Snow Melt System Being Funded by the EU

[kalvado]

And I'm not kidding about the weather impacts this could cause. For example, 10% of New Jersey's land area is covered by impervious surfaces, and I'm assuming that snow melt systems would also be incorporated into sidewalks, parking lots, and rooftops. Most commercial snow melt systems put out over 500 watts per square meter, so this would add 50 watts per square meter on average during a blizzard. To put that number in perspective, anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions have added 2 watts per square meter of radiative forcing, and total solar insolation is 1367 watts. So that sheer amount of heat pollution would definitely have some impacts on climate.

And to put things further in perspective - NJ grid capacity is a touch over 17 MWt, for 8.8 M population that is about 2 kWt per capita.
At 500 W/sq meter that means 4 sq meters = 45 sq feet of heated pavement per capita. That is less than a footprint of a regular car - assuming ALL grid throughput is consumed.
Another way to look at it - at 20% efficiency, AM1.5 conditions and pretty short winter day, all unpaved area of NJ would have to be covered with solar cells to keep those paved 10%  snow free..
OK, someone already asked but you didn't answer - can we have a contact of your dealer? Must be some remarkable stuff they sell...

[kernals12]

And I'm not kidding about the weather impacts this could cause. For example, 10% of New Jersey's land area is covered by impervious surfaces, and I'm assuming that snow melt systems would also be incorporated into sidewalks, parking lots, and rooftops. Most commercial snow melt systems put out over 500 watts per square meter, so this would add 50 watts per square meter on average during a blizzard. To put that number in perspective, anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions have added 2 watts per square meter of radiative forcing, and total solar insolation is 1367 watts. So that sheer amount of heat pollution would definitely have some impacts on climate.

And to put things further in perspective - NJ grid capacity is a touch over 17 MWt, for 8.8 M population that is about 2 kWt per capita.
At 500 W/sq meter that means 4 sq meters = 45 sq feet of heated pavement per capita. That is less than a footprint of a regular car - assuming ALL grid throughput is consumed.
Another way to look at it - at 20% efficiency, AM1.5 conditions and pretty short winter day, all unpaved area of NJ would have to be covered with solar cells to keep those paved 10%  snow free..
OK, someone already asked but you didn't answer - can we have a contact of your dealer? Must be some remarkable stuff they sell...

I'm sorry, could you be more clear about your math? Square feet and kilowatts aren't comparable units of measurement

[froggie]

Snow tires and chains also make driving in the winter easy.

They also tear up the pavement and create noise.

Chains might.  Snow tires don't.  My snow tires are no noisier than my summer tires.

If we could find a way to incorporate solar power generation into the asphalt, then such a system of automatic ice and snow melting would be a godsend.  Imagine a nationwide scale project so that all the asphalt is connected to let the power flow to the areas most in need.

Rick

I'm aware of systems being tested in Europe, but they wear out more quickly than regular asphalt because they can't handle the weight of vehicles as well.

[GaryV]

If we could find a way to incorporate solar power generation into the asphalt, then such a system of automatic ice and snow melting would be a godsend.  Imagine a nationwide scale project so that all the asphalt is connected to let the power flow to the areas most in need.

Rick

Let me get this straight.  You're saying that the solar power generators in asphalt will collect enough power to melt the snow that is falling on said asphalt for hundreds of miles around?  Like in the storm that is hitting the east coast today?

[kernals12]

Snow tires and chains also make driving in the winter easy.

They also tear up the pavement and create noise.

Chains might.  Snow tires don't.  My snow tires are no noisier than my summer tires.

If we could find a way to incorporate solar power generation into the asphalt, then such a system of automatic ice and snow melting would be a godsend.  Imagine a nationwide scale project so that all the asphalt is connected to let the power flow to the areas most in need.

Rick

I'm aware of systems being tested in Europe, but they wear out more quickly than regular asphalt because they can't handle the weight of vehicles as well.

Most tire noise is caused by air getting trapped in the treads and then suddenly releasing, creating a pop. Snow tires have deeper tread grooves, so they have more space for air to accumulate. That's just science.

[kalvado]

If we could find a way to incorporate solar power generation into the asphalt, then such a system of automatic ice and snow melting would be a godsend.  Imagine a nationwide scale project so that all the asphalt is connected to let the power flow to the areas most in need.

Rick

Let me get this straight.  You're saying that the solar power generators in asphalt will collect enough power to melt the snow that is falling on said asphalt for hundreds of miles around?  Like in the storm that is hitting the east coast today?

In principles, solar flux integrated over about a  month in spring is enough to melt most of snow accumulation. If you could keep a fraction of energy incident during summer to use for melting snow in winter, there should be enough to do the job.
There is no cost-efficient way of doing so at this point, though. Energy transfer across the globe - from summer areas close to the equator  to winter areas - is another brilliant, but not so feasible idea.

[Alps]

And I'm not kidding about the weather impacts this could cause. For example, 10% of New Jersey's land area is covered by impervious surfaces, and I'm assuming that snow melt systems would also be incorporated into sidewalks, parking lots, and rooftops. Most commercial snow melt systems put out over 500 watts per square meter, so this would add 50 watts per square meter on average during a blizzard. To put that number in perspective, anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions have added 2 watts per square meter of radiative forcing, and total solar insolation is 1367 watts. So that sheer amount of heat pollution would definitely have some impacts on climate.

And to put things further in perspective - NJ grid capacity is a touch over 17 MWt, for 8.8 M population that is about 2 kWt per capita.
At 500 W/sq meter that means 4 sq meters = 45 sq feet of heated pavement per capita. That is less than a footprint of a regular car - assuming ALL grid throughput is consumed.
Another way to look at it - at 20% efficiency, AM1.5 conditions and pretty short winter day, all unpaved area of NJ would have to be covered with solar cells to keep those paved 10%  snow free..
OK, someone already asked but you didn't answer - can we have a contact of your dealer? Must be some remarkable stuff they sell...

I'm sorry, could you be more clear about your math? Square feet and kilowatts aren't comparable units of measurement

he said 500 W/sq m...

[kphoger]

Heck, forget roads.  This would be cool for use in airport pavement.

[seicer]

Snow tires and chains also make driving in the winter easy.

They also tear up the pavement and create noise.

Chains might.  Snow tires don't.  My snow tires are no noisier than my summer tires.

If we could find a way to incorporate solar power generation into the asphalt, then such a system of automatic ice and snow melting would be a godsend.  Imagine a nationwide scale project so that all the asphalt is connected to let the power flow to the areas most in need.

Rick

I'm aware of systems being tested in Europe, but they wear out more quickly than regular asphalt because they can't handle the weight of vehicles as well.

Most tire noise is caused by air getting trapped in the treads and then suddenly releasing, creating a pop. Snow tires have deeper tread grooves, so they have more space for air to accumulate. That's just science.

I'm not sure you've ever driven in the snow. Air doesn't get "trapped" in the treads and then "release." Tires with deeper treads, in general, create more noise because of the size of the tire. It's easily explained at https://www.utires.com/articles/car-tires-sound-loud/

[FrCorySticha]

Systems like this have been available for home and business driveways and sidewalks for decades, and they're not this massive panacea for snow removal that it might seem. Yes, for a light snowfall or an ice storm, they're fantastic, but they do become overwhelmed with larger storms. Snow melt has to go somewhere, and any form of drainage will freeze up. Also, snow is an insulator, and heavy snowfall will block the heat from having any impact beyond a certain point. It doesn't take more than 6+ inches from a snow squall to overwhelm these types of systems.

So, yes, they can be a great help on things like bridges that freeze over quickly, but it's still cheaper for many places to just keep plows and road salt at the ready.

That's why you turn it on before it starts snowing.

Of course, but they still get overwhelmed, just as a salted road can get overwhelmed by a heavy snowfall.

[kalvado]

Heck, forget roads.  This would be cool for use in airport pavement.

If I remember correctly, during the early cold war USAF had a heated runway somewhere in arctic as an intermediate field for transpolar bombers. Cannot find any specifics at  the moment, though.
Here is some experimental patch actually built: https://www.airporttech.tc.faa.gov/Products/Airport-Pavement-Software-Programs/Airport-Software-Detail/ArtMID/3708/ArticleID/2725/SMA-and-Heated-Pavement-in-China-1-2

 

[1995hoo]

....

Let's stick with a topic you have marginal knowledge over.

[kernals12]

Snow tires and chains also make driving in the winter easy.

They also tear up the pavement and create noise.

Chains might.  Snow tires don't.  My snow tires are no noisier than my summer tires.

If we could find a way to incorporate solar power generation into the asphalt, then such a system of automatic ice and snow melting would be a godsend.  Imagine a nationwide scale project so that all the asphalt is connected to let the power flow to the areas most in need.

Rick

I'm aware of systems being tested in Europe, but they wear out more quickly than regular asphalt because they can't handle the weight of vehicles as well.

Most tire noise is caused by air getting trapped in the treads and then suddenly releasing, creating a pop. Snow tires have deeper tread grooves, so they have more space for air to accumulate. That's just science.

I'm not sure you've ever driven in the snow. Air doesn't get "trapped" in the treads and then "release." Tires with deeper treads, in general, create more noise because of the size of the tire. It's easily explained at https://www.utires.com/articles/car-tires-sound-loud/.

Let's stick with a topic you have marginal knowledge over.

The link you put in completely backs me up.

All tire types make some noise. Winter tires (especially studded) and off-road car tires sound loud, due to their tread pattern goals. Also, the run-flat tires will be noisier, as they have stiffer sidewalls. Performance tires are less noisy, but not quiet due to their purpose — providing excellent grip and responsiveness.

More aggressive and symmetrical tire tread causes more noise. The reason for this is because of the air that goes in the grooves. Some air gets into the channel and compresses between the tire and the surface. As it goes out, it produces a sound, which repeats every time a new portion of air gets into the channel. The more space there is between the tread blocks (as in off-road tires), the more air gets trapped, which makes your car tires sound loud.

And I'm the one with marginal knowledge?

[kernals12]

Systems like this have been available for home and business driveways and sidewalks for decades, and they're not this massive panacea for snow removal that it might seem. Yes, for a light snowfall or an ice storm, they're fantastic, but they do become overwhelmed with larger storms. Snow melt has to go somewhere, and any form of drainage will freeze up. Also, snow is an insulator, and heavy snowfall will block the heat from having any impact beyond a certain point. It doesn't take more than 6+ inches from a snow squall to overwhelm these types of systems.

So, yes, they can be a great help on things like bridges that freeze over quickly, but it's still cheaper for many places to just keep plows and road salt at the ready.

That's why you turn it on before it starts snowing.

Of course, but they still get overwhelmed, just as a salted road can get overwhelmed by a heavy snowfall.

So because it may fail in the most extreme scenarios it's not worth doing at all?

[seicer]

Now here is a solution that could gain traction if it can be proven commercially: Fish blood could hold the answer to safer de-icing solutions during snowstorms

[CtrlAltDel]

Snow tires and chains also make driving in the winter easy.

They also tear up the pavement and create noise.

Chains might.  Snow tires don't.  My snow tires are no noisier than my summer tires.

If we could find a way to incorporate solar power generation into the asphalt, then such a system of automatic ice and snow melting would be a godsend.  Imagine a nationwide scale project so that all the asphalt is connected to let the power flow to the areas most in need.

Rick

I'm aware of systems being tested in Europe, but they wear out more quickly than regular asphalt because they can't handle the weight of vehicles as well.

Most tire noise is caused by air getting trapped in the treads and then suddenly releasing, creating a pop. Snow tires have deeper tread grooves, so they have more space for air to accumulate. That's just science.

I'm not sure you've ever driven in the snow. Air doesn't get "trapped" in the treads and then "release." Tires with deeper treads, in general, create more noise because of the size of the tire. It's easily explained at https://www.utires.com/articles/car-tires-sound-loud/

I'm the last person who wants to defend kernals, but according to your own cite, compression of air in tire treads is one of the sources of tire noise.

[SectorZ]

Now here is a solution that could gain traction if it can be proven commercially: Fish blood could hold the answer to safer de-icing solutions during snowstorms

I've never understood how we've not taken more steps to stop using road salt.

If I was old enough to understand the why behind it back then, I would have figured that the Mianus River Bridge collapse almost 40 years ago would have been the push to get there.

[jakeroot]

LOL, I can guaranty you that this wouldn't "eliminate the cost of snow plows."  There is no way that system works for anything more than a couple inches of snow.

If you turn it on right when the snow starts falling then it won't have time to accumulate except in extreme cases.

You've never been to the Keweenaw Peninsula in the middle of winter, have you?

I've been to Mount Baker, where it snows enough to make Houghton look like Phoenix. Much like Phoe---err, Houghton, WSDOT does everything possible to keep the roads clear, and you know damn well that Houghton does the same thing. Any type of technology that has the potential to slow the onset of snow build-up, or even straight-up eliminate it during relatively minor snows, should be investigated and considered wise investments.

[kernals12]

This eliminates most of the frost tax that I described a few weeks ago

-The Cost of Snow Removal
-The Cost of Warm Clothing
-The Cost of Natural Gas and Heating Oil
-The Cost of Snow Tires
-The Cost of Vehicles with All Wheel Drive
-The Cost of Engineering buildings to withstand the weight of snow
-Damage to highways by freeze thaw cycles
-Water pollution from road salt
-Closure of schools and businesses by snowstorms
-Disruption of airport operations by snowstorms
-Deaths from Hypothermia
-Car accidents from black ice
-Injuries from slipping on ice
-Seasonality of agriculture, construction, and tourism

And if it produces enough heat pollution, it helps alleviate the other 4.

[Alps]

This eliminates most of the frost tax that I described a few weeks ago

-The Cost of Snow Removal
-The Cost of Warm Clothing
-The Cost of Natural Gas and Heating Oil
-The Cost of Snow Tires
-The Cost of Vehicles with All Wheel Drive
-The Cost of Engineering buildings to withstand the weight of snow
-Damage to highways by freeze thaw cycles
-Water pollution from road salt
-Closure of schools and businesses by snowstorms
-Disruption of airport operations by snowstorms
-Deaths from Hypothermia
-Car accidents from black ice
-Injuries from slipping on ice
-Seasonality of agriculture, construction, and tourism

And if it produces enough heat pollution, it helps alleviate the other 4.

I'm gonna quote this so that if you ever realize how dumb it sounds, you can't delete it

[FrCorySticha]

Systems like this have been available for home and business driveways and sidewalks for decades, and they're not this massive panacea for snow removal that it might seem. Yes, for a light snowfall or an ice storm, they're fantastic, but they do become overwhelmed with larger storms. Snow melt has to go somewhere, and any form of drainage will freeze up. Also, snow is an insulator, and heavy snowfall will block the heat from having any impact beyond a certain point. It doesn't take more than 6+ inches from a snow squall to overwhelm these types of systems.

So, yes, they can be a great help on things like bridges that freeze over quickly, but it's still cheaper for many places to just keep plows and road salt at the ready.

That's why you turn it on before it starts snowing.

Of course, but they still get overwhelmed, just as a salted road can get overwhelmed by a heavy snowfall.

So because it may fail in the most extreme scenarios it's not worth doing at all?

1. Who said anything about extreme? 6 inches in a snow storm isn't extreme in most of the upper CONUS.
2. I didn't say it wasn't worth doing. "Yes, for a light snowfall or an ice storm, they're fantastic, but they do become overwhelmed with larger storms." It's a recognition that this kind of technology can help with many situations, but it likely won't eliminate massive numbers of plows and salt treatments. It can be a tool in the toolbox and can provide some benefit, but the tried and true routines will still be used for years to come.

[jeffandnicole]

Now here is a solution that could gain traction if it can be proven commercially: Fish blood could hold the answer to safer de-icing solutions during snowstorms

I've never understood how we've not taken more steps to stop using road salt.

It's cheap, there's plenty of it, it can easily be transported, and it lasts forever inside storage igloos and sheds.

[1995hoo]

This eliminates most of the frost tax that I described a few weeks ago

-The Cost of Snow Removal
-The Cost of Warm Clothing
-The Cost of Natural Gas and Heating Oil
-The Cost of Snow Tires
-The Cost of Vehicles with All Wheel Drive
-The Cost of Engineering buildings to withstand the weight of snow
-Damage to highways by freeze thaw cycles
-Water pollution from road salt
-Closure of schools and businesses by snowstorms
-Disruption of airport operations by snowstorms
-Deaths from Hypothermia
-Car accidents from black ice
-Injuries from slipping on ice
-Seasonality of agriculture, construction, and tourism

And if it produces enough heat pollution, it helps alleviate the other 4.

I'm gonna quote this so that if you ever realize how dumb it sounds, you can't delete it

I note the boldfaced. I didn't know the only reason vehicles are made with AWD is because of snow. I imagine Bugatti owners, among others, might be surprised to hear that.

(Technically, the correct term for the tires he references is "winter tires," not "snow tires.")

[kernals12]

Systems like this have been available for home and business driveways and sidewalks for decades, and they're not this massive panacea for snow removal that it might seem. Yes, for a light snowfall or an ice storm, they're fantastic, but they do become overwhelmed with larger storms. Snow melt has to go somewhere, and any form of drainage will freeze up. Also, snow is an insulator, and heavy snowfall will block the heat from having any impact beyond a certain point. It doesn't take more than 6+ inches from a snow squall to overwhelm these types of systems.

So, yes, they can be a great help on things like bridges that freeze over quickly, but it's still cheaper for many places to just keep plows and road salt at the ready.

That's why you turn it on before it starts snowing.

Of course, but they still get overwhelmed, just as a salted road can get overwhelmed by a heavy snowfall.

So because it may fail in the most extreme scenarios it's not worth doing at all?

1. Who said anything about extreme? 6 inches in a snow storm isn't extreme in most of the upper CONUS.
2. I didn't say it wasn't worth doing. "Yes, for a light snowfall or an ice storm, they're fantastic, but they do become overwhelmed with larger storms." It's a recognition that this kind of technology can help with many situations, but it likely won't eliminate massive numbers of plows and salt treatments. It can be a tool in the toolbox and can provide some benefit, but the tried and true routines will still be used for years to come.

6 inches an hour is absolutely insane.

[kernals12]

This eliminates most of the frost tax that I described a few weeks ago

-The Cost of Snow Removal
-The Cost of Warm Clothing
-The Cost of Natural Gas and Heating Oil
-The Cost of Snow Tires
-The Cost of Vehicles with All Wheel Drive
-The Cost of Engineering buildings to withstand the weight of snow
-Damage to highways by freeze thaw cycles
-Water pollution from road salt
-Closure of schools and businesses by snowstorms
-Disruption of airport operations by snowstorms
-Deaths from Hypothermia
-Car accidents from black ice
-Injuries from slipping on ice
-Seasonality of agriculture, construction, and tourism

And if it produces enough heat pollution, it helps alleviate the other 4.

I'm gonna quote this so that if you ever realize how dumb it sounds, you can't delete it

I note the boldfaced. I didn't know the only reason vehicles are made with AWD is because of snow. I imagine Bugatti owners, among others, might be surprised to hear that.

(Technically, the correct term for the tires he references is "winter tires," not "snow tires.")

It's the biggest reason by far. I don't think the many BMW and Audi owners in my area have all wheel drive because they want to go off roading.