What are some alternative means of funding roads/highways?

[SkyPesos]

For commercial planes, there is a tariff on importing Airbus planes from Europe, which is why we're seeing more of them (specifically the narrowbody A320 family) getting produced in Airbus's Mobile, AL factory lately. So HighwayStar got his idea sort of implemented a couple of years ago, at least in the aircraft industry

[HighwayStar]

Tariffs would be a good way to do it.

Perfectly agreed.  Stop importing clunkers from Detroit!
Oh, wait...

No, stop importing the junk from overseas.

So all German and Japanese cars are junk and we should all be driving Fords and Chevys, or whatever other car brands that are American?

By overseas he probably means China.

No, I mean not US territory, which extends to Mexico, Canada, etc. even though they are not technically overseas.
Yes, we should all be driving American built cars, the Japanese drive Japanese cars, the Germans drive German cars, and both are very good at keeping other vehicles out of their home market. Only the US is stupid enough to screw itself and import vehicles en masse at the expense of our own industry.

So we shouldn't trade with other countries?

We should trade, but at a surplus and as an exporter of finished goods and renewables and an importer of raw materials.

So an American customer should not be able to buy a Toyota car?

Perhaps not prohibited outright, but it made an unappealing proposition. The Japanese consumer is also discouraged from buying an American car.

I do support some level of protection of American industry, but maybe not this.

Sometimes you have to crack a few eggs to make the omelette.

[HighwayStar]

For commercial planes, there is a tariff on importing Airbus planes from Europe, which is why we're seeing more of them (specifically the narrowbody A320 family) getting produced in Airbus's Mobile, AL factory lately. So HighwayStar got his idea sort of implemented a couple of years ago, at least in the aircraft industry

A step in the right direction for sure, but the end goal should be to take the factory away from Airbus and put it in American hands.

[kphoger]

So an American customer should not be able to buy a Toyota car?

Perhaps not prohibited outright, but it made an unappealing proposition. The Japanese consumer is also discouraged from buying an American car.

I don't get it.  In 2016, the Toyota Camry was the most American-made vehicle being sold, with 75% of its parts made in America and the assembly plant being in Kentucky.  Why should people have been discouraged from buying it?

[HighwayStar]

So an American customer should not be able to buy a Toyota car?

Perhaps not prohibited outright, but it made an unappealing proposition. The Japanese consumer is also discouraged from buying an American car.

I don't get it.  In 2016, the Toyota Camry was the most American-made vehicle being sold, with 75% of its parts made in America and the assembly plant being in Kentucky.  Why should people have been discouraged from buying it?

Because in 1950 90% of all vehicles in the world were being made in the US out of essentially 100% domestic components. THAT is the benchmark of excellence.
People should be discouraged from buying it because it is still not designed in the US, not manufactured by a US owned concern, and that 25% foreign component is the difference between being able to build it or not (as the current chip shortage shows).
People should be discouraged from buying it in favor of vehicles manufactured in the US of 100% domestic components by US owned concerns. (which by the way is EXACTLY what the Japanese themselves do with their domestic market)

[SkyPesos]

Japan makes their cars with 100% domestic materials? Considering they're an island, I had imagine they would have to import something in.

[Ned Weasel]

Y'all realize that car companies are multinational corporations that make their products in a variety of countries irrespective of where the brand is headquartered, right?

(OMG, I was in such a hurry when I typed this the first time.)

[kphoger]

What do I care where my car was designed, or even built?  All I care is whether it's reliable and suits my needs.  I don't particularly feel more compelled to support a factory in Kentucky than one in Nuevo León.  People are people.

My wife's granduncle said once when we were discussing how a lot of K-Mart's and Wal-Mart's merchandise was produced in Chinese sweatshops:  "And that's why I shop at Wal-Mart.  I'd rather some poor young lady have a job in a sweatshop than be on the street selling herself as a prostitute."

So an American customer should not be able to buy a Toyota car?

Perhaps not prohibited outright, but it made an unappealing proposition. The Japanese consumer is also discouraged from buying an American car.

I don't get it.  In 2016, the Toyota Camry was the most American-made vehicle being sold, with 75% of its parts made in America and the assembly plant being in Kentucky.  Why should people have been discouraged from buying it?

But my point is that, if you discouraged people from buying Toyotas because it's "foreign", then there's a good chance the vehicle they'd buy instead would be less American-made, not more.

[Big John]

So which is better - a Ford made in Mexico or a Toyota built in America?

[Roadgeekteen]

So which is better - a Ford made in Mexico or a Toyota built in America?

Depends on if you value the common worker or the common CEO more.

[kphoger]

So which is better - a Ford made in Mexico or a Toyota built in America?

Depends on if you value the common worker or the common CEO more.

What do you mean by "worker"?  There's more to making a car than just the CEO and the guy at the manufacturing plant.

[Roadgeekteen]

So which is better - a Ford made in Mexico or a Toyota built in America?

Depends on if you value the common worker or the common CEO more.

What do you mean by "worker"?  There's more to making a car than just the CEO and the guy at the manufacturing plant.

I was joking, I meant that for Ford the American company benefits but not the common guy who works in auto building.

[kphoger]

I was joking, I meant that for Ford the American company benefits but not the common guy who works in auto building.

I'm sure there are plenty of executives in both countries, either way.

[HighwayStar]

Japan makes their cars with 100% domestic materials? Considering they're an island, I had imagine they would have to import something in.

You are making the mistake of equating "components" and "materials", there is a key distinction. Japan imports raw materials, but very few components.

[HighwayStar]

So which is better - a Ford made in Mexico or a Toyota built in America?

Depends on if you value the common worker or the common CEO more.

That is not the relevant comparison. The alternative is US based manufacturing using US sourced components and under the management and ownership of Americans. Ford's Mexican operations would be treated no differently than Toyota.

[HighwayStar]

Y'all realize that car companies are multinational corporations that make their products in a variety of countries irrespective of where the brand is headquartered, right?

(OMG, I was in such a hurry when I typed this the first time.)

They are not "multinational" corporations, they are headquartered in one nation and generally owned by shareholders of the same. Moreover, that model is undesirable anyway, what we want are US firms making US products using US workers and US parts, and being owned by Americans.

[kphoger]

what we I want are US firms making US products using US workers and US parts, and being owned by Americans.

Edited for accuracy.  You seem to be mistaken about what we want.

[Ned Weasel]

what we I want are US firms making US products using US workers and US parts, and being owned by Americans.

Edited for accuracy.  You seem to be mistaken about what we want.

https://youtu.be/E09LU6XVyxs

[HighwayStar]

Just using a back of the envelope calculation, I figure the outdoor billboard market is worth about 3.75 Billion dollars per year. Thus, if we were to allow advertising on the roadways and auction it off, we could reasonably expect to capture about 3.75 Billion in billboard rent, which would be the same amount of revenue as a 3 cent raise in the federal gas tax.

[hbelkins]

Just using a back of the envelope calculation, I figure the outdoor billboard market is worth about 3.75 Billion dollars per year. Thus, if we were to allow advertising on the roadways and auction it off, we could reasonably expect to capture about 3.75 Billion in billboard rent, which would be the same amount of revenue as a 3 cent raise in the federal gas tax.

So if the government is going to get into the billboard business, will it outlaw private landowners along highways from leasing billboard space?

Property owner to business owner: "The government wants to charge you $1,500 per month to put up a sign on the inside of the right of way fence. I'll charge you $750 per month to put up a sign on the outside of the fence that is just as visible from the road."

If I'm the business owner, I know which offer I'm taking.

[HighwayStar]

Just using a back of the envelope calculation, I figure the outdoor billboard market is worth about 3.75 Billion dollars per year. Thus, if we were to allow advertising on the roadways and auction it off, we could reasonably expect to capture about 3.75 Billion in billboard rent, which would be the same amount of revenue as a 3 cent raise in the federal gas tax.

So if the government is going to get into the billboard business, will it outlaw private landowners along highways from leasing billboard space?

Property owner to business owner: "The government wants to charge you $1,500 per month to put up a sign on the inside of the right of way fence. I'll charge you $750 per month to put up a sign on the outside of the fence that is just as visible from the road."

If I'm the business owner, I know which offer I'm taking.

Your example has a couple of issues.
First, the government is not declaring the price for this right to be X. It is holding an auction, similar to how the RF spectrum is auctioned.
Second, you are reading the process backwards. The off highway signs are already there in many cases, the government rights on the other hand are new.

So the actual result is at auction the government signage rights must be worth whatever the off highway sign rights are worth + any marginal value from being on the actual roadway and thus presumably more desirable. Hence the way I calculated the revenue, on the existing value of the off highway signs is the floor, not the ceiling, of the government revenue under this scheme. Your own example proves this last statement, as if the current price of an off highway sign is Y, then it will be worth bidding for the government rights at say Y-1, with participants only becoming indifferent at a price of Y=X (assuming 0 marginal desirability due to location).
Also note, that under this scheme, no regulation of the off highway signs is necessarily required. Because operators like Lamar have already invested in off highway signs, they may choose to bid on rights in order to not use them, thereby preventing Joe's signs from bidding on those rights and putting up a competing billboard in front of theirs.
Of course, it would also be possible to enact some type of "beautification" law similar to what Johnson saddled us with to remove off highway signs over time, or at least prevent the addition of any more.

[CoreySamson]

I had an idea lately for funding a highway that I was going to make into its own thread, but since this thread exists, I'll put it here.

The idea is to replace the gas tax with a universal tolling system on county, state, and federal roads. With the advent of AET, toll gantries can be now be placed in tighter ROW than older tollbooths, so under this proposal, these would go everywhere. Toll gantries with plate readers would be placed every 5-10 miles (maybe closer together in urban areas) on major routes and would charge only a paltry amount (maybe only 1 or 2 cents or so per 10 miles). As part of registering a car, you would get an account of some sort on a website or app (almost like the EZTag Express system in Houston) where you would have to register your plate. On the account, you would just simply pay the toll amount every month via credit card just as people do with other bills. Shunpiking would be discouraged by putting these toll gantries on all county, state, and federal routes that serve through traffic.

Pros:
- States like Louisiana, Kentucky, and Colorado could easily benefit from such a system near geographic areas that can't be easily crossed (major rivers, mountain ranges, etc.).
- With a more comprehensive tolling system, shunpiking would take more time and effort to find back road alternates, and wouldn't be used as much.
- State DOTs could adjust tolls on routes based on congestion or road conditions to make certain routes more attractive.
- Using this system on city streets would make walking, biking, or using public transport a better option for very short distances.
- Artists could be hired to design toll gantries to look interesting and unique from city to city, breaking up the boredom of long drives.
- With plate readers scattered everywhere, they could capture the plate numbers for cars involved in Silver and Amber Alerts, and send them to local law enforcement.

Cons:
- More government regulation isn't really a good thing.
- The psychology of using tolling rather than a tax doesn't work out. People would feel like they're paying more for the same.
- People would not appreciate change and would likely be opposed to it (such is the case for all good public ideas, it seems).
- Shunpiking would likely be a major issue.
- Constructing all the new toll gantries would definitely cost a pretty penny.

I will admit that there are probably many other bad aspects of this idea in the real world, but it seems interesting on paper.

[HighwayStar]

I had an idea lately for funding a highway that I was going to make into its own thread, but since this thread exists, I'll put it here.

The idea is to replace the gas tax with a universal tolling system on county, state, and federal roads. With the advent of AET, toll gantries can be now be placed in tighter ROW than older tollbooths, so under this proposal, these would go everywhere. Toll gantries with plate readers would be placed every 5-10 miles (maybe closer together in urban areas) on major routes and would charge only a paltry amount (maybe only 1 or 2 cents or so per 10 miles). As part of registering a car, you would get an account of some sort on a website or app (almost like the EZTag Express system in Houston) where you would have to register your plate. On the account, you would just simply pay the toll amount every month via credit card just as people do with other bills. Shunpiking would be discouraged by putting these toll gantries on all county, state, and federal routes that serve through traffic.

Pros:
- States like Louisiana, Kentucky, and Colorado could easily benefit from such a system near geographic areas that can't be easily crossed (major rivers, mountain ranges, etc.).
- With a more comprehensive tolling system, shunpiking would take more time and effort to find back road alternates, and wouldn't be used as much.
- State DOTs could adjust tolls on routes based on congestion or road conditions to make certain routes more attractive.
- Using this system on city streets would make walking, biking, or using public transport a better option for very short distances.
- Artists could be hired to design toll gantries to look interesting and unique from city to city, breaking up the boredom of long drives.
- With plate readers scattered everywhere, they could capture the plate numbers for cars involved in Silver and Amber Alerts, and send them to local law enforcement.

Cons:
- More government regulation isn't really a good thing.
- The psychology of using tolling rather than a tax doesn't work out. People would feel like they're paying more for the same.
- People would not appreciate change and would likely be opposed to it (such is the case for all good public ideas, it seems).
- Shunpiking would likely be a major issue.
- Constructing all the new toll gantries would definitely cost a pretty penny.

I will admit that there are probably many other bad aspects of this idea in the real world, but it seems interesting on paper.

The tech overhead on that is absurdly high, along with arguably reasonable privacy concerns. It would likely cost trillions to build, with very high costs to maintain. Definitely neat from an economics standpoint, in that it allows some real time pricing, etc. but ultimately a Rube Goldberg solution.

- States like Louisiana, Kentucky, and Colorado could easily benefit from such a system near geographic areas that can't be easily crossed (major rivers, mountain ranges, etc.).

Arguably this is actually a disadvantage as well, as it results in distortions where states collect rents on things like rivers and mountain ranges.

The gas tax is actually not a bad way to fund roads except for two issues.
One, vehicles that use more gas pay more than those that use less, which is taken to the extreme with electric cars now cluttering the road.
Second, the gas tax does not fully capture the positive externalities of the road network in its taxable population.
The second issue can be solved with funding from broad taxes that apply to society as a whole, the first might be solved by eliminating gas taxes and only imposing vehicle registration taxes.
My above approach of using advertising to fund roadways, along with service plaza revenue, would provide a supplement to these, though would certainly not be enough to replace them.

[skluth]

I had an idea lately for funding a highway that I was going to make into its own thread, but since this thread exists, I'll put it here.

The idea is to replace the gas tax with a universal tolling system on county, state, and federal roads. With the advent of AET, toll gantries can be now be placed in tighter ROW than older tollbooths, so under this proposal, these would go everywhere. Toll gantries with plate readers would be placed every 5-10 miles (maybe closer together in urban areas) on major routes and would charge only a paltry amount (maybe only 1 or 2 cents or so per 10 miles). As part of registering a car, you would get an account of some sort on a website or app (almost like the EZTag Express system in Houston) where you would have to register your plate. On the account, you would just simply pay the toll amount every month via credit card just as people do with other bills. Shunpiking would be discouraged by putting these toll gantries on all county, state, and federal routes that serve through traffic.

Pros:
- States like Louisiana, Kentucky, and Colorado could easily benefit from such a system near geographic areas that can't be easily crossed (major rivers, mountain ranges, etc.).
- With a more comprehensive tolling system, shunpiking would take more time and effort to find back road alternates, and wouldn't be used as much.
- State DOTs could adjust tolls on routes based on congestion or road conditions to make certain routes more attractive.
- Using this system on city streets would make walking, biking, or using public transport a better option for very short distances.
- Artists could be hired to design toll gantries to look interesting and unique from city to city, breaking up the boredom of long drives.
- With plate readers scattered everywhere, they could capture the plate numbers for cars involved in Silver and Amber Alerts, and send them to local law enforcement.

Cons:
- More government regulation isn't really a good thing.
- The psychology of using tolling rather than a tax doesn't work out. People would feel like they're paying more for the same.
- People would not appreciate change and would likely be opposed to it (such is the case for all good public ideas, it seems).
- Shunpiking would likely be a major issue.
- Constructing all the new toll gantries would definitely cost a pretty penny.

I will admit that there are probably many other bad aspects of this idea in the real world, but it seems interesting on paper.

It would be much easier and cheaper to just capture the miles driven every year when plates are renewed. Vehicle owners could pay it all at once or it could be split into a monthly bill. Drivers might also be required to estimate their yearly mileage in advance much like self-employed workers pay taxes.

The way things are going, your car may be permanently connected to the web in 30 years and road use could be calculated automatically. It would then be deducted from your bank account.

These ideas are draconian. This doesn't mean they won't happen. Something will need to be done as people drive more EVs. I'm just glad I don't have to sell people on how to best do it.

[HighwayStar]

I had an idea lately for funding a highway that I was going to make into its own thread, but since this thread exists, I'll put it here.

The idea is to replace the gas tax with a universal tolling system on county, state, and federal roads. With the advent of AET, toll gantries can be now be placed in tighter ROW than older tollbooths, so under this proposal, these would go everywhere. Toll gantries with plate readers would be placed every 5-10 miles (maybe closer together in urban areas) on major routes and would charge only a paltry amount (maybe only 1 or 2 cents or so per 10 miles). As part of registering a car, you would get an account of some sort on a website or app (almost like the EZTag Express system in Houston) where you would have to register your plate. On the account, you would just simply pay the toll amount every month via credit card just as people do with other bills. Shunpiking would be discouraged by putting these toll gantries on all county, state, and federal routes that serve through traffic.

Pros:
- States like Louisiana, Kentucky, and Colorado could easily benefit from such a system near geographic areas that can't be easily crossed (major rivers, mountain ranges, etc.).
- With a more comprehensive tolling system, shunpiking would take more time and effort to find back road alternates, and wouldn't be used as much.
- State DOTs could adjust tolls on routes based on congestion or road conditions to make certain routes more attractive.
- Using this system on city streets would make walking, biking, or using public transport a better option for very short distances.
- Artists could be hired to design toll gantries to look interesting and unique from city to city, breaking up the boredom of long drives.
- With plate readers scattered everywhere, they could capture the plate numbers for cars involved in Silver and Amber Alerts, and send them to local law enforcement.

Cons:
- More government regulation isn't really a good thing.
- The psychology of using tolling rather than a tax doesn't work out. People would feel like they're paying more for the same.
- People would not appreciate change and would likely be opposed to it (such is the case for all good public ideas, it seems).
- Shunpiking would likely be a major issue.
- Constructing all the new toll gantries would definitely cost a pretty penny.

I will admit that there are probably many other bad aspects of this idea in the real world, but it seems interesting on paper.

It would be much easier and cheaper to just capture the miles driven every year when plates are renewed. Vehicle owners could pay it all at once or it could be split into a monthly bill. Drivers might also be required to estimate their yearly mileage in advance much like self-employed workers pay taxes.

The way things are going, your car may be permanently connected to the web in 30 years and road use could be calculated automatically. It would then be deducted from your bank account.

These ideas are draconian. This doesn't mean they won't happen. Something will need to be done as people drive more EVs. I'm just glad I don't have to sell people on how to best do it.

There is no need for any such approach however, we could fully fund all roads with general means funding, rather than just charging vehicle owners. Everyone benefits from the road network, therefore everyone should pay for it. In fact, given the administrative overhead on taxing vehicles, or anything else on a specific level, the best approach would be something like a VAT that provides all funding with a minimum of apparatus.