To Renumber or Not, That is the Question

[kphoger]

in renumbering you distribute gaps for future roads where possible (akin to how Basic is coded with line numbers by 10)

I find that number-by-tens BASIC system to have other real-life applications as well, so I applaud you for referencing it.  For example, I name files that way when I want to be able to find them again in order, but when I know I'll probably be sticking some in the middle of the list later.  For example, when I'm saving image files to use later in a slideshow, and I don't identify them all in the correct order.

With highways, you may need to expand the basic grid numbers to go beyond 99.  Perhaps use 1-199 as the basic grid, and then make "three-digit" routes be numbered 200 or larger.

Geez, if you're citing BASIC in your design spec, there is something seriously wrong with the fundamental premise.

Oh.  Oops.  I take it back, then.

[ran4sh]

Renumber I-5, I-10, I-90, and I-95 into I-1000, a super beltway.

The equivalent route in Australia is numbered 1, which is why I have suggested using I-1 for such a route.

[Scott5114]

At the first casino I worked at, the rows of slot machines were initially numbered with only odd numbers, so after bank 1 you had bank 3, then bank 5, and so on. Whenever they rearranged or added banks, then sometimes you'd see even numbers added in between. That still doesn't explain how we got the first four rows of the Delta section going D-01, D-03, D-02, D-05 though. This did have the disadvantage that you never knew if a given even number was a valid bank number or not (For example, I remember there was an A-02, D-02 and E-02, but I don't remember if there was a B-02 or C-02, and there definitely wasn't an F-02, G-02, or S-02. S only had S-01 and S-08.)

The second casino I worked at had been open twice as long as the first one and it had been reshuffled enough times that the numbers were such a mess, even with  they just handed out maps to the new employees that worked the floor.

in renumbering you distribute gaps for future roads where possible (akin to how Basic is coded with line numbers by 10)

I find that number-by-tens BASIC system to have other real-life applications as well, so I applaud you for referencing it.  For example, I name files that way when I want to be able to find them again in order, but when I know I'll probably be sticking some in the middle of the list later.  For example, when I'm saving image files to use later in a slideshow, and I don't identify them all in the correct order.

With highways, you may need to expand the basic grid numbers to go beyond 99.  Perhaps use 1-199 as the basic grid, and then make "three-digit" routes be numbered 200 or larger.

Geez, if you're citing BASIC in your design spec, there is something seriously wrong with the fundamental premise.

Oh.  Oops.  I take it back, then.

BASIC's problem is relying on line numbers for flow control to begin with. In BASIC, you do something like "IF X=5 GOTO 200". In every other language, whenever you need to jump to a code block, you name the code block (usually by placing it in a function) and say "if x=5, do someAppropriateFunction()". This means that you can rearrange the code however you like and not need to worry about the line numbers.

Line numbers are only used when program execution crashes, to denote the last line that executed ("overflow at line 67"), so you just consult the line number on the version you just ran (usually your editor will keep track of them for you).

[I-55]

With highways, you may need to expand the basic grid numbers to go beyond 99.  Perhaps use 1-199 as the basic grid, and then make "three-digit" routes be numbered 200 or larger.

And that is the numbering system of my fictional country's interstates. My 300+ page atlas of 88 states will be drawn when I have the appropriate size paper (everything is already planned out. Might change some place names due to copyright and other reasons), and then shared in fictional upon completion in who knows how many years.

3dis for the 100-199 routes are 4di from 2100-9199, as 1002-1999 is reserved for additional auxiliary routes of 2-99.

[Scott5114]

With highways, you may need to expand the basic grid numbers to go beyond 99.  Perhaps use 1-199 as the basic grid, and then make "three-digit" routes be numbered 200 or larger.

And that is the numbering system of my fictional country's interstates. My 300+ page atlas of 88 states will be drawn when I have the appropriate size paper (everything is already planned out. Might change some place names due to copyright and other reasons), and then shared in fictional upon completion in who knows how many years.

3dis for the 100-199 routes are 4di from 2100-9199, as 1002-1999 is reserved for additional auxiliary routes of 2-99.

I've done a fictional map roughly the size of Texas, with 14 states (though we call them counties). What I've found works well is to draw it in Inkscape with a scale of 1 mile = 100px. You can then use the Measure Path tool to measure mileposts by dividing the pixel length of the path by 100.

For extra credit, you can use layers to show/hide labels for different zoom levels, and then export them as PNGs, tile them with tileup, and display the whole shebang as a slippy map using Leaflet.

[I-55]

With highways, you may need to expand the basic grid numbers to go beyond 99.  Perhaps use 1-199 as the basic grid, and then make "three-digit" routes be numbered 200 or larger.

And that is the numbering system of my fictional country's interstates. My 300+ page atlas of 88 states will be drawn when I have the appropriate size paper (everything is already planned out. Might change some place names due to copyright and other reasons), and then shared in fictional upon completion in who knows how many years.

3dis for the 100-199 routes are 4di from 2100-9199, as 1002-1999 is reserved for additional auxiliary routes of 2-99.

What I've found works well for a fictional world map is to draw it in Inkscape with a scale of 1 mile = 100px. You can then use the Measure Path tool to measure mileposts by dividing the pixel length of the path by 100.

For extra credit, you can use layers to show/hide labels for different zoom levels, and then export them as PNGs, tile them with tileup, and display the whole shebang as a slippy map using Leaflet.

I use PowerPoint for planning routes and cities (only because I'm familiar with PPT, in the future I might expand my software selection). Generally I draw the state and national boundaries on a piece of graph paper, then scan it and insert into PPT, then place major cities and mainline interstates with shapes. Then when I draw the map freehand, Ill include everything else. If I was more familiar with Inkscape or another software I'd probably use it for the actual map since it'd probably be more precise and have shortcuts to certain functions, but right now it's hard to beat the hand drawns.

[Scott5114]

Most of the Inkscape functions I use for map drawing aren't even included in PowerPoint, like the aforementioned Measure Path tool (which actually measures the length of the path itself, as if you were driving down the road measuring it with an odometer, and not just calculating the height and width of the bounding box it sits in). It also didn't have layer support the last time I worked with it, which is vital to doing the neat tricks with Leaflet that I mentioned.

[Ned Weasel]

Actually the comparison to the metric system is not that different.
being consistent with all but two other countries on the planet why does this matter in the age of the internet, the smartphone, etc. You don't need to be consistent with other countries, I have seen a number of sites with international users where everything is converted to display correctly in your countries system. So why align them if most people no longer encounter the issue? Not actually advocating anything either way here, just illustrating the similarity I see.

If you're at a job site, especially one with no phone/internet signal or if your hands are too busy to use a phone or computer anyway, and you need to apply measurements in meters and/or subdivisions thereof, because that's what most of the world uses, thinking in British Imperial units isn't going to help you.

[Max Rockatansky]

Washington and Nevada did their renumberings the best given they range based instead of grid.  That said, it is a complete waste of time and money nowadays for a DOT to renumber the entire system.  Renumberings made more sense when people relied more on maps and the actual field signage. 

[Avalanchez71]

It is too costly to renumber the system.  It is too bad that US 412, US 400, US 425 and some others are offenders, however, the motoring public could care less these days.  They are sheeple and rely on their GPS and navigation systems. 

I do like the suffix system it works for the original intent.  Having said that who besides the few of us on this board and AASHTO know?

[kphoger]

I've done a fictional map roughly the size of Texas

Wow, that must have taken a lot of paper.  Texas is a big state.

If you're at a job site, especially one with no phone/internet signal or if your hands are too busy to use a phone or computer anyway, and you need to apply measurements in meters and/or subdivisions thereof, because that's what most of the world uses, thinking in British Imperial units isn't going to help you.

I never think in British Imperial units.  I always think in US Customary units.  In so doing, I avoid discrepancies in cases where the two systems are not equivalent.

the motoring public could care less these days.

My personal opinion is that they could care more.  But not that they should.

[Scott5114]

I've done a fictional map roughly the size of Texas

Wow, that must have taken a lot of paper.  Texas is a big state.

It's a 10.3 MB SVG file, actually. As I mentioned above, I set the scale at 1 mile = 100px, but one of the quirks of the SVG file format is that I could have actually made a canvas 990 miles across and the file size would still have been more or less the same.

[GaryV]

There was a question about the "it will break again" issue in another thread, but my response is basically that in renumbering you distribute gaps for future roads where possible (akin to how Basic is coded with line numbers by 10), can use 3 digit or special route numbers in many cases, may actually transfer a number because another road is being replaced, or can use a state designation if all else fails.

Your premise is that US Highways must follow very strict rules so people will know where they are going.  Now you're saying you can mix in some state highway numbers totally out of sync and that's just fine?  How will people know where they are going if the numbers don't align properly?

[kphoger]

It's a 10.3 MB SVG file, actually. As I mentioned above, I set the scale at 1 mile = 100px

Yes, but you may have noticed I snipped that part out.

[Roadgeekteen]

It is too costly to renumber the system.  It is too bad that US 412, US 400, US 425 and some others are offenders, however, the motoring public could care less these days.  They are sheeple and rely on their GPS and navigation systems. 

I do like the suffix system it works for the original intent.  Having said that who besides the few of us on this board and AASHTO know?

The ones to blame are the people who assigned those ridiculous numbers.

[SEWIGuy]

It is too costly to renumber the system.  It is too bad that US 412, US 400, US 425 and some others are offenders, however, the motoring public could care less these days.  They are sheeple and rely on their GPS and navigation systems. 

WTF seriously?  Were the people who used the original road maps "sheeple" because they didn't navigate by the stars?  Am I a "sheeple" because I go to the grocery store instead of growing and hunting my own food?

The fact is that the vast majority of people use the technology available to them because its....easy and convenient.

[Roadgeekteen]

It is too costly to renumber the system.  It is too bad that US 412, US 400, US 425 and some others are offenders, however, the motoring public could care less these days.  They are sheeple and rely on their GPS and navigation systems. 

WTF seriously?  Were the people who used the original road maps "sheeple" because they didn't navigate by the stars?  Am I a "sheeple" because I go to the grocery store instead of growing and hunting my own food?

The fact is that the vast majority of people use the technology available to them because its....easy and convenient.

Sometimes GPS conflicts with road signs and people blindly follow the GPS.

[SEWIGuy]

It is too costly to renumber the system.  It is too bad that US 412, US 400, US 425 and some others are offenders, however, the motoring public could care less these days.  They are sheeple and rely on their GPS and navigation systems. 

WTF seriously?  Were the people who used the original road maps "sheeple" because they didn't navigate by the stars?  Am I a "sheeple" because I go to the grocery store instead of growing and hunting my own food?

The fact is that the vast majority of people use the technology available to them because its....easy and convenient.

Sometimes GPS conflicts with road signs and people blindly follow the GPS.

By "sometimes"  you mean "incredibly rarely"  then sure.

[Roadgeekteen]

It is too costly to renumber the system.  It is too bad that US 412, US 400, US 425 and some others are offenders, however, the motoring public could care less these days.  They are sheeple and rely on their GPS and navigation systems. 

WTF seriously?  Were the people who used the original road maps "sheeple" because they didn't navigate by the stars?  Am I a "sheeple" because I go to the grocery store instead of growing and hunting my own food?

The fact is that the vast majority of people use the technology available to them because its....easy and convenient.

Sometimes GPS conflicts with road signs and people blindly follow the GPS.

By "sometimes"  you mean "incredibly rarely"  then sure.

I know, just remember that computers aren't perfect.

[hotdogPi]

Eastern terminus of I-69/I-94 in Port Huron, MI.

Pre-2011:  Right exit to the Blue Water Bridge to Sarnia, Ontario.  Left exit to a connector road to M-25 (and to the westbound business loops).


Late 2012 after completion of two-year project to reconstruct/widen/redesign:  The movements were switched; new right C/D exit to M-25 and the business loops, keep left to the Blue Water Bridge.  This split is about 3/4 mile west of the old configuration, but I think for all intents and purposes these are "same signs."  (The new I-94/I-69 END sign is farther east at its old location.)


Too many motorists who hadn't yet updated their GPS units stubbornly insisted on keeping left for M-25 despite the signs and found themselves on the bridge heading into Canada.  (A friend of mine who worked for MDOT at the time told me it happened with a few dozen people a day.)  So not long after the new signs above went up, MDOT replaced them again with newer signs displaying American and Canadian flag graphics, adding a yellow toll banner, and replacing the "Fort Gratiot" control with "USA."

[thspfc]

To answer the question: not. One of my favorite phrases is "literally nobody cares" . Sure, some people on the forum care, but there are 330 million people in this country and only a thousand or so active members here. Leave it the way it is. Renumbering only causes confusion.

[GaryV]

Weren't there also signs at Port Huron warning that ramps had changed, and don't follow GPS instructions?

[MikeTheActuary]

With highways, you may need to expand the basic grid numbers to go beyond 99.  Perhaps use 1-199 as the basic grid, and then make "three-digit" routes be numbered 200 or larger.

Many years ago, I worked out a numbering system where the national grid was numbered in the range of 100-299, generally skipping numbers to leave room for additional highways, and then using the range 300-399 for highways that didn't fit the grid, and/or future expansion.  400-599 could be used in a grid-like manner for lesser/regional highways (with the ability for numbers to repeat -- 401 could be on the west coast, while another 401 might be somewhere along the Mississippi), 600-899 for local connectors and bypasses, and 900-999 for special-purpose highways (e.g. parks).

I'd then prefix the highways to indicate the general class of the road: X/A/B/C/D, with X being essentially interstate standard, etc.   States could use the ranges 1-99 or 1000+ for state highways  using the same letter/signage scheme.

Of course, the cost and confusion of such a complete renumbering would make it prohibitive (fictional), and unnecessary given the rise of GPS for long-distance navigation.  But it was an intriguing exercise to go through.

[wanderer2575]

Weren't there also signs at Port Huron warning that ramps had changed, and don't follow GPS instructions?

Yes, there were a couple portable VMSs stationed by the roadside for awhile, reading "Your GPS Is Wrong / Follow Posted Signs."  I'm sorry I never got a photo of one.

[SkyPesos]

Most of my renumbering ideas are purely fictional since I don't have a better reason than "because why not?". But here's one I mentioned here before that I'm dead set on:

- This ties into my idea to swap OH 161 and OH 16 west of Granville, to keep a single route number and exit number sequence on the whole freeway section. Because 161's western terminus is west of 16's, and Ohio completed the freeway about a decade ago and added exit numbers on non-interstates, currently, the mileposts and exit numbers drop down from where 161 ends and 16 continues the freeway, causing some duplicated exit numbers on the freeway. Two of the digits are the same, so white-out should be adequate for turning 161 signage to 16