Daylight Savings Time (2022): Once And For All!!!

[kphoger]

Here are some extreme dawn/dusk times depending on if permanent standard time or permanent DST was observed.  What example seems more egregious? 

If Boston observed permanent 'standard time' during the longest day of the year...
Dawn/Dusk: 03:32/19:59

If Detroit observed permanent DST during the shortest day of the year...
Dawn/Dusk: 08:24/19:02

Remember that phase in your life when you would sleep in till noon (ie. teenage years)?  Even if the country observed permanent DST and you lived in a northern city on the western edge of a timezone during the dead of winter, that teenager would still be wasting about 3.5 hours of daylight.  Now remember that phase in your life where you would always get up at 3:30AM?  Yeah, me neither. 

I believe the times you list are incorrect. Sunrise in Detroit on the shortest day of the year is currently at 7:58 and sunset is at 17:02, so they would be at 8:58 and 18:02, respectively, on DST. Sunrise in Boston on the longest day of the year under the current system is at 5:07 and sunset is at 20:24, so they would be at 4:07 and 19:24, respectively, on standard time.

That doesn't necessarily change the validity of your conclusion.

I checked it myself. tradephoric seems to be including some time when the sun is below the horizon but it's still partially light.

Seriously.

Dawn ≠ Sunrise

Dusk ≠ Sunset

[1995hoo]

Fair enough. I indeed wasn't paying close enough attention and overlooked the use of "dawn" and "dusk." (Certainly there are a lot of people on the road who think the law saying your headlights must be on beginning at sunset instead means "after dusk" ....)

[kphoger]

(Certainly there are a lot of people on the road who think the law saying your headlights must be on beginning at sunset instead means "after dusk" ....)

I don't think most states actually require that.

ARTICLE 11 – LIGHTS AND OTHER LIGHTING EQUIPMENT

§ 12-201 – When lighted lamps are required

Every vehicle upon a highway within this State at any time from a half hour after sunset to a half hour before sunrise and at any other time when, due to insufficient light or unfavorable atmospheric conditions, persons and vehicles on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 1,000 feet ahead, shall display lighted head and other lamps and illuminating devices as respectively required for different classes of vehicles, subject to exceptions with respect to parked vehicles, and further that stop lights, turn signals and other signaling devices shall be lighted as prescribed for the use of such devices.

Edited to add:  I may be mistaken about state laws.  The first one I actually checked (Illinois) doesn't include the "half hour" bit, and actually requires them from sunset to sunrise.

[JoePCool14]

Count me on the side that opposes this. Sunlight in the morning makes a big difference when getting up. It seems stupid to have to wake up at a normal time when it's still dark out. And for the record, I am almost always on the eastern end of a time zone.

Changing clocks twice a year isn't that bad. People just whine about it for a bit and then get adjusted and move on.

Teenagers would love permanent DST as they constantly sleep in till noon.  The sun has already been up for 3 hours by the time they wake up anyways.  At least permanent DST would limit the amount of daylight they waste.

Not something we should encourage in my opinion. I do not plan to let my future children stay in bed that late. I get sleeping in, but that's ridiculous.

[1995hoo]

(Certainly there are a lot of people on the road who think the law saying your headlights must be on beginning at sunset instead means "after dusk" ....)

I don't think most states actually require that.

ARTICLE 11 – LIGHTS AND OTHER LIGHTING EQUIPMENT

§ 12-201 – When lighted lamps are required

Every vehicle upon a highway within this State at any time from a half hour after sunset to a half hour before sunrise and at any other time when, due to insufficient light or unfavorable atmospheric conditions, persons and vehicles on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 1,000 feet ahead, shall display lighted head and other lamps and illuminating devices as respectively required for different classes of vehicles, subject to exceptions with respect to parked vehicles, and further that stop lights, turn signals and other signaling devices shall be lighted as prescribed for the use of such devices.

I don't know what any state other than Virginia requires. It's the law here that headlights be used from sunset to sunrise, although as a practical matter an intelligent driver should be using them before sunset, regardless of what the statute might say, due to the sun glare that can make your car invisible to oncoming traffic.

[Henry]

Put me in as part of the "don't care" crowd. I hear many people in support of it are tired of changing their clocks twice a year, but frankly, it doesn't matter to me.

[kphoger]

I don't know what any state other than Virginia requires. It's the law here that headlights be used from sunset to sunrise, although as a practical matter an intelligent driver should be using them before sunset, regardless of what the statute might say, due to the sun glare that can make your car invisible to oncoming traffic.

Yep.  I edited my original reply, as I was unaware until now just how few states apparently match the UVC's wording on this point.

[webny99]

I was taught 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise, just like the quote kphoger posted. But that may have changed.

[kphoger]

I was taught 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise, just like the quote kphoger posted. But that may have changed.

That's accurate for New York.

Consolidated Laws of New York

CHAPTER 71 – Vehicle & Traffic

TITLE 3 – Safety Responsibility; Financial Security; Equipment; Inspection; Size and Weight; and Other Provisions

ARTICLE 9 – Equipment of Motor Vehicles and Motorcycles

§ 375 – Equipment

2. (a)  Every motor vehicle except a motorcycle, driven upon a public highway during the period from one-half hour after sunset to one-half hour before sunrise or at any other time when windshield wipers are in use, as a result of rain, sleet, snow, hail or other unfavorable atmospheric condition, and at such other times as visibility for a distance of one thousand feet ahead of such motor vehicle is not clear, shall display:

[tradephoric]

Changing clocks twice a year isn't that bad. People just whine about it for a bit and then get adjusted and move on.

Studies have been done that show pretty serious health impacts following the DST shift.  I'm just curious though, if they did decide to do away with the time changes, would you prefer permanent standard time or permanent daylight saving time in this country?

[kalvado]

What we had before standard times were created in the 1800s was a mess.  You could ride to the next town and be a few minutes later or earlier or anything up to an hour.  I wouldn't want to go back to a patchwork quilt like it was then, not even at the state level - although I'm fine with individual states being able to exempt themselves from DST if they want.

There's little difference between those two things, or between them and what's being proposed.

As I understand it, states will still be allowed to opt in or out of DST.  Therefore, a trip down I-95 could have one driving through a patchwork quilt of opt-in and opt-out states.  That's true now, and it would be true if this were to pass.  I'm not saying it's all that likely, because states generally want to be somewhat in sync with their neighbors (for example, Kansas has already expressed that they would work with Missouri before making any decisions if this bill passes), but I do think it would be more likely in the hypothetical future than it is presently.  The reason I think it's more likely if this passes is that different states will have different reactions to the legislation.

If you look at the map of solar day, there is a pretty well defined zone where moving clock makes sense - and that is somewhere between 40 and 60 degrees latitude.
So I expect every state north of NYC and most of Canada to seriously consider DST, and states south of NYC may happily opt out.
Biggest uncertainty would be exactly in I-95 megalopolis cluster, from Boston to DC. If there is a divide, and where it would be, may be the most interesting question.   

[kalvado]

Changing clocks twice a year isn't that bad. People just whine about it for a bit and then get adjusted and move on.

Studies have been done that show pretty serious health impacts following the DST shift.  I'm just curious though, if they did decide to do away with the time changes, would you prefer permanent standard time or permanent daylight saving time in this country?

Think about it in such a way: astronomic time is solar noon = 12.00, timezone division makes it 11.30 AM to 12.30 PM. You get roughly equal amount of sun before and after that time (may change at edge of timezones, and due to earth orbit being more complex than a circle).
Now, our schedules are nowhere close to symmetric around 12. Proverbial 9-to-5 assumes getting up at 7 AM give or take, back home by 6 PM, personal time 6-10PM, with actual mid-day around 2-3 PM.

[US 89]

It varies by state. In Utah, it is also a half-hour after sunset to a half-hour before sunrise:

(1)   (a)   The operator of a vehicle shall turn on the lamps or lights of the vehicle on a highway at any time from a half hour after sunset to a half hour before sunrise and at any other time when, due to insufficient light or unfavorable atmospheric conditions, persons and vehicles on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 1,000 feet ahead.

Looking quickly at a handful of neighboring jurisdictions, it looks like NV and WY have the same law, while ID, CO, AZ are sunrise-to-sunset states.

[mgk920]

Heck, I wouldn't mind us going to worldwide UTC ('Zulu'/Military) time instead and adjust our personal schedules accordingly.  No semi-annual clock changes, everyone yells "Happy new year!" at the same time and no time zone confusions.  Instead of it now being 1:20pm (1320) Central Daylight Time (UTC -5) as I post this, it would be 1820Z.



Mike

[kalvado]

Heck, I wouldn't mind us going to worldwide UTC ('Zulu'/Military) time instead and adjust our personal schedules accordingly.  No semi-annual clock changes, everyone yells "Happy new year!" at the same time and no time zone confusions.  Instead of it now being 1:20pm (1320) Central Daylight Time (UTC -5) as I post this, it would be 1820Z.



Mike

Simple problem: midnight GMT is somewhere during workday in San Francisco and Tokyo, so date would change mid-day. would be a huge mess with "your appointment is on Tuesday 00.15  GMT - and that was 24 hours ago! 
Not to mention religious things tied to date or day of week, like Sabbath or Lent.   

[mgk920]

Yes, I am fully aware that when time zones sere first set up in the USA it was a totally private endeavor that was undertaken so that intercity rain schedules would work.

Mike

[mgk920]

Heck, I wouldn't mind us going to worldwide UTC ('Zulu'/Military) time instead and adjust our personal schedules accordingly.  No semi-annual clock changes, everyone yells "Happy new year!" at the same time and no time zone confusions.  Instead of it now being 1:20pm (1320) Central Daylight Time (UTC -5) as I post this, it would be 1820Z.  It's why all ships in the USNavy operate on 'Z'.



Mike

Simple problem: midnight GMT is somewhere during workday in San Francisco and Tokyo, so date would change mid-day. would be a huge mess with "your appointment is on Tuesday 00.15  GMT - and that was 24 hours ago! 
Not to mention religious things tied to date or day of week, like Sabbath or Lent.

0900Z Wednesday in San Francisco is the exact same time as 0900Z Wednesday in Tokyo.



Mike

[kalvado]

Heck, I wouldn't mind us going to worldwide UTC ('Zulu'/Military) time instead and adjust our personal schedules accordingly.  No semi-annual clock changes, everyone yells "Happy new year!" at the same time and no time zone confusions.  Instead of it now being 1:20pm (1320) Central Daylight Time (UTC -5) as I post this, it would be 1820Z.  It's why all ships in the USNavy operate on 'Z'.



Mike

Simple problem: midnight GMT is somewhere during workday in San Francisco and Tokyo, so date would change mid-day. would be a huge mess with "your appointment is on Tuesday 00.15  GMT - and that was 24 hours ago! 
Not to mention religious things tied to date or day of week, like Sabbath or Lent.

0900Z Wednesday in San Francisco is the exact same time as 0900Z Wednesday in Tokyo.



Mike

Once upon a time I was boarding... not sure if it was a bus or a train, it was a while ago -  with 00.10 (12.10AM) departure, and someone was turned down since they had their ticket for the previous day. They thought they were departing on Wednesday as their ticket said - without realizing that they actually arrived to the station Wednesday evening for a Thursday early morning departure.

[JoePCool14]

Changing clocks twice a year isn't that bad. People just whine about it for a bit and then get adjusted and move on.

Studies have been done that show pretty serious health impacts following the DST shift.  I'm just curious though, if they did decide to do away with the time changes, would you prefer permanent standard time or permanent daylight saving time in this country?

If I had to choose one or the other, I'd rather have permanent standard time. I can sacrifice it being so bright out later if it means it's easier to wake up.

[kevinb1994]

What we had before standard times were created in the 1800s was a mess.  You could ride to the next town and be a few minutes later or earlier or anything up to an hour.  I wouldn't want to go back to a patchwork quilt like it was then, not even at the state level - although I'm fine with individual states being able to exempt themselves from DST if they want.

There's little difference between those two things, or between them and what's being proposed.

As I understand it, states will still be allowed to opt in or out of DST.  Therefore, a trip down I-95 could have one driving through a patchwork quilt of opt-in and opt-out states.  That's true now, and it would be true if this were to pass.  I'm not saying it's all that likely, because states generally want to be somewhat in sync with their neighbors (for example, Kansas has already expressed that they would work with Missouri before making any decisions if this bill passes), but I do think it would be more likely in the hypothetical future than it is presently.  The reason I think it's more likely if this passes is that different states will have different reactions to the legislation.

If you look at the map of solar day, there is a pretty well defined zone where moving clock makes sense - and that is somewhere between 40 and 60 degrees latitude.
So I expect every state north of NYC and most of Canada to seriously consider DST, and states south of NYC may happily opt out.
Biggest uncertainty would be exactly in I-95 megalopolis cluster, from Boston to DC. If there is a divide, and where it would be, may be the most interesting question.   

I can say that the divide would involve New Jersey. I grew up not far from a province line

I'm all for the change...I'm just wondering and hoping that it will be implemented properly...seems like something out of Minority Report.

[tolbs17]

I think standard time all year would be better.

[kevinb1994]

I think standard time all year would be better.

It would be if everyone could agree how to re-implement it properly. But I have a slight preference for DST year-round since moving south.

[NWI_Irish96]

I think standard time all year would be better.

It would be if everyone could agree how to re-implement it properly. But I have a slight preference for DST year-round since moving south.

Standard time year round and DST year round are essentially the same thing, just using different time zones as a base.

[Dirt Roads]

I think standard time all year would be better.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this before.  The primary issue before state legislatures and Congress over the past 25 years or so has been that the Average Joe would like to retain standard time, whereas farmers need daylight savings during the Summer months.  My wife just shared that a local church recently posted a story about someone she knew that recalled getting up at 2AM in order to milk the cows and collect eggs before breakfast, all in time to get breakfast cooked and cleanup done before sunrise.  That was probably in eastern North Carolina, whereas in the mountains of West Virginia you only needed to get up by 3AM to do the same.  (Of course, in some parts of West Virginia you still can't see daylight for a while). 

Assuming that these farmers still aim for 8 hours of sleep, they've got to head off to bed about 6PM/7PM.  It's no wonder that farmers like the extra hour from DST.

[kphoger]

Standard time year round and DST year round are essentially the same thing, just using different time zones as a base.

Except everyone isn't going to suddenly shift to a new time zone.  So they aren't the same thing.

farmers need daylight savings during the Summer months.

Bullshit.  Farmers work whenever the sun is up, no matter what time their clock says it is.