Random Thoughts

[vdeane]

I think the bass clef is inferior to the treble clef.  Has fewer curves.

And yet there's that song about how it's all about that base (no treble).

You mean that jingle on a State Farm ad with Patrick Mahomes and some blond girl?

It's more than a jingle.

[kphoger]

I have heard that the bass clef is based on F letter as well -- although I can't see that.

The large curly stroke is the stem of the F and the two dots are the branches. The line between the two dots is the F line.

Here's something I drew up to illustrate this:




Music nerd time!

Western music notation began with Gregorian chant—that is, Roman Catholic priests and monks chanting in chapels beginning in the 9th and 10th Centuries.  In general, these plainchant tunes were learned by hearing and committed to memory.  However, a system of little strokes and squiggles was developed as an aid to the singer;  these would be drawn above the words on a page, and they indicated the rough up/down direction of notes belonging to each syllable.  It wasn't exact, but it wasn't intended to be:  it was just a help so the singer could make sure he was still on track with the melody.

But, because nerds gotta nerd, even back in the Early Middle Ages, somebody at some point said something like, "I could make this better".  So the next step was to use a horizontal line to indicate a base pitch, and then those strokes and squiggles could be placed at varying heights above or below the line to better indicate actual pitch.

Note that, in this context, I'm using the word "pitch" not to indicate an exact frequency, but rather a reference point within a certain musical mode.  What exact pitch you started singing on didn't matter, and it would have been based on the vocal range of the people singing;  it was only the intervals from that point that mattered.

It didn't take long for the number of horizontal lines to increase from one to four, which made for complete precision as to the pitch of each note.  Duration was still a fairly imprecise thing, as the rhythm of the song would flow based on the words of the text, which were not written in metered poetry, rather than any sort of strict beat.  So, even while the exact pitch of the reference note was still relatively unimportant and doubtless varied from choir to choir, every interval of every note of every syllable could now be notated precisely on the four-line staff.

With the four-line staff system, the horizontal line for the base pitch was drawn in colored ink, with the other three lines drawn in black.  Convention was that a red line indicated fa, and that a green or yellow line meant do.  This then evolved to have a letter written next to the colored line (C for do or F for fa), which then developed into what we know today as a clef sign.  Eventually, with the clef sign written at the beginning of the staff itself, the colored line became unnecessary, and all four lines could be drawn in the same color of ink.

Clef signs were movable, meaning that either one could be placed on any of the four lines of the staff.  (Realistically, there was no need to place the fa-clef on either of the bottom two lines, because that would be the same thing as the do-clef being placed on either of the top two lines, but I suppose you could anyway just for kicks.)  What we know today as ledger lines were also used if the vocal range exceeded the nine notes of the staff.  A flat-sign and a natural-sign were also developed for the note ti (si), and at some later point those could be combined with the clef sign to create what we'd call a key signature—as long as you remember that the starting pitch was still up for interpretation.

Here are the clef signs that were developed for Gregorian chant notation:



Note the similarity between the Fa-clef and the letter F, and between the Do-clef and the letter C.  This is no mere accident, but rather an feature of their evolution.  Even if "F" didn't mean 174.61 Hz, or "C" 261.63 Hz, they still meant the sixth and third degree of the aeolian mode (ABCDEFG).

So, for example, in the notation below...



... the top line of each staff is do, as indicated by the Do-clef being placed on the top line at the far left of each staff.  I can tell just by looking at it that the key center is whatever note is on the second space.  There are a couple of instances of a flattened 3rd, but most are natural.  So—as I read it without a musical instrument in front of me to confirm—this tune is in the Dorian mode, with an occasional Mixolydian brightening.  And, if we were to treat the Do-clef as actually meaning middle-C of the modern piano, then it would be in G-Dorian, with an occasional B♮ thrown in.

And there we have the beginnings of both the bass clef (F-clef) and the alto/tenor clef (C-clef).  The G-clef would develop later, and this is what would eventually become our treble clef.

[1995hoo]

I think the bass clef is inferior to the treble clef.  Has fewer curves.

And yet there's that song about how it's all about that base (no treble).

You mean that jingle on a State Farm ad with Patrick Mahomes and some blond girl?

It's more than a jingle.

....

OK, I'll take your word for it. I didn't watch the video, so it's a song I've never heard except on a State Farm commercial. Given that the girl in the commercial appears to be the same one in the still image for that video, I doubt I would have any interest in hearing the full song. (My taste in music runs more towards Bruce Springsteen and the Gaslight Anthem.)

[Beltway]

Nobody was claiming the bass clef is "inferior" because it's physically lower on the staff; it was about aesthetic or musical "inferiority." Quoting Merriam-Webster's third definition as if that settles the argument is just a dodge.
If "inferior" only meant "lower," then by that logic: the bass voice is "inferior" to the tenor, men's voices are inferior to the female voices, the cello is "inferior" to the viola, the baritone horn is inferior to the trumpet, the left hand on piano is "inferior" to the right, and so on; not what anyone meant.
If 'inferior' only meant 'lower,' then half the orchestra is inferior by geography alone.

Humor is lost on you, isn't it?

I caught the joke. I just didn't let it replace the argument.

[kphoger]

I used to think that the bass clef is inferior to the treble clef.

The treble clef looks like a decorative emblem.
The bass clef looks like a utilitarian symbol.

You were correct.

Merriam–Webster
inferior adjective
3 : situated lower down : lower

Nobody was claiming the bass clef is "inferior" because it's physically lower on the staff; it was about aesthetic or musical "inferiority." Quoting Merriam-Webster's third definition as if that settles the argument is just a dodge.

If "inferior" only meant "lower," then by that logic: the bass voice is "inferior" to the tenor, men's voices are inferior to the female voices, the cello is "inferior" to the viola, the baritone horn is inferior to the trumpet, the left hand on piano is "inferior" to the right, and so on; not what anyone meant.

If 'inferior' only meant 'lower,' then half the orchestra is inferior by geography alone.

Humor is lost on you, isn't it?

I caught the joke. I just didn't let it replace the argument.

Your "argument" that the bass clef is of lower quality because it looks less decorative than the treble clef?  Yeah, sure, OK.  I wouldn't want to distract anyone from that argument...

[PNWRoadgeek]

How do you change showerheads or shower head settings on a connected wire?

[kphoger]

How do you change showerheads or shower head settings on a connected wire?

What do you mean by that?

[The_Ginger]

I have heard that the bass clef is based on F letter as well -- although I can't see that.

The large curly stroke is the stem of the F and the two dots are the branches. The line between the two dots is the F line.

Here's something I drew up to illustrate this:

Very cool! It's cool to see this illustrated out.

music nerd time

This is very informative! 

[kphoger]

music nerd time

This is very informative! 

Thanks.  Several years ago, I learned Gregorian chant notation, and I have a font downloaded on the computer at home that I can use to actually type it out in Notepad.  Because of the limitations of Notepad, I have to then copy-and-paste it into Paint in order to stick the words in between the staves, but, other than that, I could fairly easily recreate the sheet of Catholic chant that I posted, at home using nothing but a computer keyboard.  (Of course, I'd have to hunt down the cheat sheet of what keys correspond to what notations.)

[Beltway]

I used to think that the bass clef is inferior to the treble clef.

The treble clef looks like a decorative emblem.
The bass clef looks like a utilitarian symbol.

You were correct.

Merriam–Webster
inferior adjective
3 : situated lower down : lower

Nobody was claiming the bass clef is "inferior" because it's physically lower on the staff; it was about aesthetic or musical "inferiority." Quoting Merriam-Webster's third definition as if that settles the argument is just a dodge.

If "inferior" only meant "lower," then by that logic: the bass voice is "inferior" to the tenor, men's voices are inferior to the female voices, the cello is "inferior" to the viola, the baritone horn is inferior to the trumpet, the left hand on piano is "inferior" to the right, and so on; not what anyone meant.

If 'inferior' only meant 'lower,' then half the orchestra is inferior by geography alone.

Humor is lost on you, isn't it?

I caught the joke. I just didn't let it replace the argument.

Your "argument" that the bass clef is of lower quality because it looks less decorative than the treble clef?  Yeah, sure, OK.  I wouldn't want to distract anyone from that argument...

You quoted what I said first --
I used to think that the bass clef is inferior to the treble clef.

And in early college years singing tenor in a chorus I stopped thinking that way. Men's voices nearly always are in the bass clef. I said that way upthread.

[kphoger]

Oh, so I guess that was your "argument", then.  Whatever it is.

[Beltway]

My argument when I was in high school. Long time ago..

[Rothman]

(I should go to bed)

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm finding the turn in this thread most impleasing.

[kphoger]

I caught the joke. I just didn't let it replace the argument.

My argument when I was in high school.

High school was a long time ago.  It's time to let it go, and all its arguments.

[PNWRoadgeek]

How do you change showerheads or shower head settings on a connected wire?

What do you mean by that?

It's a random thought, there is no meaning. Try to keep up, okay?

[Rothman]

How do you change showerheads or shower head settings on a connected wire?

What do you mean by that?

It's a random thought, there is no meaning. Try to keep up, okay?

Do you pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?

[PNWRoadgeek]

How do you change showerheads or shower head settings on a connected wire?

What do you mean by that?

It's a random thought, there is no meaning. Try to keep up, okay?

Do you pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?

No. You pick your nose.

[Beltway]

I caught the joke. I just didn't let it replace the argument.

My argument when I was in high school.

High school was a long time ago.  It's time to let it go, and all its arguments.

Yes, I mentioned it. You're the one trying to turn a 1970s anecdote into my current position.

[Rothman]

How do you change showerheads or shower head settings on a connected wire?

What do you mean by that?

It's a random thought, there is no meaning. Try to keep up, okay?

Do you pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?

No. You pick your nose.

I gotta man in Poughkeepsie that wants to talk to you.

[kphoger]

You're the one trying to turn a 1970s anecdote into my current position.

You're the one who refuses to let your argument be replaced.

[D-Dey65]

Wouldn't it be cool if there were GSV for railroads?

You know, I almost think it would. If you recall, last summer I wanted to capture an image or more of the junction of the CSX Plant City and Valrico Subdivisions in Keysville, Florida. However doing so would've involved breaking the law, risking my life or both.

[kphoger]

So, for example, in the notation below ... I can tell just by looking at it that the key center is whatever note is on the second space.  There are a couple of instances of a flattened 3rd, but most are natural.  So—as I read it without a musical instrument in front of me to confirm—this tune is in the Dorian mode, with an occasional Mixolydian brightening.  And, if we were to treat the Do-clef as actually meaning middle-C of the modern piano, then it would be in G-Dorian, with an occasional B♮ thrown in.

Got that backward.  It's in Mixolydian, with an occasional Dorian darkening.  Or, for example, G-Mixolydian with an occasional B♭ thrown in.

Nobody corrected me?

[kurumi]

Nobody corrected me?

I love composing with modes, but for some reason the names don't stick (except for Locrian, since it's so unusual).

[kphoger]

I love composing with modes, but for some reason the names don't stick (except for Locrian, since it's so unusual).

I'm actually surprised that they do stick with me.  Of the typical seven...

The two most common modes have names that sound alike:  Ionian and Aeolian, major and minor.

If you use all white keys, than D is for Dorian.

Lydian and Mixolydian have related names, and their scales begin on the subdominant and dominant.  The trick is remembering which is which.

And then Locrian, which is the oddball that's almost unusable, so as you mentioned it's easy to remember just because of that.

The only one I haven't mentioned is Phrygian, which I have no trick for.