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Author Topic: US 50/Secret Interstate 305  (Read 1632 times)

Rothman

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2021, 12:20:26 AM »

Biz-80 also amounted to a lot of confusion in giving directions.  Imagine if you are west of Sacramento (like in Davis) and need to give directions to the Arden Fair Mall.  You'd say take I-80 east and then at the 80 split interchange don't take the blue 80 to Reno, instead follow green 80/US-50 to Sacramento through town and then at the Oak Park interchange take green 80 to Reno and get off at Arden Way.  These were confusing directions that I heard when I lived in the area.

In the 1964 renumbering, CA was very big that only one number should be used for one road to ease travel confusion.  It seems odd that with such a mindset, it would be appropriate to have two separate roads in the same city both using the same number <80>, with one using the red/blue and other using green.  Nowhere else does this exist in CA, where the highway numbering is very strict that once a number is used, it cannot be used elsewhere in the state.*  Its confusing and IMO, it would be better to get rid of this second 80 freeway and renumber it as US 50 along the EW portion and CA 51 as the NS portion.

Now, in NC, having an I-40 and a green-40 freeway is/was normal.  But that's not normal for CA.

I agree with you, it is confusing to have two I-80s in the same city and I agree with your suggestion.  The only thing I'd add is that the 1964 renumbering was all about reducing duplexes and confusing multiple routes, but making old I-80 into I-80 Business was a 1980 decision so it was a new generation of engineers.
Heh.  Syracuse is going to have two I-81s in a few years.
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kkt

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2021, 01:31:48 AM »

Biz-80 also amounted to a lot of confusion in giving directions.  Imagine if you are west of Sacramento (like in Davis) and need to give directions to the Arden Fair Mall.  You'd say take I-80 east and then at the 80 split interchange don't take the blue 80 to Reno, instead follow green 80/US-50 to Sacramento through town and then at the Oak Park interchange take green 80 to Reno and get off at Arden Way.  These were confusing directions that I heard when I lived in the area.

In the 1964 renumbering, CA was very big that only one number should be used for one road to ease travel confusion.  It seems odd that with such a mindset, it would be appropriate to have two separate roads in the same city both using the same number <80>, with one using the red/blue and other using green.  Nowhere else does this exist in CA, where the highway numbering is very strict that once a number is used, it cannot be used elsewhere in the state.*  Its confusing and IMO, it would be better to get rid of this second 80 freeway and renumber it as US 50 along the EW portion and CA 51 as the NS portion.

Now, in NC, having an I-40 and a green-40 freeway is/was normal.  But that's not normal for CA.

I agree with you, it is confusing to have two I-80s in the same city and I agree with your suggestion.  The only thing I'd add is that the 1964 renumbering was all about reducing duplexes and confusing multiple routes, but making old I-80 into I-80 Business was a 1980 decision so it was a new generation of engineers.
Heh.  Syracuse is going to have two I-81s in a few years.

 :banghead:
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2021, 04:13:53 PM »

Does anyone think that there would be less confusion in the Sacramento area if Interstate 305 and CA 51 had been signposted, instead of signing both as Business 80? Certainly if the CA 99 freeway south of Sacramento becomes Interstate 7 or 9, the 7 or 9 designation could be extended westward along unsigned 305 to terminate at Interstate 80. Interestingly, Google Maps does have an Interstate 305 marker on the Business 80/US 50 freeway, although it disappears just west of Exit 1.
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kkt

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2021, 04:42:07 PM »

I don't think posting I-305 would save confusion.  Making US 50 continue west to meet I-80 in West Sacramento is simpler than having US 50 turn south like it used to.  However posting CA 51 would save some confusion after some teething pains.
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sparker

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2021, 05:28:50 PM »

Biz-80 also amounted to a lot of confusion in giving directions.  Imagine if you are west of Sacramento (like in Davis) and need to give directions to the Arden Fair Mall.  You'd say take I-80 east and then at the 80 split interchange don't take the blue 80 to Reno, instead follow green 80/US-50 to Sacramento through town and then at the Oak Park interchange take green 80 to Reno and get off at Arden Way.  These were confusing directions that I heard when I lived in the area.

In the 1964 renumbering, CA was very big that only one number should be used for one road to ease travel confusion.  It seems odd that with such a mindset, it would be appropriate to have two separate roads in the same city both using the same number <80>, with one using the red/blue and other using green.  Nowhere else does this exist in CA, where the highway numbering is very strict that once a number is used, it cannot be used elsewhere in the state.*  Its confusing and IMO, it would be better to get rid of this second 80 freeway and renumber it as US 50 along the EW portion and CA 51 as the NS portion.

Now, in NC, having an I-40 and a green-40 freeway is/was normal.  But that's not normal for CA.

I agree with you, it is confusing to have two I-80s in the same city and I agree with your suggestion.  The only thing I'd add is that the 1964 renumbering was all about reducing duplexes and confusing multiple routes, but making old I-80 into I-80 Business was a 1980 decision so it was a new generation of engineers.
Heh.  Syracuse is going to have two I-81s in a few years.

Unless they simply sign the southern "stub" as I-181 or the like, and the section north or I-690 to the current northern I-81/481 junction as the rerouted I-481 (to correspond with the existing NY 481 northwest of that junction) -- which IMO is the appropriate choice, considering both will be separate freeways, there should be no problem.  Now -- signing the original I-81 as a "green" business loop might be dicey, since it would involve three overall segments with a boulevard in the middle.  But if the 3di's are retained on the remaining section, NB "I-181" (or whatever) could use "I-181/Downtown Syracuse" with a yellow banner stating "FREEWAY ENDS IN (X) MILES"; southbound, it would read "I-481/Downtown Syracuse/TO I-690". 

Something similar would work for the erstwhile "Biz 80" loop in Sacramento:  From I-80 westbound at the CA 51/Biz 80 split, the sign would read "South CA 51/Central Sacramento/To CA 99/Fresno"; at the CA 160 exit, the two BGS' would read "South CA 51/To CA 99/Fresno" and "CA 160/Downtown Sacramento".  Since it's something of an oblique angle to traffic coming WB on I-80, US 50 need not be cited until approaching the Oak Park interchange.  Eastbound on US 50 on the W-X freeway; the signage prior to Oak Park could read simply "North CA 51 to I-80 East/Reno", duplicated on CA 99 north and US 50 west.  Simple and straightforward; keep I-305 hidden; no need to confuse things just because FHWA needs some formal record of parvenu. 
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Rothman

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2021, 06:26:03 PM »

It's already decided:  Old I-81 will get a green shield.  I-481 becomes I-81.
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sparker

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2021, 06:46:03 PM »

It's already decided:  Old I-81 will get a green shield.  I-481 becomes I-81.

That's depressing -- and profoundly idiotic!  Question: since the original through-town alignment was chargeable, will there be hidden FHWA designations (like CA's I-305) for the remnants?  (And who or what, pray tell, was responsible for the "green shield" biz-route decision?).
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kurumi

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2021, 10:03:33 PM »

My 2 cents for a disruptive way to get rid of the bad idea that is Green 80
* CA 99 replaces CA 51; overlaps with I-80 to Roseville; replaces CA 65; overlaps CA 70 into Yuba City to reach current 99
* old CA 99 north of Sacramento becomes extended CA 70, then CA 399 to Yuba City
* CA 51 is gone, green 80 is gone
* I-305 remains unsigned
* no confusing, poorly signed overlaps for 99/50 and 99/5
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kkt

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2021, 10:58:35 PM »

My 2 cents for a disruptive way to get rid of the bad idea that is Green 80
* CA 99 replaces CA 51; overlaps with I-80 to Roseville; replaces CA 65; overlaps CA 70 into Yuba City to reach current 99
* old CA 99 north of Sacramento becomes extended CA 70, then CA 399 to Yuba City
* CA 51 is gone, green 80 is gone
* I-305 remains unsigned
* no confusing, poorly signed overlaps for 99/50 and 99/5

I appreciate the effort but that's an awful lot of resigning very well established route numbers north of Sacramento in order to fix a pretty short stretch of CA 51.  How about:

CA 99 from Wheeler Ridge to Oak Park becomes I-7
unsigned CA 51 becomes CA 7
CA 51 is gone, Biz 80 is gone, I-305 remains unsigned
CA 99 is truncated to I-5 northwest of Sacramento to Red Bluff
no overlaps of US 50/CA 99 or I-5/CA 99
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Rothman

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2021, 11:04:23 PM »



It's already decided:  Old I-81 will get a green shield.  I-481 becomes I-81.

That's depressing -- and profoundly idiotic!  Question: since the original through-town alignment was chargeable, will there be hidden FHWA designations (like CA's I-305) for the remnants?  (And who or what, pray tell, was responsible for the "green shield" biz-route decision?).

I don't believe so as of right now.

Not sure who made the decision, but I'm fairly sure the idea that a green route actually directs people to businesses held sway. 
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sparker

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2021, 01:06:45 PM »



It's already decided:  Old I-81 will get a green shield.  I-481 becomes I-81.

That's depressing -- and profoundly idiotic!  Question: since the original through-town alignment was chargeable, will there be hidden FHWA designations (like CA's I-305) for the remnants?  (And who or what, pray tell, was responsible for the "green shield" biz-route decision?).

I don't believe so as of right now.

Not sure who made the decision, but I'm fairly sure the idea that a green route actually directs people to businesses held sway. 

Well.....we've tried that approach out here both with the Biz 80 example (full freeway) and numerous surface loops over previous alignments, and the results haven't been terribly successful -- most surface business routes have been formally (AASHTO) deleted or their signage has both aged out and/or disappeared.   But some agencies seem to hold on to longstanding concepts (or myths) regardless of field experience. 

Another question concerning this:  Since NY tends to keep maintaining and signing the original routes adjacent to Interstates (i.e. I-81 & US 11, I-88 & NY 7, etc.), are there all that many instances of actual green-shielded business loops within the state -- and if so, has traffic/usage data been compiled to underscore the opinion that business Interstates provide significant value?   
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Rothman

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2021, 01:57:16 PM »



It's already decided:  Old I-81 will get a green shield.  I-481 becomes I-81.

That's depressing -- and profoundly idiotic!  Question: since the original through-town alignment was chargeable, will there be hidden FHWA designations (like CA's I-305) for the remnants?  (And who or what, pray tell, was responsible for the "green shield" biz-route decision?).

I don't believe so as of right now.

Not sure who made the decision, but I'm fairly sure the idea that a green route actually directs people to businesses held sway. 

Well.....we've tried that approach out here both with the Biz 80 example (full freeway) and numerous surface loops over previous alignments, and the results haven't been terribly successful -- most surface business routes have been formally (AASHTO) deleted or their signage has both aged out and/or disappeared.   But some agencies seem to hold on to longstanding concepts (or myths) regardless of field experience. 

Another question concerning this:  Since NY tends to keep maintaining and signing the original routes adjacent to Interstates (i.e. I-81 & US 11, I-88 & NY 7, etc.), are there all that many instances of actual green-shielded business loops within the state -- and if so, has traffic/usage data been compiled to underscore the opinion that business Interstates provide significant value?
BL-81 will be the first green shield in NY, I believe.
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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2021, 02:00:04 PM »

BL-81 will be the first green shield in NY, I believe.

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Rothman

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2021, 02:01:59 PM »

BL-81 will be the first green shield in NY, I believe.

TO QC XXX
Heh.  *golf claps*
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sparker

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2021, 05:14:06 PM »



It's already decided:  Old I-81 will get a green shield.  I-481 becomes I-81.

That's depressing -- and profoundly idiotic!  Question: since the original through-town alignment was chargeable, will there be hidden FHWA designations (like CA's I-305) for the remnants?  (And who or what, pray tell, was responsible for the "green shield" biz-route decision?).

I don't believe so as of right now.

Not sure who made the decision, but I'm fairly sure the idea that a green route actually directs people to businesses held sway. 

Well.....we've tried that approach out here both with the Biz 80 example (full freeway) and numerous surface loops over previous alignments, and the results haven't been terribly successful -- most surface business routes have been formally (AASHTO) deleted or their signage has both aged out and/or disappeared.   But some agencies seem to hold on to longstanding concepts (or myths) regardless of field experience. 

Another question concerning this:  Since NY tends to keep maintaining and signing the original routes adjacent to Interstates (i.e. I-81 & US 11, I-88 & NY 7, etc.), are there all that many instances of actual green-shielded business loops within the state -- and if so, has traffic/usage data been compiled to underscore the opinion that business Interstates provide significant value?
BL-81 will be the first green shield in NY, I believe.

Wow!  A dataset with n=0!  Probably someone simply thought "they're doing it elsewhere; we may as well give it a shot!"  Wait until the first winter/low-visibility weather, when folks get the 81's confused! 
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mrsman

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2021, 04:36:22 PM »



It's already decided:  Old I-81 will get a green shield.  I-481 becomes I-81.

That's depressing -- and profoundly idiotic!  Question: since the original through-town alignment was chargeable, will there be hidden FHWA designations (like CA's I-305) for the remnants?  (And who or what, pray tell, was responsible for the "green shield" biz-route decision?).

I don't believe so as of right now.

Not sure who made the decision, but I'm fairly sure the idea that a green route actually directs people to businesses held sway. 

Well.....we've tried that approach out here both with the Biz 80 example (full freeway) and numerous surface loops over previous alignments, and the results haven't been terribly successful -- most surface business routes have been formally (AASHTO) deleted or their signage has both aged out and/or disappeared.   But some agencies seem to hold on to longstanding concepts (or myths) regardless of field experience. 

Another question concerning this:  Since NY tends to keep maintaining and signing the original routes adjacent to Interstates (i.e. I-81 & US 11, I-88 & NY 7, etc.), are there all that many instances of actual green-shielded business loops within the state -- and if so, has traffic/usage data been compiled to underscore the opinion that business Interstates provide significant value?
BL-81 will be the first green shield in NY, I believe.

Wow!  A dataset with n=0!  Probably someone simply thought "they're doing it elsewhere; we may as well give it a shot!"  Wait until the first winter/low-visibility weather, when folks get the 81's confused!

While I also agree that Syracuse is making a mistake with its renumbering proposal, I will submit that there is some precedent for the approach.  280 miles south of Syracuse is York, PA.  I-83 bypasses the town to the east, but there is a Biz-83 (or green-83, I'm not sure how the locals refer to that road) that heads right into town.  The southernmost mile or so of this is a pre-interstate freeway that connects directly to I-83.  THe freeway ends and defaults onto George street, the main NS street through town (and the former routing of US 111).  The green 83 shields are used well and the route is easy to follow and the Biz-83 route ends at the northern interchange of George St and I-83.
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sparker

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2021, 07:29:52 PM »



It's already decided:  Old I-81 will get a green shield.  I-481 becomes I-81.

That's depressing -- and profoundly idiotic!  Question: since the original through-town alignment was chargeable, will there be hidden FHWA designations (like CA's I-305) for the remnants?  (And who or what, pray tell, was responsible for the "green shield" biz-route decision?).

I don't believe so as of right now.

Not sure who made the decision, but I'm fairly sure the idea that a green route actually directs people to businesses held sway. 

Well.....we've tried that approach out here both with the Biz 80 example (full freeway) and numerous surface loops over previous alignments, and the results haven't been terribly successful -- most surface business routes have been formally (AASHTO) deleted or their signage has both aged out and/or disappeared.   But some agencies seem to hold on to longstanding concepts (or myths) regardless of field experience. 

Another question concerning this:  Since NY tends to keep maintaining and signing the original routes adjacent to Interstates (i.e. I-81 & US 11, I-88 & NY 7, etc.), are there all that many instances of actual green-shielded business loops within the state -- and if so, has traffic/usage data been compiled to underscore the opinion that business Interstates provide significant value?
BL-81 will be the first green shield in NY, I believe.

Wow!  A dataset with n=0!  Probably someone simply thought "they're doing it elsewhere; we may as well give it a shot!"  Wait until the first winter/low-visibility weather, when folks get the 81's confused!

While I also agree that Syracuse is making a mistake with its renumbering proposal, I will submit that there is some precedent for the approach.  280 miles south of Syracuse is York, PA.  I-83 bypasses the town to the east, but there is a Biz-83 (or green-83, I'm not sure how the locals refer to that road) that heads right into town.  The southernmost mile or so of this is a pre-interstate freeway that connects directly to I-83.  THe freeway ends and defaults onto George street, the main NS street through town (and the former routing of US 111).  The green 83 shields are used well and the route is easy to follow and the Biz-83 route ends at the northern interchange of George St and I-83.

Nevertheless, what is unique about the Syracuse situation is that a full freeway segment of soon-to-be-former I-81 between I-690 and the north current I-481 interchange will get the biz-loop treatment; it's not just the southern segment which will be truncated by the teardown/boulevard activity.  So there will be a situation where the signed "green" loop, south-to-north, will consist of freeway stub followed by a boulevard followed by a lengthy stretch of freeway between two existing Interstates.  From a navigational standpoint, it has all the markings of a major clusterfuck.  I could see the southern stub as a business spur intended to empty out onto the new boulevard -- but a fully functional freeway extending between two others not so much -- if it were built as a full-fledged Interstate, it should be retained as such.  Maybe it's being caught between a rock and the proverbial hard place, but NYDOT appears to have been cast in roles that require it to be both an urbanization advocate as well as an adjunct "chamber of commerce" for Syracuse business interests; that sort of oft-conflicting multitasking often results in suboptimal decision-making.  Even NC had the good sense to delete "Biz 40" from their older Winston-Salem loop!

But then nothing's really final until it's posted in the field!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 07:31:53 PM by sparker »
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michravera

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Re: US 50/Secret Interstate 305
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2021, 08:35:25 PM »

I don't think posting I-305 would save confusion.  Making US 50 continue west to meet I-80 in West Sacramento is simpler than having US 50 turn south like it used to.  However posting CA 51 would save some confusion after some teething pains.

Hear Here!

The routes are well-defined and well-intentioned. Just sign the stinking routes as they are defined. You could even just sign Bus-80 as CASR-51 without changing any of the control locations or anything else. But, "Central Sacramento / Fresno" for at the separation from I-80 and signing CASR-160 at its separation from CASR-51 as "Downtown Sacramento" (as it currently is, I believe) would all make sense. Perhaps a sign at the CASR-51/I-80 separation advising "Los Angeles use I-80 to I-5" would be sensible.

It's one thing to have two different routes with the same number in different parts of the state (but both CalTrans and the Highway Code avoid this), but two different freeways that touch intersect, run roughly parallel for a while, don't move more than a few km apart is not an aid to navigation. As I have said before, people need to adapt. It's been CASR-51 now for over twice as long as it was I-80. Back when all of the phone area code changes were going into effect, they gave a 3-month permissive dialing period then three months of "check the new area code" and then you started getting wrong numbers once the new numbers were assigned or "not in service". It's been over 40 years! Time to move on!
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