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Author Topic: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward  (Read 9331 times)

austrini

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2022, 09:43:44 AM »

That whole thing should be either 4-lane divided or 5 lane undivided with the 5th lane being a center turn lane. Existing traffic levels are pretty heavy for a mere 2-lane highway. Plus US-377 is almost the only Red River crossing between I-35 and US-75. The SH-91 crossing over Denison Dam is almost a stone's throw from US-75.

The current plan has it as 4 lanes by 2028 until end of plan in 2045 with a request to AASHTO to realign the US 377 designation along the interstate, like US 77 elsewhere, and giving up roadway maintenance to to the cities. It's behind, on one hand because budget and on the other because Argyle won't annex the very tiny part of it that's not in a city already. I should say this is the part of US 377 between Denton and Roanoke. The part north of Denton isn't 4 lanes until 2037(? I think).

The way it goes is like this. City approves thousands of homes and strip malls for yummy property tax revenue, Aubrey's got like 4,000 houses going in. If you don't believe me just grab sentinel hub imagery. State is like, wtf Aubrey, are you going to pay us to widen this regionally important road that suddenly is over capacity? City is like lol no. Bye. State says, okay, 2037 then, BYE. (source: am regional transportation planner, formerly Collin County GIS/Planning)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 10:08:45 AM by austrini »
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Bobby5280

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2022, 11:06:21 AM »

Promotion of big residential subdivisions (for lots of property tax revenue and to bolster a more "desirable" voting demographic) while doing little to nothing to improve capacity of arterial streets and highways is a familiar tune being played out in other parts of the nation.

It sounds exactly like the crap going on in Colorado Springs. Big developments with dozens of high priced homes get plopped onto the landscape. These subdivisions will have their own nice looking, landscaped streets -some of which are even 4-lane divided. All that empties out onto main streets or highways that haven't had real substantial capacity improvements in decades. The few improvements they're actually making, such as piece-meal upgrades of Powers Blvd intersections, aren't delivering much in the way of improved traffic movement. That's because their pace of improvement is so damn slow it can't catch up to the sheer amount of traffic growth.

US-24 going NE out of the 'Springs is one example. The town of Falcon has grown a lot in the past 20 years. There is hardly any rural gap left between Falcon and the East edge of Colorado Springs. The remaining empty spaces there and by the Black Forest are going to fill in with development. The situation on US-24 is just going to get even more dangerous. CDOT isn't going to do a damn thing about it though.
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Road Hog

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2022, 07:57:11 PM »

Blink and you'll miss it.

The new section north of FM 428 is already striped and has signage installed. I expect it to be open all the way up to FM 121 and into Grayson County by the first of October.

This is only one of the frontage roads, mind you, but a commuting gamechanger when combined with the 380 overpass.
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MaxConcrete

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2023, 09:12:39 PM »

Channel 8 in North Texas posted this article about the possibility that the Dallas North Tollway will ever become a freeway.
https://www.wfaa.com/article/traffic/driving-dfw/dallas-north-tollway-freeway-toll-increase-over-time-why/287-52283bba-dce8-4911-a333-53e973942e71?ref=exit-recirc

The short answer: Not sooner than 2049 and probably never.

This is what happens when a project is subsumed into a system, and all toll roads in the system can remain tolled until all bonds are retired. NTTA took on massive debt for its "concession fee" to build the Sam Rayburn Tollway, which makes retirement of its bonds impossible anytime soon.

Also, the Dallas North Tollway from downtown to Bush Turnpike was built to very low standards, so ongoing work is needed to fix deficiencies. At some point in the future the entire section will need full pavement replacement. Only a short section near I-35E has already received full pavement replacement.

NTTA carries far more debt than HCTRA in Houston. HCTRA is in a better position to remove tolls, but I'm not very hopeful for that happening in my lifetime because governments just won't give up the money.

ZLoth

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2023, 07:51:16 AM »

Also, the Dallas North Tollway from downtown to Bush Turnpike was built to very low standards, so ongoing work is needed to fix deficiencies. At some point in the future the entire section will need full pavement replacement. Only a short section near I-35E has already received full pavement replacement.

I have to agree with you as it doesn't fit Interstate standards. There are hardly any shoulders between the George Bush and I-635, and just gets worse south of I-635, making it one of my least favorite (and thankfully, rarely driven) road segments in Dallas. Per Wikipedia:

Quote
The initial segment of the tollway ran from Interstate 35E to Royal Lane along an old St. Louis Southwestern Railway corridor. The right-of-way is generally 100 feet (30 m) along this segment, one of the narrowest controlled-access roads in Texas. The segment was completed in June 1968 and toll was originally 20 cents. The tollway was later extended to Briargrove Lane in 1987, to Headquarters Drive in 1994, to S.H. 121 and Gaylord Parkway in 2004, and to US 380 in 2007. The extensions generally parallel S.H. 289, also known as Preston Road. The "DNT Extension Phase 3," which runs from State Highway 121 to U.S. Highway 380, opened in mid-2007.



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Bobby5280

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2023, 02:42:02 PM »

I don't think there is any practical way for the Dallas North Tollway between I-35E and I-635 to be brought up to Interstate standards and/or add any additional lanes. There just isn't any room. The existing 6-lane roadway is crammed in there about as tight as it can get.

The only way that toll road segment could be expanded to have proper inboard and outboard shoulders as well as any additional lanes is by putting the whole thing into a pair of deep bore tunnels. Of course that probably cost tens of billions of dollars. And for what gain? The DNT is pretty important going North of LBJ Freeway thru Addison and Frisco. But going South of LBJ Freeway I think I-35E and North Central Expressway do far more to move traffic in/out of downtown.
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Road Hog

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2023, 07:19:16 PM »

Look on either side of the DNT between downtown and LBJ and you will see the backyards of some very wealthy and influential people. Good luck getting eminent domain on those properties. It'll be tied up in court for decades.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2023, 07:33:05 PM »

I don't think there is any practical way for the Dallas North Tollway between I-35E and I-635 to be brought up to Interstate standards and/or add any additional lanes. There just isn't any room. The existing 6-lane roadway is crammed in there about as tight as it can get.

The only way that toll road segment could be expanded to have proper inboard and outboard shoulders as well as any additional lanes is by putting the whole thing into a pair of deep bore tunnels. Of course that probably cost tens of billions of dollars. And for what gain? The DNT is pretty important going North of LBJ Freeway thru Addison and Frisco. But going South of LBJ Freeway I think I-35E and North Central Expressway do far more to move traffic in/out of downtown.
They could remove the two center lanes and dig out a lower level that could have 3-4 lanes each way and keep the top two lanes each way for local traffic. Could be an idea local residents could get behind as it might lessen road noise. Expensive requirements for exhaust mitigation wouldn’t be needed as it would be open air kind of how some parts of the LBJ express lanes are. It’d still be an incredible expensive endeavor and I’d rather them implement variable tolling based on congestion levels and add a lower level to the central expressway before they would consider that here.

While we’re on the topic of fairy tales throw in a five stack at the LBJ for good measure.

Seriously though I doubt much is done. At the most maybe they would consider variable tolls during rush hour to keep traffic moving but that could result in an increase of local traffic.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2023, 11:32:23 PM by Plutonic Panda »
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Bobby5280

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2023, 11:21:04 PM »

I can't even remember for sure when the last time it was that I drove on that segment of the DNT. It probably has to be around 10 years. I've driven on other super highways going in/out of downtown Dallas a lot more than that.
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ZLoth

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2023, 12:50:31 PM »

Look on either side of the DNT between downtown and LBJ and you will see the backyards of some very wealthy and influential people. Good luck getting eminent domain on those properties. It'll be tied up in court for decades.

The University Park/Highland Park area, almost without exception, have homes that are worth at least $1 million. Having said that, these homes are nicely decorated during the holidays, and you can take a horse carriage ride during the holidays to see the lights.

I can't even remember for sure when the last time it was that I drove on that segment of the DNT. It probably has to be around 10 years. I've driven on other super highways going in/out of downtown Dallas a lot more than that.

It's usually either to get to Dallas Love Field or US-75 was unbelievably clogged up that DNT was the recommended alternative to get downtown.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening from SH 121 to US 380
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2023, 07:08:07 PM »

The DNT going South of LBJ Freeway is one of my least favorite roads to take in the DFW area -well, at least as long as we're talking about limited access highways. There are many surface streets in the DFW area I really dislike. Getting stuck in traffic on Beltline Road in the Addison area could be a Tenth Circle of Hell.
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MaxConcrete

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2023, 01:34:46 PM »

The Dallas Morning News reported today that the NTTA is slated to approve the start of work in spring 2024 to extend the tollway main lanes 13.7 miles north of US 380.

The frontage roads are already in place for phase 4a, which is six miles from US 380 to FM 428. The right-of-way is 400 feet wide. Finally (north of US 380), the NTTA acquired a decent right-of-way width for the tollway. The intersection with the Collin County Outer Loop is near the north end of this section. I don't know about the frontage road status north of FM 428.

Quote
Tollway expansion north could start in the spring, pending NTTA vote
The 13.7 mile roadway will have six lanes, improving connectivity for a growing area of the state.


The Dallas North Tollway project to extend the road north from U.S. 380 to the Grayson County line might start in the spring, if the North Texas Tollway Authority gives a nod of approval during its Dec. 20 board meeting.

Michael Rey, media relations manager for NTTA, said if approved, work for the Phase 4 Corridor Project will begin in the spring of 2024.

According to records filed with the state, the NTTA funded roadway project is expected to cost $183 million.

Rey said the 13.7 miles of roadway will include construction of a six-lane urban tollway with three lanes in each direction.

Phase 4A, about 6 miles, will begin at U.S. 380 to Farm-to-Market 428; Phase 4B, about 7.7 miles, will go from FM 428 to the Grayson County line.

Construction began on the DNT Extension into Prosper and Celina in Feb. 2020 and opened to traffic in March.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 01:39:35 PM by MaxConcrete »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2023, 02:57:34 PM »

I just wish it’d be extended to the southern OKC metro. I wouldn’t mind driving a toll road to Dallas if that meant it was kept up, had 2-3 lanes each way, and didn’t have a lane closure every 40-50 miles.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2023, 07:50:55 PM »

Quote from: MaxConcrete
The Dallas Morning News reported today that the NTTA is slated to approve the start of work in spring 2024 to extend the tollway main lanes 13.7 miles north of US 380.

Yep. It's 13.7 miles from the DNT interchange with US-380 up to CR-60/County Line Road. The ROW is already preserved, thanks to future frontage roads built much of the way.

Dallas Parkway continues as a single 2-lane "place holder" road going from the Collin/Grayson County Line 4.5 miles farther North up to an intersection with FM-121.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda
I just wish it’d be extended to the southern OKC metro. I wouldn’t mind driving a toll road to Dallas if that meant it was kept up, had 2-3 lanes each way, and didn’t have a lane closure every 40-50 miles.

There won't be any such luck. The North end of the Grayson County Tollway is proposed to dovetail into US-75 on the North side of Denison.

A case certainly could be made for a second tollway (or freeway) to split off the DNT and go up to Whitesboro or Gainesville. But that would ultimately direct more traffic onto I-35. I wouldn't expect any new turnpike being built parallel to I-35 on up to OKC. It would just be better to widen I-35 to a minimum of 3x3 lanes between OKC and the Red River. That area around Thackerville should probably be widened to 4x4.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2023, 08:55:12 PM »

If current growth continues 3x3 won’t even be enough. That entire stretch can packed now as it is. Currently it works as 2x2 but it won’t for long.
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Road Hog

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2023, 12:05:36 AM »

Quote
Tollway expansion north could start in the spring, pending NTTA vote
The 13.7 mile roadway will have six lanes, improving connectivity for a growing area of the state.


The Dallas North Tollway project to extend the road north from U.S. 380 to the Grayson County line might start in the spring, if the North Texas Tollway Authority gives a nod of approval during its Dec. 20 board meeting.

Michael Rey, media relations manager for NTTA, said if approved, work for the Phase 4 Corridor Project will begin in the spring of 2024.

According to records filed with the state, the NTTA funded roadway project is expected to cost $183 million.

Rey said the 13.7 miles of roadway will include construction of a six-lane urban tollway with three lanes in each direction.

Phase 4A, about 6 miles, will begin at U.S. 380 to Farm-to-Market 428; Phase 4B, about 7.7 miles, will go from FM 428 to the Grayson County line.

Construction began on the DNT Extension into Prosper and Celina in Feb. 2020 and opened to traffic in March.
To correct the DMN story, the most recent extension of the DNT main lanes was only an overpass at US 380 (which was badly needed) that finally connected Prosper directly to the main lanes. It's still double frontage roads from there north to FM 428 and then a single 2-way frontage road from 428 to the Grayson County line. From the county line north, TxDOT has opened FM Spur 121.

Right now there's not much of a need for Phase 4B as development hasn't gotten there yet. Might be a chicken-or-egg situation. Regardless, that is fixing to change big-time.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2023, 12:15:48 PM »

The DFW metro is still growing pretty rapidly. I still remember the 1990's when there was hardly anything at all in Frisco. That area is all covered up with development now. It's still amazing how highway planners were caught off guard with all the growth surrounding US-380 between Denton and McKinney. Upgrading US-380 into a freeway is going to cost the state a lot more money now for the new-ish properties they'll have to buy and remove.

It's a pretty lucky thing the NTTA started extending the Dallas Parkway frontage roads North of US-380 back in the late 2000's. There are new housing subdivisions to the left and right of the ROW up to Celina now. The green, open areas will continue filling in with new housing developments. I expect the growth to spread over to Pilot Point and the edge of Lake Ray Roberts. The highway planners to need to hurry up and get one or both frontage roads of the Colin County Outer Loop built through that area. It's only partially done right now.

I think the NTTA needs to get moving ASAP on Phases 4A and 4B of the DNT. Not only that, but when is the Grayson County Tollway going to start any construction? The entire toll road isn't just for serving local residents in the immediate areas it crosses. The completed project would carry a lot of longer distance traffic as well.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2023, 04:00:11 PM by Bobby5280 »
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BJ59

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2023, 02:28:57 PM »

Hypothetically, if there was a real possibility for a western spur of the tollway, could that stretch be a continuation of the Dallas North Tollway while the other stretch towards US-75 would bear the name of Grayson County Tollway? Or would they have to name the western spur something else besides "Dallas North Tollway"?

Also, is NTTA building the Grayson County Tollway or some other toll authority?
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Chris

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2023, 04:03:07 PM »

Google Earth satellite imagery from July 2023 shows substantial development of new subdivisions even north of Celina, to the Grayson County line.

A future frontage road (Dallas Parkway) has been built as far north as Gunter in Grayson County.

Bobby5280

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2023, 04:15:30 PM »

Quote from: BJ59
Also, is NTTA building the Grayson County Tollway or some other toll authority?

I think the Grayson County Regional Mobility Authority will be in charge of and collect revenue for the Grayson County Tollway. But I would imagine the tolls would be collected under either the TxTag or NTTA tag system.

A tollway spur off toward Gainesville would end up in Cooke County. Whitesboro is in Grayson County. IMHO, the US-82 corridor is going to have to be upgraded to Interstate standards between Gainesville and Sherman. That needs to happen in the not so distant future. It's going to be a somewhat similar situation to what has already been happening with US-380 between Denton and McKinney. A DNT tollway spur toward Gainesville could actually terminate at US-82. The segment of US-82 from Sherman to Whitesboro could be upgraded to Interstate standards without much trouble since nearly all the non-freeway portion is on a 300' wide ROW. Just West of Whitesboro the ROW width drops sharply to only 180' or even less.

Quote from: Chris
A future frontage road (Dallas Parkway) has been built as far north as Gunter in Grayson County.

That 2-lane Dallas Parkway road has (recently) been extended about 4.5 miles North of CR-60/County Line Road (where the DNT Phase 4B project would end). The future frontage road ends at FM-121. The Grayson County Tollway doesn't have any new roads farther North reserving future ROW. They've had a desired alignment charted out up to Denison for over a decade.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2023, 04:34:08 PM by Bobby5280 »
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Road Hog

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2023, 03:11:06 AM »

Anything future tollway-related in Grayson County has been handled by "pass through tolling," which evidently is a way to sneak in TxDOT and other funds to construct a toll road.

Grayson County in 2030 might be flush with tollway cash, but Grayson County in 2008 certainly was not.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2023, 11:32:13 AM »

Is the Grayson County group making any effort to sell bonds to get the basics of the future toll road started? At the very least they need to be laying down a 2-lane road to reserve the future toll road's ROW. And they should be building that 2-lane place-holder road from more than one direction. Working South to North from FM-121 in linear fashion ain't gonna cut it.

Some new commercial and residential construction is occurring in both the Sherman and Denison areas. That growth near the US-75 corridor could accelerate and cover up portions of the "preferred alternative" route of the Grayson County Tollway.

They need to decide on a location in Denison where the Grayson County Tollway will merge into US-75 and start building South/West from there before all the possible ROW routings get used up by new homes.
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MaxConcrete

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2023, 09:29:57 AM »

The extension was approved, as expected

News report

Section 4a from U.S. 380 to FM Road 428 was approved to start construction in the spring. It appears that no start date has been decided for the 7.7-mile section 4b.

Quote
COLLIN COUNTY, Texas — The North Texas Tollway Authority approved a six-mile extension to the Dallas North Tollway in Collin County on Wednesday.

The expansion includes six lanes -- three in either direction -- through Prosper and Celina.

The six-mile "Phase 4A" of construction is scheduled to begin in the spring, extending the highway from U.S. 380 to FM Road 428.

The future "Phase 4B" of the tollway, which will be 7.7 miles long, will extend from FM 428 to the Grayson County line.

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2023, 12:41:36 PM »

It may not be necessary to build the main lanes of Phase 4B for a good while. I think a few things need to happen before it can be justified. First of all, both frontage roads for Phase 4B need to be fully completed to the intersection with CR-60/County Line Road. And then the Grayson County guys need to get a LOT more work done on the frontage roads for their future toll road. Dallas Parkway needs to at least have dual frontage roads reaching FM-121.

If the Grayson County Tollway's frontage roads were built up at least to US-82 that would provide a good enough connection to justify finishing out Phase 4B of the DNT. Having at least one or both of the frontage roads completed to US-75 in Denison would make a far better case for completing Phase 4B.
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BJ59

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Re: Dallas North Tollway Widening and Extension, SH 121 northward
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2023, 01:10:07 PM »

If the state was building the tollway they would probably just now be acquiring the ROW for the section between SH-121 and US-380  :D
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