Arglog

[Tom958]

When I was in the ninth grade, our high school had a really old and reactionary principal. His oppression led to a nonviolent riot, with virtually all of the junior and senior classes running down the halls chanting, "WE WANT OUR RIGHTS!!!" It was pretty epic.

At the end of the year, Mr. Reactionary retired and was replaced by a really excellent and very progressive principal. Among the reforms he pursued were asking the students for ideas for a series of new, more relevant elective classes. I actually came up with three: a French culture class, taught by the French teacher; a class on the isms: capitalism, communism, socialism, and fascism (that one was the only A+ I earned in high school); and the best one, which we called Arglog.

Arglog was short for Argumentation and Logic. My idea was that it'd teach us about how to craft good arguments and discard bad ones through learning about logic and logical fallacies, how to identify credible information and reject propaganda, that sort of thing. At the time, I was unaware that there was such a thing as intramural debate, but the principal certainly wasn't. He had the debate coach craft the program and teach the class, which was an excellent idea for a variety of obvious reasons. So, in addition to learning concepts, we learned how to collect and compile information on notecards for quick and ready reference. As in intramural debate, the class debated a single proposition (ours was chosen by the class and which was not the one being debated by the intermural program). The class was split into two-student teams; crucially, each team was required to be ready to either defend or attack the proposition, not being told which side they'd be taking until shortly before the in-class debates began. Facts and logic talked, bullshit embarrassed itself in front of the class.

I can't say that the class was a rollicking success because it was viewed, incorrectly, as an easy A by kids who weren't really the target audience. Still, almost every time I read an internet discussion rife with strawman arguments, begged questions, dubiously-sourced assertions and such, I find myself wishing that every high schooler had been instructed in argumentation and logic in something like the way I and my schoolmates were.

[triplemultiplex]

Wow, that "Arlog" is a fantastic course idea for high school. And the fact that you pitched it as a sophomore is all the more impressive. In this age of disinformation and ideological propaganda, it is desperately needed.  It might even be the only way to ultimate get out of this hyper-partisan bullcrap that's tearing the world apart.

Teaching people how to think instead of what to think needs to become as fundamental to education as math and languages and science and all that 'classic' school stuff.  Because it's clear to me that society is in desperate need of help in this area.

[Scott5114]

Teaching people how to think instead of what to think needs to become as fundamental to education as math and languages and science and all that 'classic' school stuff.  Because it's clear to me that society is in desperate need of help in this area.

Of course, the current system of power in this country benefits from the fact that Americans are taught just enough that they can work jobs to help enrich the upper class, but not enough that they can threaten to become part of (or overthrow!) the upper class.

[Max Rockatansky]

Teaching people how to think instead of what to think needs to become as fundamental to education as math and languages and science and all that 'classic' school stuff.  Because it's clear to me that society is in desperate need of help in this area.

Of course, the current system of power in this country benefits from the fact that Americans are taught just enough that they can work jobs to help enrich the upper class, but not enough that they can threaten to become part of (or overthrow!) the upper class.

The caveat is how many people who would be afforded such opportunities would be willing learn or be ambitious enough to take advantage of it?  I don't know, I tend to think most people really over value what the average person gets out of a serious education. 

[Scott5114]

Teaching people how to think instead of what to think needs to become as fundamental to education as math and languages and science and all that 'classic' school stuff.  Because it's clear to me that society is in desperate need of help in this area.

Of course, the current system of power in this country benefits from the fact that Americans are taught just enough that they can work jobs to help enrich the upper class, but not enough that they can threaten to become part of (or overthrow!) the upper class.

The caveat is how many people who would be afforded such opportunities would be willing learn or be ambitious enough to take advantage of it?  I don't know, I tend to think most people really over value what the average person gets out of a serious education. 

Well, yes...but see how many bills get floated in state legislatures trying to ban the sorts of critical thinking classes Tom proposed. They wouldn't go through the trouble to do that unless they were afraid those classes threatened them in some way. You never see anyone making a political statement trying to ban advanced math classes, even though the vast majority of people barely use algebra, let alone trig or calculus, in their daily lives.

[abefroman329]

Teaching people how to think instead of what to think needs to become as fundamental to education as math and languages and science and all that 'classic' school stuff.  Because it's clear to me that society is in desperate need of help in this area.

Of course, the current system of power in this country benefits from the fact that Americans are taught just enough that they can work jobs to help enrich the upper class, but not enough that they can threaten to become part of (or overthrow!) the upper class.

The caveat is how many people who would be afforded such opportunities would be willing learn or be ambitious enough to take advantage of it?  I don't know, I tend to think most people really over value what the average person gets out of a serious education. 

Well, yes...but see how many bills get floated in state legislatures trying to ban the sorts of critical thinking classes Tom proposed. They wouldn't go through the trouble to do that unless they were afraid those classes threatened them in some way. You never see anyone making a political statement trying to ban advanced math classes, even though the vast majority of people barely use algebra, let alone trig or calculus, in their daily lives.

Only because you can't convince people, with zero evidence, that advanced math classes will make white students feel badly about themselves.

Unless...

[CtrlAltDel]

Only because you can't convince people, with zero evidence, that advanced math classes will make white students feel badly about themselves.

I don't know. Math makes almost everybody feel bad about themselves.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

Math taught me a valuable lesson, being an engineer wasn't for me.

Teaching people how to think instead of what to think needs to become as fundamental to education as math and languages and science and all that 'classic' school stuff.  Because it's clear to me that society is in desperate need of help in this area.

Of course, the current system of power in this country benefits from the fact that Americans are taught just enough that they can work jobs to help enrich the upper class, but not enough that they can threaten to become part of (or overthrow!) the upper class.

The caveat is how many people who would be afforded such opportunities would be willing learn or be ambitious enough to take advantage of it?  I don't know, I tend to think most people really over value what the average person gets out of a serious education. 

Well, yes...but see how many bills get floated in state legislatures trying to ban the sorts of critical thinking classes Tom proposed. They wouldn't go through the trouble to do that unless they were afraid those classes threatened them in some way. You never see anyone making a political statement trying to ban advanced math classes, even though the vast majority of people barely use algebra, let alone trig or calculus, in their daily lives.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for challenging learning and critical thinking topics.  My observation generally has been throughout most of my life is that only small set of people will actively seek out challenging learning/critical thinking.  Most people aren't going to want to be involved with anything that challenges the mind too much.  I feel this is reflected in generalized learning curriculum being so in vogue with parental types and political figures.  One generally doesn't encounter optional critical thinking courses at least to the college level.  To some extent I can understand why many want to keep pre-college learning more baseline given those who are interested in more tend to seek it out of their own volition anyways. 

[SectorZ]

The closest thing I had to this in high school, in my senior year, was "Social and Political Action", which the name made sound a lot more obnoxious than it actually was. Learned a ton in that class and I still have immense respect for that teacher even a quarter century later.

I am all for classes like this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for challenging learning and critical thinking topics.  My observation generally has been throughout most of my life is that only small set of people will actively seek out challenging learning/critical thinking.  Most people aren't going to want to be involved with anything that challenges the mind too much.  I feel this is reflected in generalized learning curriculum being so in vogue with parental types and political figures.  One generally doesn't encounter optional critical thinking courses at least to the college level.  To some extent I can understand why many want to keep pre-college learning more baseline given those who are interested in more tend to seek it out of their own volition anyways.

And, this is probably the likeliest problem here, lack of interest. It's just not a priority for many 16 year olds.

[Tom958]

Thanks, everyone, for the positive responses. This post was more of a hit than I expected, and that makes me happy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for challenging learning and critical thinking topics.  My observation generally has been throughout most of my life is that only small set of people will actively seek out challenging learning/critical thinking.  Most people aren't going to want to be involved with anything that challenges the mind too much.  I feel this is reflected in generalized learning curriculum being so in vogue with parental types and political figures.  One generally doesn't encounter optional critical thinking courses at least to the college level.  To some extent I can understand why many want to keep pre-college learning more baseline given those who are interested in more tend to seek it out of their own volition anyways.

I didn't realize it as a high schooler, but I've learned in the working world that argumentation and logic are useful for general problem-solving far more than for actually arguing. People often confuse themselves by conflating less- or non-relevant factors into their assessment of a problem, which impairs their search for solutions. It's hard for many people to focus on the essentials, especially if annoying people are involved. I find myself saying, "...but that's a separate issue" a lot. My coworkers almost never say that. Is it because of Arglog? Partly yes.

OTOH, part of what made the class feasible was the fact that the school was on a quarter system. It'd be easier to sell a quarter-long course on this than a semester-long one.

[noelbotevera]

My school kinda has this, in the form of the IB program. The great part about it is that it's run by the Brits (created in 1968 by Oxford University) and it takes a lot of effort to teach the class. That means teachers are good, and very willing to let the kids think for themselves often - which is the point of the program.

Issue? Consistently small class sizes, so small that my school board threatened to pull funding because of this. The teachers are lobbying to keep it, so yet another example of why dinosaurs (or parents) dictating learning is a bad idea.

Granted, when you have such a small class full of like-minded people who want to be there, is there really any room for debate?

[ozarkman417]

My school kinda has this, in the form of the IB program. The great part about it is that it's run by the Brits (created in 1968 by Oxford University) and it takes a lot of effort to teach the class. That means teachers are good, and very willing to let the kids think for themselves often - which is the point of the program.

Issue? Consistently small class sizes, so small that my school board threatened to pull funding because of this. The teachers are lobbying to keep it, so yet another example of why dinosaurs (or parents) dictating learning is a bad idea.

Granted, when you have such a small class full of like-minded people who want to be there, is there really any room for debate?

My two favorite teachers (I'm a high school senior) both teach the two IB subjects I am currently enrolled in. As such, they happen to be the most enjoyable classes of my day, because I played my cards right and still enrolled myself in IB courses, but not the overly difficult ones. As IB students appear to be very like minded compared to the other kids at my school, most of my friends are from those classes. Some of the textbooks I use for the classes are written, at least partially, by those at Oxford. Small class sizes are not an issue when it comes to IB here, because the IB program is what has attracted hundreds of out-of-district students to my school (including me).

[NWI_Irish96]

Only because you can't convince people, with zero evidence, that advanced math classes will make white students feel badly about themselves.

I don't know. Math makes almost everybody feel bad about themselves.

For the most part, we're teaching the wrong math in high school. I got a BS and an MS in math so I needed all the geometry, trigonometry and calculus, but most kids don't.

Kids who aren't headed for a 4-year university with a major in science or engineering really ought to be taking probability/statistics and some finite math after basic algebra.

And yes, the Arglog class if a fantastic idea.

[noelbotevera]

Only because you can't convince people, with zero evidence, that advanced math classes will make white students feel badly about themselves.

I don't know. Math makes almost everybody feel bad about themselves.

For the most part, we're teaching the wrong math in high school. I got a BS and an MS in math so I needed all the geometry, trigonometry and calculus, but most kids don't.

Kids who aren't headed for a 4-year university with a major in science or engineering really ought to be taking probability/statistics and some finite math after basic algebra.

And yes, the Arglog class if a fantastic idea.

Is it sad that for all of my years of taking algebra plus basic college calculus that I couldn't tell you the best way to graph something? I can tell you five different ways to approximate a function given a derivative and a point, but the second you show me a pie chart and a bunch of data I'm outta here.

For all the classes offered in my high school, I really could not tell you what they want us kids to even get from the diploma. There's not enough business classes to justify going into business (for example, no class that teaches you about making a sale and marketing), far too many shop classes where you faff about with saws and don't make anything practical, NJROTC tucked to the side of the scheduling sheet and mostly used as an excuse to skip out on a gym credit, no political science or civics classes at all so screw them I guess, no art classes where you have to make a portfolio...

[NWI_Irish96]

Only because you can't convince people, with zero evidence, that advanced math classes will make white students feel badly about themselves.

I don't know. Math makes almost everybody feel bad about themselves.

For the most part, we're teaching the wrong math in high school. I got a BS and an MS in math so I needed all the geometry, trigonometry and calculus, but most kids don't.

Kids who aren't headed for a 4-year university with a major in science or engineering really ought to be taking probability/statistics and some finite math after basic algebra.

And yes, the Arglog class if a fantastic idea.

Is it sad that for all of my years of taking algebra plus basic college calculus that I couldn't tell you the best way to graph something? I can tell you five different ways to approximate a function given a derivative and a point, but the second you show me a pie chart and a bunch of data I'm outta here.

For all the classes offered in my high school, I really could not tell you what they want us kids to even get from the diploma. There's not enough business classes to justify going into business (for example, no class that teaches you about making a sale and marketing), far too many shop classes where you faff about with saws and don't make anything practical, NJROTC tucked to the side of the scheduling sheet and mostly used as an excuse to skip out on a gym credit, no political science or civics classes at all so screw them I guess, no art classes where you have to make a portfolio...

In Indiana all HS seniors take an American government class. Not really political science but that's probably a bit too specialized for HS.

[ozarkman417]

Only because you can't convince people, with zero evidence, that advanced math classes will make white students feel badly about themselves.

I don't know. Math makes almost everybody feel bad about themselves.

For the most part, we're teaching the wrong math in high school. I got a BS and an MS in math so I needed all the geometry, trigonometry and calculus, but most kids don't.

Kids who aren't headed for a 4-year university with a major in science or engineering really ought to be taking probability/statistics and some finite math after basic algebra.

And yes, the Arglog class if a fantastic idea.

Is it sad that for all of my years of taking algebra plus basic college calculus that I couldn't tell you the best way to graph something? I can tell you five different ways to approximate a function given a derivative and a point, but the second you show me a pie chart and a bunch of data I'm outta here.

For all the classes offered in my high school, I really could not tell you what they want us kids to even get from the diploma. There's not enough business classes to justify going into business (for example, no class that teaches you about making a sale and marketing), far too many shop classes where you faff about with saws and don't make anything practical, NJROTC tucked to the side of the scheduling sheet and mostly used as an excuse to skip out on a gym credit, no political science or civics classes at all so screw them I guess, no art classes where you have to make a portfolio...

In Indiana all HS seniors take an American government class. Not really political science but that's probably a bit too specialized for HS.

My high school has a political science class of sorts- "IB Global Politics". Granted, it is an IB course and as such isn't so much a traditional high school course.

[Scott5114]

Meanwhile, I had to look up what IB even is. (We had AP. Maybe that's the same thing?)

[Rothman]

Meanwhile, I had to look up what IB even is. (We had AP. Maybe that's the same thing?)

AP and IB are two different certifications.

I do wonder if it all boils down to classism in the end.

[abefroman329]

Meanwhile, I had to look up what IB even is. (We had AP. Maybe that's the same thing?)

AP and IB are two different certifications.

I do wonder if it all boils down to classism in the end.

An IB curriculum can be taught as early as pre-school, whereas AP doesn't start until high school.

(If I didn't have a preschooler, I wouldn't know what on earth IB is)

[Scott5114]

Meanwhile, I had to look up what IB even is. (We had AP. Maybe that's the same thing?)

AP and IB are two different certifications.

I do wonder if it all boils down to classism in the end.

Well, I meant more "serves the same purpose as AP", namely, providing a pathway to convert a high school class to college credit. Sort of how the SAT and the ACT both serve the same purpose, but one or the other is preferred in a certain region (I took the ACT twice, but never took the SAT).

Really, to some extent, a college degree is in many cases a class indicator more than intelligence, aptitude, or even education.