source you probably never heard of, because its not relevant to us in the USA:

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-03-17/commuters-in-spain-complain-of-overcrowding-during-coronavirus-lockdown.html

...In Madrid however, a temporary morning breakdown on the Cercanías commuter train network at Príncipe Pío station led to long delays on the C1, C7 and C10 lines. Many also complained that buses and the Metro train station were overcrowded, even though Madrid transit authorities maintained that "service was at 100%"

Pedestrian and cyclist accessibility

The US actually has very good access for pedestrians, where sidewalks are provided. Many countries don't have great access for those with disabilities, for example.

Traffic deaths

Now you're just bullshitting.

https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/themes/road-safety

More importantly, those countries are poorer than us.