Random Thoughts

[Scott5114]

Nobody corrected me?

I'm lucky if I notice I'm supposed to be playing B-naturals whenever someone gives me a piece in the key of C. 

[Molandfreak]

Nobody corrected me?

I'm lucky if I notice I'm supposed to be playing B-naturals whenever someone gives me a piece in the key of C. 

I sometimes wonder why there isn't a common transposition in wind instruments since the "natural" key is B♭. It really seems like an unnecessary pain in the butt for band directors to keep track of four or five different transposing keys or whether the euphoniums are reading in the treble clef (transposing) or bass clef (non-transposing), when orchestral and choir directors don't have to worry about any of that.

But along with the lack of uniformity comes some pretty unique workarounds. For the baritone saxophone, you can simply add three sharps to any euphonium, trombone, or higher tuba part and pretend it's in the treble clef, and it will be the same sounding tones.

[Scott5114]

I sometimes wonder why there isn't a common transposition in wind instruments since the "natural" key is B♭.

I don't really know all that much about transposition—I've only ever played non-transposing instruments—but I'm guessing it has something to do with the fact that most marching band music is itself in the key of B♭ (and if not, it's in E♭). Part of the reason why the key of C would trip me up so much is because it just wasn't a key we used a lot. (Well, and also because playing a B♮ on a standard trombone is kind of a pain in the ass because the slide has to go all the way out, which is really fun if the composer likes eighth notes or your drum major decides that would be a fine time to walk in front of you. I eventually got a trombone with a rotary valve that extends the tubing by the same length as sixth position, so 6s and 7s were easier to actually hit, and drum majors were easier to not hit, in a timely manner.)

[The_Ginger]

Well, and also because playing a B♮ on a standard trombone is kind of a pain in the ass because the slide has to go all the way out

I still can't do it on mine due to the shortness of my arms, but eventually...

(Currently, I play a straight trombone with no valves)

[Molandfreak]

I have never played a trombone with any attachments (only bought a plastic trombone and played in pep band for fun when I knew the band was going to be short on trombones), but I can definitely see that being a problem. In my band, trombones were always the leaders in the marching band, so hitting others with the slide was never a problem.

I wonder if they make extension attachments for tenor/bass trombones like some contrabass trombones have to make it easier to reach 7th position:

[Scott5114]

I still can't do it on mine due to the shortness of my arms, but eventually...

I started playing around your age and I could only hit 7th position if I grabbed the slide with my feet. (Fortunately at that level B♮ wasn't a note they had formally taught us yet, and it didn't start appearing until I was old enough to actually reach it.)

In my band, trombones were always the leaders in the marching band, so hitting others with the slide was never a problem.

At my school they always had the trombones in the back, behind the saxophones and in front of the tubas. I had a hilarious incident once when we were playing an away game at Okeene and the drum major decided to walk in front of me when I was hitting a C, so I almost smacked her with it. I quickly moved out of the way to avoid hitting her, but that meant I lost control of the outer slide and it fell off of my trombone and off of the stands.

After the song ended, a bunch of us went under the stands to look for the slide. After an hour of searching in the dark nobody could find it. I was distraught since I'd basically just ruined my trombone. Come to find out what had happened was there had been a pickup truck parked under the stands that the slide had landed in the bed of, which then drove off before any of us had a chance to find the slide. The next morning, the owner of the truck found it and, baffled, contacted the Okeene band director asking what he should do with it. That director then contacted my director, and they arranged to mail the slide back to me.

The drum major stayed away from the trombone section after that.

[The_Ginger]

I still can't do it on mine due to the shortness of my arms, but eventually...

I started playing around your age and I could only hit 7th position if I grabbed the slide with my feet. (Fortunately at that level B♮ wasn't a note they had formally taught us yet, and it didn't start appearing until I was old enough to actually reach it.)

I've seen it a total of one time and even then that was just one note in a jazz band song. I have attempted it plenty of times though, through the chromatic scale which I actually had to play for my All-State audition.

[kphoger]

I don't really know all that much about transposition—I've only ever played non-transposing instruments—but I'm guessing it has something to do with the fact that most marching band music is itself in the key of B♭ (and if not, it's in E♭).

No, it actually has to do with the fact that what trumpet teachers tell their students is a "C" doesn't actually produce the same pitch as an actual "C".

Well, now that I'm thinking this through, it is related to why so much band music is in the key of B♭ or E♭.  When the trumpet player is playing what she thinks is a C major scale, the piano player hears it as a B♭ major scale.  So, if the easiest key for the trumpet player to play in is "pretend C major", then the piano part will be written in "actual B♭ major" for that piece.  Likewise, when the trumpet player thinks she's playing in F major, the piano player is playing along in the actual key of E♭ major.

[Beltway]

You're the one trying to turn a 1970s anecdote into my current position.

You're the one who refuses to let your argument be replaced.

It was replaced by 1975.

[Molandfreak]

I don't really know all that much about transposition—I've only ever played non-transposing instruments—but I'm guessing it has something to do with the fact that most marching band music is itself in the key of B♭ (and if not, it's in E♭).

No, it actually has to do with the fact that what trumpet teachers tell their students is a "C" doesn't actually produce the same pitch as an actual "C".

Well, now that I'm thinking this through, it is related to why so much band music is in the key of B♭ or E♭.  When the trumpet player is playing what she thinks is a C major scale, the piano player hears it as a B♭ major scale.  So, if the easiest key for the trumpet player to play in is "pretend C major", then the piano part will be written in "actual B♭ major" for that piece.  Likewise, when the trumpet player thinks she's playing in F major, the piano player is playing along in the actual key of E♭ major.

Yes, and it didn't necessarily have to be this way. At least for brass instruments, the trombone, euphonium (when written in the bass clef), and tuba all have a neutral starting tone of B♭ when no valves are pressed or the trombone slide is in first position. This is the same as the trumpet, which for some reason uses the written key of C for the same note.

Woodwind instruments are different, and I'm guessing the reason for the discrepancy is because the fingerings in the key of concert B♭ are more straightforward. Blowing into a clarinet without pressing any fingerings will produce a written note of G, which corresponds to an F on the piano. To get to the written C on a clarinet requires covering the thumb hole and first three holes from the top of the instrument. This is easy enough to remember, but going to a C as written on the piano requires the thumb hole and first two holes from the top. The corresponding scale for B♭ on a clarinet uses more "natural" fingering than the C on a piano, so the written note of C is set to a "concert" B♭. Difficult for all others involved, but if you play the clarinet, you're able to pick up a bass or contrabass clarinet with no problem, because these fingerings are the exact same.

[Molandfreak]

Upon further research, I discovered that the alto clarinet has an identical fingering chart to the soprano clarinet's written notes despite the sounding tones being 7 semitones lower (I had no prior experience with alto clarinet music). So this is the actual reason for transposition—woodwinds in the same family have an identical fingering chart regardless of the actual tone played.




I wonder why transposition is not a thing for the recorder family, which has a similar pattern where the alto recorder both sounds and is written 7 semitones lower than the descant recorder. The fingering charts for the sopranino, alto, and bass recorders are the same, meanwhile the fingering charts for the descant and tenor recorders are the same. Seems like that would be a good fit for this sort of simplification since children learn to play recorders in elementary school.

[kphoger]

I wonder why transposition is not a thing for the recorder family, which has a similar pattern where the alto recorder both sounds and is written 7 semitones lower than the descant recorder. The fingering charts for the sopranino, alto, and bass recorders are the same, meanwhile the fingering charts for the descant and tenor recorders are the same. Seems like that would be a good fit for this sort of simplification since children learn to play recorders in elementary school.

Wait, what?  Seriously?  Dang, it looks like you're correct!  I've played both soprano and alto recorder, but only music that was hand-written by my father.  I've never actually seen commercially produced alto recorder sheet music.  But that is nuts, and it's a perfect example of why not every instrument should have its sheet music written in concert pitch.  Let me explain for those following along...

Those elementary school kids learn on a soprano recorder.  They learn that (top hole) + (thumb hole) = B, (top two holes) + (thumb hole) = A, (top three holes) + (thumb hole) = G, and then they can annoy their friends and family with Hot Cross Buns in the key of G-major.  Then they learn the rest of the fingerings, down to low C, plus high D and E.  Then they learn the sharp and flat notes.  One of them does a duet in church one Sunday, learns a couple of alternate fingerings (pinky or no pinky for F?), and gets excited about it.  So his mom buys him a nicer recorder, plus and alto recorder.  Except, on the alto recorder, (top hole) + (thumb hole) = E instead of B.  He uses the fingerings he learned for Hot Cross Buns, and it comes out a perfect fifth lower in pitch.

Hey, that's what alto instruments are for, right?

But, because alto recorder parts are written in concert pitch, this elementary school kid has to learn a second set of note names for every fingering—even though the fingerings are all exactly the same.  On a soprano recorder, (left hand index and middle fingers) + (right hand index and middle fingers) + (thumb hole) = G♯/A♭.  Set it down and pick up the alto, and now (left hand index and middle fingers) + (right hand index and middle fingers) + (thumb hole) = C♯/D♭.

Or, alternatively but meaning the same thing, he has to learn a second set of fingerings for every written note.

Much simpler, of course, would be to transpose the sheet music so that the fingerings match up between soprano and alto.  That way, a recorder player can learn just one set of fingerings.

[Molandfreak]

I wonder why transposition is not a thing for the recorder family, which has a similar pattern where the alto recorder both sounds and is written 7 semitones lower than the descant recorder. The fingering charts for the sopranino, alto, and bass recorders are the same, meanwhile the fingering charts for the descant and tenor recorders are the same. Seems like that would be a good fit for this sort of simplification since children learn to play recorders in elementary school.

Wait, what?  Seriously?  Dang, it looks like you're correct!  I've played both soprano and alto recorder, but only music that was hand-written by my father.  I've never actually seen commercially produced alto recorder sheet music.  But that is nuts, and it's a perfect example of why not every instrument should have its sheet music written in concert pitch.  Let me explain for those following along...

Those elementary school kids learn on a soprano recorder.  They learn that (top hole) + (thumb hole) = B, (top two holes) + (thumb hole) = A, (top three holes) + (thumb hole) = G, and then they can annoy their friends and family with Hot Cross Buns in the key of G-major.  Then they learn the rest of the fingerings, down to low C, plus high D and E.  Then they learn the sharp and flat notes.  One of them does a duet in church one Sunday, learns a couple of alternate fingerings (pinky or no pinky for F?), and gets excited about it.  So his mom buys him a nicer recorder, plus and alto recorder.  Except, on the alto recorder, (top hole) + (thumb hole) = E instead of B.  He uses the fingerings he learned for Hot Cross Buns, and it comes out a perfect fifth lower in pitch.

Hey, that's what alto instruments are for, right?

But, because alto recorder parts are written in concert pitch, this elementary school kid has to learn a second set of note names for every fingering—even though the fingerings are all exactly the same.  On a soprano recorder, (left hand index and middle fingers) + (right hand index and middle fingers) + (thumb hole) = G♯/A♭.  Set it down and pick up the alto, and now (left hand index and middle fingers) + (right hand index and middle fingers) + (thumb hole) = C♯/D♭.

Or, alternatively but meaning the same thing, he has to learn a second set of fingerings for every written note.

Much simpler, of course, would be to transpose the sheet music so that the fingerings match up between soprano and alto.  That way, a recorder player can learn just one set of fingerings.

Looking up why it is this way, it seems to be due to tradition. Recorders existed before modern transposing instruments existed, so the concept of transposing just wasn't applied to them retroactively.

Learning the clarinet is super easy for children with prior exposure to the sopranino, alto, or bass recorders since they have a complementary fundamental pitch (just lowered to B♭ in the case of the clarinet to match the fundamental pitch of standard band instruments). But getting used to an E♭ alto or contralto clarinet from that point is a learning curve since they do transpose. Learning a different fingering pattern is just fine for children, but too much for an adult to think about I guess.

Side note that the standard instrument names for the clarinet family make absolutely no sense compared to the saxophone and recorder families. E♭ soprano > B♭ soprano > alto > bass > contralto > contrabass?

[GaryV]

And guitar players like to play in keys with sharps (G, D or A major). Which drives the sax player in the praise band crazy.

Then there's [French] horns - sometimes E-flat, sometimes F

[kphoger]

And guitar players like to play in keys with sharps (G, D or A major). Which drives the sax player in the praise band crazy.

As someone who plays guitar in the band at church once in a blue moon (I'm normally on drums and fill in on keyboard sometimes), I've gotten so used to playing with a capo and just transposing in my head as I go, that now I actually sometimes struggle to play the chords as they're written.  For example, I'm so used to playing with a capo on the third fret, that I read "G" and there's a halfway decent chance that my fingers will make the shape of an E major chord.  This has happened in part because I have a hobby of arranging hymns out of the hymnal (many of which are in flat keys) for guitar, writing the chords in the hymnal in pencil, and then figuring out the best capo position from there;  almost never is the hymn already in a key I like for guitar.

[kphoger]

I had a hilarious incident once when we were playing an away game at Okeene and the drum major decided to walk in front of me when I was hitting a C, so I almost smacked her with it. I quickly moved out of the way to avoid hitting her, but that meant I lost control of the outer slide and it fell off of my trombone and off of the stands.

After the song ended, a bunch of us went under the stands to look for the slide. After an hour of searching in the dark nobody could find it. I was distraught since I'd basically just ruined my trombone. Come to find out what had happened was there had been a pickup truck parked under the stands that the slide had landed in the bed of, which then drove off before any of us had a chance to find the slide. The next morning, the owner of the truck found it and, baffled, contacted the Okeene band director asking what he should do with it. That director then contacted my director, and they arranged to mail the slide back to me.

The drum major stayed away from the trombone section after that.

As a percussionist, my own 'hilarious incidents' typically involve loud noises.  Twice, I've knocked a percussion instrument over into the brass section.

One time in rehearsal, the conductor kept telling me I needed to play the concert bass drum part louder.  Louder.  Louder!  When I finally played it loud enough for his liking, the whole thing tipped over and fell into the tuba section.

The other time, our college orchestral band was actually performing a concert.  We were in a church somewhere in California, playing Carmina Burana.  In this particular movement, I was playing the gong.  Due to space constraints, the legs/feet of the gong stand had to be angled in order to fit on a step.  In the middle of the performance, I knocked the whole thing over.  Into the trumpets.  On a tile floor.

[Beltway]

Learning the clarinet is super easy for children with prior exposure to the sopranino, alto, or bass recorders since they have a complementary fundamental pitch (just lowered to B♭ in the case of the clarinet to match the fundamental pitch of standard band instruments).

Playing the clarinet was too easy, that is why I asked the band director to move me to the oboe.

Both of my sisters said the same thing (age ranges put us in high school at the same time) and one moved to the bassoon.

Double reed instruments are really not that hard to play, the supposed extreme difficulty of playing those instruments is well exaggerated.

[Molandfreak]

Learning the clarinet is super easy for children with prior exposure to the sopranino, alto, or bass recorders since they have a complementary fundamental pitch (just lowered to B♭ in the case of the clarinet to match the fundamental pitch of standard band instruments).

Playing the clarinet was too easy, that is why I asked the band director to move me to the oboe.

Both of my sisters said the same thing (age ranges put us in high school at the same time) and one moved to the bassoon.

Double reed instruments are really not that hard to play, the supposed extreme difficulty of playing those instruments is well exaggerated.

I really want to experience playing a double reed instrument, but they're so expensive and the reeds seem like they're fragile. I know I'll never beat rescuing a clarinet from a dumpster and re-corking it for a total cost of $80.

[Beltway]

Learning the clarinet is super easy for children with prior exposure to the sopranino, alto, or bass recorders since they have a complementary fundamental pitch (just lowered to B♭ in the case of the clarinet to match the fundamental pitch of standard band instruments).

Playing the clarinet was too easy, that is why I asked the band director to move me to the oboe.

Both of my sisters said the same thing (age ranges put us in high school at the same time) and one moved to the bassoon.

Double reed instruments are really not that hard to play, the supposed extreme difficulty of playing those instruments is well exaggerated.

I really want to experience playing a double reed instrument, but they're so expensive and the reeds seem like they're fragile. I know I'll never beat rescuing a clarinet from a dumpster and re-corking it for a total cost of $80.

There is a wide variation, but

Most high‑school band programs consider a $2,000-$4,000 oboe the "standard" for a committed student. Below that, you can learn, but you'll fight intonation and mechanical issues.

[Max Rockatansky]

My wife just sent me message complaining about traffic on CA 180.  Her car translated what she said as "Juan 80."  It's stupid but I thought that was funny.

[kphoger]

I answer the main phone at work every so often.  (It rings my co-worker's desk first, but I'm next in line.)  So many of the people calling are salesmen from companies that we have no interest in talking to, but of course their first job is to just get me to transfer them to somebody.  So they'll say things like "Could I speak with the person in charge of ____".  If I ask them for more details, then of course they try to be as vague as possible, so I'll just transfer them to somebody.  But I've found the magic question to ask:

Do we already do business with you?

They won't flat-out lie and say yes.  No answer they give will get around the fact that the answer is no.  And at that point, I know they're just fishing for business.  And I also know nobody in here wants to talk to them.  So, bye-bye, "not interested", click.

[D-Dey65]

I just discovered a website on fallen flags. That's supposed to be a term for railroads that don't exist anymore, for people who don't know;
https://www.rr-fallenflags.org/
The thing is, some of the pictures are of railroad that still exist. Some are in the wrong sections, like a Metro-North MU at Botanical Gardens Metro-North station on the Harlem Line in the New York City Subway section. The NYC Subway section also has some PATH Trains, and some Staten Island Railway trains.  Well, Staten Island Railway is controlled by New York City Transit, so I guess that's okay.
https://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyct/nyct.html

I'm not going to publish any links to the photos out of respect for copyrighted material.  But there is one thing I noticed about somebody's 1970 photo of the vicinity of the Port Jefferson LIRR station;
https://www.rr-fallenflags.org/li/li.html

One of the pictures is from the westbound platform facing NY 25A, and it has a pic of a small green and white sign for the Village of Port Jefferson. This is obviously from the time when the NYSDOT still seemed to care about your average driver, and liked to make things easier for them.

[D-Dey65]

On MeTV, Svengoolie is running that 1977 horror movie The Car.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075809/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_3_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_The%20Car

https://youtu.be/mdcytrA2jmI?si=mStRg_Cn9Axx4Ha6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdcytrA2jmI&list=PLWwWORoWDqGk_qyVoDBEAN0xDWk3u-pW3&index=1
I keep thinking that this movie had to have been made by somebody in the anti-automobile/anti-highway lobby, or it was made to exploit the fears of people within that special interest group.

[Max Rockatansky]

The original Air Bud is canonically dead:

https://www.ign.com/articles/air-bud-returns-acknowledges-original-dog-buddy-is-canonically-dead

Apparently we are getting the gritty and grounded Air Bud movie that none of us realized we wanted.

[Molandfreak]

The original Air Bud is canonically dead:

https://www.ign.com/articles/air-bud-returns-acknowledges-original-dog-buddy-is-canonically-dead

Apparently we are getting the gritty and grounded Air Bud movie that none of us realized we wanted.

As the owner of a golden retriever who made it to the ripe age of 17, a 29-year-old golden wouldn't be able to shoot very many hoops. But hey, Disney magic could happen.