Limon

Started by JayhawkCO, November 25, 2021, 11:15:21 AM

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Which describes you?

I have been to/through Limon, CO and I think it's fine as a primary control city.
38 (40.4%)
I have NOT been to/through Limon, CO and I think it's fine as a primary control city.
17 (18.1%)
I have been to/through Limon, CO and I don't think it should be used as a primary control city.
16 (17%)
I have NOT been to/through Limon, CO and I don't think it should be used as a primary control city.
23 (24.5%)

Total Members Voted: 94

thspfc

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 09:21:26 AM
Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 11:01:20 PM
While never having been through Limon, I've spent plenty of time in the Plains and Rockies - Colorado specifically where I've been just about everywhere except the southeast quadrant.

Kansas City is probably 6 or 7 tiers above Limon for every criteria you can think of. And people
actually have an idea of where it is.

I mean, St. Louis and Baltimore both have larger metro areas than Kansas City. At what point do we not concern ourselves with population as the 100% rule for where a highway points to?

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 11:01:20 PMWhat is it about Limon that you need to see in person? It's a small highway stop town, one of hundreds of its kind in the US. How is visiting (which I eventually will) going to convince me it should be a control city?

Really, I don't think you've got anything here besides calling other people inexperienced. And it's fair to point out that you've been there while many haven't. But you can't just say "expierence"  and end it there.

Basically it's the only place within 80 miles where you can even get your car worked on if you have an issue. Having had my wife's car have issues on both directions of a Denver-KC trip here recently (at Salina and Colby respectively), I can appreciate how much this matters more than most. Had we been somewhere even less populated than those cities, we would have been SOL even trying to find an auto parts store much less a mechanic to look at it. I think control cities should be a mixture of a directional aid as well as a service locator, which again matters a great deal more in the West than it does east of the Mississippi where there are services everywhere.

I'd maybe be fine if they wanted to remove Limon and maybe use Hays instead, but going straight to Kansas City which is 600 miles away is far too distant. It would be like the western version of I-95 signing Miami in Petersburg.
Not at all. There are major cities between Petersburg and Miami - Fayetteville, Savannah, Jacksonville. The only cities of note between Denver and KC are so close to KC that it wouldn't be logical to sign them.

Why not St. Louis? Kansas City is 85% as large as St. Louis but only 70% as far from Denver as St. Louis. Also, KC and STL are undoubtedly in the same "tier" of cities.

QuoteAt what point do we not concern ourselves with population as the 100% rule for where a highway points to?
I think I can answer that:

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I believe the argument for Limon being a primary cross-country Interstate control city is that it feels bigger than its population, and has a major junction and stuff?


In the Limon """metro area""" I count 10 fast food restaurants, 8 hotels, 2 truck stops, an airport you might be able to crash-land a helicopter on, and the junctions of I-70, US-287, and US-24.

In Kansas City metro area I count at least 200 hotels, at least 30 truck stops, probably 500 fast food restaurants, a top 50 largest airport in the US, and the junctions of I-70, I-35, I-29, I-49, US-69, US-169, US-71, US-50, US-40, US-24, and probably others I'm missing. Oh, and 1,276 times more people.

Once again, it's not a question of whether a place deserves to be a control city. It's a question of whether it's the best fit control city for the route. And even though Kansas City is a lot further away, I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I will bet money that at least 70% of cross-country travelers through Denver have no idea what or where Limon is. If the vast majority of the people the signs aim to educate are clueless, then the signs are unhelpful. Real life is not AARoads. Normal travelers don't care about or remember nowhere towns they pass through on I-70.


thspfc

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 02:07:06 PM
Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 09:03:01 AM
Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 04:16:33 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 26, 2022, 03:09:58 PM
Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I can say it with a straight face because I can get to Limon before I need gas/food/hotel and I can't get to KC.
Why does that matter? How does putting Limon on a sign help you find gas/food/hotels as a traveler on I-70 in Denver?

Are there not like 30 other places to stop for gas/food/hotel between Denver and KC?

Limon is also only 90 miles away from Denver. How does "Limon" tell you that gas/food/hotels are 90 miles away (which, they aren't; by your logic Aurora should be signed along I-70 EB in Denver. Or even every exit that has those things).

If you want to say that KC is too far, that's at least a valid point. I disagree because I think more than one factor should be considered in posting control cities. But saying that Limon should be a control city because it has gas, food, and hotels is nonsense because KC has all of those things 50 times over.

Yes, KC is too far. Maybe 90 miles isn't ideal. Is there anyplace in the 100-200 mile range that has equal/better services?
But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Being a control city implies that there are amenities and the mileage signs will indicate the distance.

Being a largely unknown town isn't ideal but there aren't any known towns within a couple hours drive.

Signing only a city that's 600 miles away doesn't work, so I'd like to know what your alternative is.
Significant presence on a mileage sign of a cross-country Interstate indicates that there are amenities there by itself. I agree that Limon should be on mileage signs past Aurora - next tiny town, then Limon, then KC. But large overhead guide signs are supposed to point traffic in the correct direction, not indicate to them where the next exit of any substance is. Limon does not point many people in the correct direction because people who aren't from there or don't drive the route often don't know where it is.

QuoteSigning only a city that's 600 miles away doesn't work

Sure it does. It's a known landmark that points you in the direction you want to go. So what if you stop in another town first.

Scott5114

I understand, but do not agree with, the rationale for skipping Hays and Limon. I still don't get the rationale for skipping Topeka and Salina.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Flint1979


JayhawkCO

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

Flint1979

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?
Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?
Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I mean, I understand where the road goes. I just think you overestimate the desire of rural Ohioans to know how far it is to Atlanta when the huge majority of them aren't going that far. The Tampa example is even dumber.

Flint1979

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:50:10 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?
Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I mean, I understand where the road goes. I just think you overestimate the desire of rural Ohioans to know how far it is to Atlanta when the huge majority of them aren't going that far. The Tampa example is even dumber.
It's not there for rural Ohioans it's there for long distance traffic which I-75 gets a ton of. I would have to say that there is enough traffic going through there on I-75 that is heading to Atlanta and Tampa to justify knowing how far it is to each place. Atlanta is the halfway point between Cincinnati and Tampa and Cincinnati is in Ohio just at the southwestern corner of the state. But by that point on I-75 you are going to have all of the Michigan traffic that is heading south since the traffic has already remerged from US-23, plus you are going to have the Ohio Turnpike traffic and Toledo is a the fourth largest city in Ohio so you will generate traffic from there too. ODOT was also just being creative with the signs.

kalvado

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?
THere is a spot on I-90 in Albany NY where two directions are signed as Buffalo and Boston. None of those is particularly close, there are significant cities before those points (Springfield, Rochester, Syracuse). A few people travel to either B's  from that spot.
But I assume most people can visualize a map and understand if they want to go right towards Buffalo or left towards Boston. East and west should, in principle, do same thing - but for me those distant cities are even better than E and W.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: kalvado on July 27, 2022, 05:04:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?
THere is a spot on I-90 in Albany NY where two directions are signed as Buffalo and Boston. None of those is particularly close, there are significant cities before those points (Springfield, Rochester, Syracuse). A few people travel to either B's  from that spot.
But I assume most people can visualize a map and understand if they want to go right towards Buffalo or left towards Boston. East and west should, in principle, do same thing - but for me those distant cities are even better than E and W.

So should control cities just be the termini of the route then? I-80 is just San Francisco westbound and NYC eastbound? I mean, if I go up to Cheyenne and need to get onto I-80, I could go the New York way or the San Francisco way. If I'm unfamiliar with Wyoming and need to get to Laramie or Rock Springs, no worries; they're the San Francisco way.

Scott5114

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:50:10 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?
Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I mean, I understand where the road goes. I just think you overestimate the desire of rural Ohioans to know how far it is to Atlanta when the huge majority of them aren't going that far. The Tampa example is even dumber.

An article in the Toledo Blade indicates that the engineer that designed those signs wasn't doing it out of a belief that the information would necessarily be relevant to drivers:

Quote
Credit the geography lesson to Chris Waterfield, district traffic engineer at the Ohio Department of Transportation's district office in Bowling Green, who decided to mix things up a bit – while complying with federal sign guidelines – when he designed new signs five years ago to be erected after I-75's recent widening south of Perrysburg.

"This is my attempt at maybe trying to wake you up a little bit, and see something different. I don't think you need to see the same thing every five miles. I want to make it interesting,"  Mr. Waterfield said.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Flint1979


MATraveler128

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 05:32:54 PM
I don't know how common this is in other state's but Michigan will include a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1897494,-83.7691394,3a,15y,197.63h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQhDacvgmKnN0LGGhJ9Z3pQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 in addition to a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1919676,-83.7691536,3a,24.7y,186.05h,109.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2A8g7hPRHlw-sZ-0lZrizw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Massachusetts does it that way. It's actually very common to see town names on auxiliary signs here. It's also used on freeway to freeway interchanges.
Formerly BlueOutback7

Lowest untraveled number: 96

Flint1979

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on July 27, 2022, 05:35:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 05:32:54 PM
I don't know how common this is in other state's but Michigan will include a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1897494,-83.7691394,3a,15y,197.63h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQhDacvgmKnN0LGGhJ9Z3pQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 in addition to a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1919676,-83.7691536,3a,24.7y,186.05h,109.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2A8g7hPRHlw-sZ-0lZrizw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Massachusetts does it that way. It's actually very common to see town names on auxiliary signs here. It's also used on freeway to freeway interchanges.
It's also good that they let you know which way to turn for all three cities at the exit. I think having the third city there in this case Chesaning which is a bit further off the highway but still a good control city is a
good idea. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.179285,-83.7707359,3a,15y,231.78h,94.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1syIf7jU6vokHriqjhEhicMw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DyIf7jU6vokHriqjhEhicMw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D167.40688%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

kalvado

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 27, 2022, 05:04:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?
THere is a spot on I-90 in Albany NY where two directions are signed as Buffalo and Boston. None of those is particularly close, there are significant cities before those points (Springfield, Rochester, Syracuse). A few people travel to either B's  from that spot.
But I assume most people can visualize a map and understand if they want to go right towards Buffalo or left towards Boston. East and west should, in principle, do same thing - but for me those distant cities are even better than E and W.

So should control cities just be the termini of the route then? I-80 is just San Francisco westbound and NYC eastbound? I mean, if I go up to Cheyenne and need to get onto I-80, I could go the New York way or the San Francisco way. If I'm unfamiliar with Wyoming and need to get to Laramie or Rock Springs, no worries; they're the San Francisco way.
It is a possible way of thinking IMHO. Although 8n case of I-90 I don't think of Seattle as a relevant city as it is too far away. Basically we are talking about finding a balance between using Boston & Seattle vs using Nothingtown & Middle of Nowhere city as control points
On the other hand, IMHO "services" argument isnt a good one as well as there are services signs designed for that.

And it may be about someone more or less local (or frequent in the area) who saw Nothingtown sign many times and has it on a mental map vs a visitor who remembers major cities only. I feel that second approach is more universal

thspfc

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?
Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Dayton, (no Cincinnati), Lexington, (no Atlanta), Tampa, (no Miami)?

Lol

J N Winkler

Generally speaking, Interstate control cities should not be unduly parochial.  The most frequently criticized sequences--Sharon, Clarion, Du Bois, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Williamsport, Bloomsburg, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap (I-80 in Pennsylvania) and Portland, The Dalles, Hermiston, Pendleton, La Grande, Baker, Ontario (I-84 in Oregon)--not only take up grossly disproportionate fractions of the full lists for their respective routes, but also give the impression the state DOT is desperately afraid to sign anything out of state.  (Portland is terminus of route, while the other three bookend control cities--Sharon, Delaware Water Gap, and Ontario--touch state borders.)

Unfortunately, this consideration doesn't rule Limon out.  Grand Junction, Denver, and Limon doesn't overburden the list for Colorado, and is actually fewer cities than Kansas for a similar mileage, if Kansas City is counted as being in the latter state.

And while it is tangential to this discussion, I think it would be worth looking at the extent to which states that have substantial mileage in non-Interstate rural freeways have sought to establish wider separation between control cities.  Kansas, for example, has not.  US 54 has substantial freeway mileage west of Wichita, but is still governed by criteria that favor county seats, so Kingman and Pratt continue to appear on ramp signs.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Scott5114

I had always wondered what the deal was with the control cities used at KTA service plazas. It finally clicked when you mentioned the county seat thing, and then a couple days later I found myself at Matfield Greene, looking at the return sign with a control city of El Dorado.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Flint1979

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 06:37:35 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?
Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Dayton, (no Cincinnati), Lexington, (no Atlanta), Tampa, (no Miami)?

Lol
Just no Miami, those signs are about 5 miles from each other.

kirbykart

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 05:32:54 PM
I don't know how common this is in other state's but Michigan will include a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1897494,-83.7691394,3a,15y,197.63h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQhDacvgmKnN0LGGhJ9Z3pQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 in addition to a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1919676,-83.7691536,3a,24.7y,186.05h,109.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2A8g7hPRHlw-sZ-0lZrizw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
That is used a lot on the NY Thruway. At some exits there will be multiple (3, maybe even 4).

thspfc


DenverBrian

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 09:03:01 AM
Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 04:16:33 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 26, 2022, 03:09:58 PM
Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I can say it with a straight face because I can get to Limon before I need gas/food/hotel and I can't get to KC.
Why does that matter? How does putting Limon on a sign help you find gas/food/hotels as a traveler on I-70 in Denver?

Are there not like 30 other places to stop for gas/food/hotel between Denver and KC?

Limon is also only 90 miles away from Denver. How does "Limon" tell you that gas/food/hotels are 90 miles away (which, they aren't; by your logic Aurora should be signed along I-70 EB in Denver. Or even every exit that has those things).

If you want to say that KC is too far, that's at least a valid point. I disagree because I think more than one factor should be considered in posting control cities. But saying that Limon should be a control city because it has gas, food, and hotels is nonsense because KC has all of those things 50 times over.

Yes, KC is too far. Maybe 90 miles isn't ideal. Is there anyplace in the 100-200 mile range that has equal/better services?
But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?
Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.

thspfc

Quote from: DenverBrian on July 28, 2022, 02:27:49 PM
Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM
But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?
Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.
Denver is a 10-road junction - I-70, I-25, I-76, US-6, US-40, US-36, US-285, US-85, US-287, and CO-58. It's a decision point westbound for going to Boulder, Golden, Fort Collins, Lakewood, Los Angeles, Estes Park, Steamboat Springs, Longmont, Loveland, others. It's a decision point eastbound for going to Kansas City, Chicago, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Aurora, others. I think it's quite a bit more rational than Limon to have it as a control city.

Also you didn't answer my question at all.

CoreySamson

I think one of the biggest issues with this debate is that people are approaching this from different mindsets. There's the "western US"  mindset, which treats Limon as a more of a waypoint that functions as the "Hub City of Eastern Colorado"  and a vital place to service ailing automobiles, grab a bite to eat, or stay the night if necessary. Since there's nothing else around, this mindset assumes that Limon is therefore important, and would sign it.

On the other hand, a more "eastern US"  mindset would find Limon to be an irrelevant backward town similar to all the other ones along the interstate highway system, which is not their fault for having that presupposition. East of US 81, pretty much every little small town has the capacity to do the things Limon does. If you plopped Limon down in the middle of I-40 in eastern North Carolina, nobody would care about it at all, and it would be indistinguishable to the general populace from other small towns.

So I think your opinion on Limon depends on your perspective. I personally think it should be signed in tandem with Denver (WB) and Salina (EB). It should not be skipped.
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Quote from: CoreySamson on July 28, 2022, 03:37:40 PMI think one of the biggest issues with this debate is that people are approaching this from different mindsets. There's the "western US"  mindset, which treats Limon as a more of a waypoint that functions as the "Hub City of Eastern Colorado"  and a vital place to service ailing automobiles, grab a bite to eat, or stay the night if necessary. Since there's nothing else around, this mindset assumes that Limon is therefore important, and would sign it.

On the other hand, a more "eastern US"  mindset would find Limon to be an irrelevant backward town similar to all the other ones along the interstate highway system, which is not their fault for having that presupposition. East of US 81, pretty much every little small town has the capacity to do the things Limon does. If you plopped Limon down in the middle of I-40 in eastern North Carolina, nobody would care about it at all, and it would be indistinguishable to the general populace from other small towns.

It is not that simple.  Limon has a population of less than 2,000.  There are plenty of towns west of US 81 that not only are larger but also have motels, restaurants, and repair shops.  In addition, many of them are county seats, which Limon is not (the Lincoln County seat is Hugo).  Examples of such towns just in the I-70 corridor that are not control cities include Burlington (3172 people, seat of Kit Carson County), Goodland (4465 people, seat of Sherman County), Colby (5570 people, seat of Thomas County, point where US 24 splits off for north-central Kansas), Oakley (2046 people, seat of Logan County, point where US 40 splits off for Sharon Springs and Antelope Wells), and Russell (4401 people, seat of Russell County).

Really, the only reason to have Limon on the Interstate control city list is as the point where US 24 splits off for a metro area of almost 800,000 people.

Quote from: CoreySamson on July 28, 2022, 03:37:40 PMSo I think your opinion on Limon depends on your perspective. I personally think it should be signed in tandem with Denver (WB) and Salina (EB). It should not be skipped.

In Kansas it is.  As for my perspective, I live right on top of US 81, and have travelled extensively enough on both sides that I am not bringing an "eastern US" outlook to this discussion.
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