Daylight Savings Time (2022): Once And For All!!!

[formulanone]

Yawn.

Wake me up when anything about this actually happens.
Or doesn't happen.
Or partially happens.

[jeffandnicole]

My brother sent a message observing that permanent DST is almost as idiotic as the universal DH.

Is there a way we could combine the two somehow?

The games will still be 9 innings in regulation, from the 2nd thru the 10th inning.  The 7th inning stretch will occur in the middle of the 8th inning.

[US 89]

If this does actually pass, I bet some time zone lines might start moving east to compensate as states on the western edges of time zones decide they don't like the super late sunrises in winter.

Arizona is effectively PDT already, so might as well make that official
Indiana could move to CDT, and honestly should be in the Central time zone anyway
Southwest Idaho might shift to PDT
etc...

[DTComposer]

I wonder if, in the long term, the rise in remote work (and the corresponding reduction in commutes) will have any effect on popular opinion?

I think we're just too tall a country, with our population too spread out north to south, to have a solution that will satisfy everyone. (a country like Canada is "taller", but its population is highly compressed in one band of latitude)

That said, some back-of-the-envelope math says around half of our population is within 3 degrees latitude of New York. With permanent DST, on the shortest days of the year civil twilight would begin at 7:47, so if you have a "typical" job (i.e., 9am start), unless your commute is over an hour it's going to be in daylight. Another 35% or so live within 3 degrees latitude of Dallas, where the situation is similar or even less pronounced.

I recognize that many millions of people do not work a 9-5 job. I also recognize that a lot of students start earlier than this (I was one of those), but that trend seems to be receding as well.

Finally, I recognize that there are significant metros north of these latitudinal bands (Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, Detroit, Boston) but it only seems to total about 10% of the population.

I guess I'm wondering just what percent of the population would actually be negatively impacted by permanent DST, versus the number who might benefit from it? We get a lot of anecdotes, but not a lot of data.

[oscar]

In the event this bill passes as is, it would leave Arizona (except the Navajo nation) and Hawaii an hour behind everyone else for the whole year. The most likely outcome of this is that these two states would spring forward one last time (after not doing so for decades) to be in sync with the rest of their timezone.

Hawaii might be more concerned about staying in synch with non-DST Asian trading and tourism partners, and not hassling them with even a one-time adjustment for Hawaii.

[webny99]

I do not understand why anyone thinks this is a good idea. As with everything else in life, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Here in the DC area, sunrise around Christmastime is at around 7:25 and sunset is around 16:46. You get up in the dark and you commute home (or get off work) in the dark. If we were on DST at that time of year, sunrise would be at 8:25 and sunset at 17:46. So it would be even darker when you get up and it would still be dark when you commute home (or get off work), meaning there would be no benefit whatsoever to DST. The effect would be aggravated further north, of course, due to the days being shorter, and it would also be aggravated in the western portions of time zones due to the later sunrises there (South Bend would see sunrises later than 9:00 in December, for example).

Pretty much agreed. The whole concept of DST makes sense if you want daylight distributed as evenly as possible when the days are shorter, and more evening daylight (while avoiding extremely early sunrises) in the summer.

The biggest issue is the actual switch, which already occurs at about the most convenient time possible (of course not for everyone, but for about the most people possible). Also, we now have phones/computers/etc. which switch times automatically, so it's almost impossible to forget or not know it happened.

... Or to no longer being able to see the Christmas lights in my neighborhood (as sunset will now be at least half an hour after I get home every single day of the year).

Yeah, dark winter evenings are very much a part of winter. Winter evening commutes wouldn't be the same if it was always light out.  And you can't really say the same thing about the morning because in the evening, you're already awake. Waking up, going through your morning routine, and driving to work while it's pitch black out is much harder than driving home in the dark. Morning daylight is just integral to the entire day/night concept in a way that evening light just isn't. How can you even call it "morning" if you're already at your office/warehouse job working before seeing the light of day?

[vdeane]

Another thought I had: how will the Spanish-language countdown work on Dick Clark's New Years Rockin Eve with San Juan and Times Square in the same time zone?  AST and EDT are basically the same thing, after all.

[jeffandnicole]

...I recognize that many millions of people do not work a 9-5 job. I also recognize that a lot of students start earlier than this (I was one of those), but that trend seems to be receding as well.

Because most workdays are 8 hours *plus lunch*, there's actually very few "9 to 5" jobs. And based on commutting patterns, I'd venture to say most jobs start at 8 or earlier.

There's been a few schools that are starting later, but nothing that really signifies a trend.

Another thought I had: how will the Spanish-language countdown work on Dick Clark's New Years Rockin Eve with San Juan and Times Square in the same time zone?  AST and EDT are basically the same thing, after all.

It was a poorly attempted gimmic anyway. Almost no one will miss it.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

There's no perfect solution that will please everyone, since people's preference is largely based on their own personal lifestyle and even their location within a particular time zone, and we're applying a man-made construct with man-made division lines to a natural phenomenon.

For example, I would never support permanent standard time because I like the sunsets between 8 PM and 9 PM that go from mid-April to September in Minnesota.

[Rothman]

All for it. #DSTYearRound.

I'll take dark mornings in the winter and the Sun setting later than 4 p.m. over depression-inducing "standard time" (5 months out of the year is somehow "standard").

Time to bug my rep in Congress...

[ran4sh]

One thing they could do about the ST/DST issue is promote moving south for more sun in winter, since it seems like the vast majority of the population is ignorant of the fact that the sun hours don't vary as much farther south. It's the kind of thing that people want a government solution to when there really isn't one.

[kkt]

Strongly opposed.  DST in the winter means it doesn't get light until after people are at work or at school.  Seeing some light outside it part of what wakes people up.  They can force themselves awake when it's still pitch dark if necessary, but they're still half asleep, slow reaction times, poor judgement.  Less happy, too.  The thing is, we tried this one year.  In 1974 we changed to DST at the beginning of January.  People hated it.  Congress was deluged with mail asking for it to be changed back and did, as soon as they were back from winter recess. 

[Roadgeekteen]

I'm confused. Why is daylight savings such a sensitive topic on this forum? I've been here for 5 years and still don't know.

[DTComposer]

...I recognize that many millions of people do not work a 9-5 job. I also recognize that a lot of students start earlier than this (I was one of those), but that trend seems to be receding as well.

Because most workdays are 8 hours *plus lunch*, there's actually very few "9 to 5" jobs. And based on commutting patterns, I'd venture to say most jobs start at 8 or earlier.

Fair point on the lunch, but this also feels anecdotal. Based on (pre-COVID) commuting patterns here (San Francisco/Silicon Valley), my anecdotal experience is 8:30am (or later) is the average start time. The difference in ridership on the 7am and 8am Caltrain from San Jose to San Francisco was considerable; and the freeways heading into the downtowns or the tech campuses were relatively clear until 8:15, then they were slammed. But again, I just data, not anecdotes, so here's some data:

To somewhat support your point, BLS statistics from 2015 say 52% of the workforce were at their job at 8am. But that doesn't mean start time - that 52% includes people who started at midnight, 3am, etc. - people whose commute would be in the dark no matter what. The number goes up to 66% at 9am.

Next, the American Community Survey from 2014 puts the median start time for a job at 7:55, also somewhat supporting your point (a majority, but not "most"). But FiveThirtyEight's analysis of that data shows a great deal of those earlier start times are in industries that aren't tied into the business day, but into the solar day, such as agriculture or the military. Would it be that if daylight is an hour later, then they'd just start an hour later? Also, 7:55 is the median start time for all jobs, including jobs that start outside of the "standard business day" (whether you call that 8-5, 9-6, or some variant thereof), and jobs that have shifting start times. I'd be interested in the median start time for jobs that start between, say, 7:30am and 9:30am?

Census data for 2019 says the average commute was 27.6 minutes (again, all jobs).

Federal Highway Administration data for 2017 says 43% of the workforce has the ability to shift their start times.

And of course, all of this is pre-COVID. But if I were to make some sort of stab, I would say 15% of the workforce is commuting between 6:45 and 7:45, can't change that commute time, and they would be negatively affected by permanent DST (i.e., commuting pre-daylight) for an additional eight weeks each year.

So would that outweigh the potential benefits of permanent DST, which I would argue are largely socially-based (i.e., shopping/dining/errands/friends and family/entertainment)? How does that change as we move more and more to a information and service economy, and as post-COVID trends increase the number of remote and "non-traditional" work arrangements?

Personally, I don't mind the early sunsets in November and December, when the holidays keep activities and social energy going into the evening; but I find January and February to be dreary and would welcome another hour of light at the end of the day (especially to give my kid more time for out-of-the-house activities), and I really enjoy the later sunsets of DST.

[KeithE4Phx]

I'm confused. Why is daylight savings such a sensitive topic on this forum? I've been here for 5 years and still don't know.

It's political, and it's one area where the Federal government should NOT go. 

Because of latitude and longitude differences, each state should be able to decide what it wants to do, based on the needs of its own people. Here in Arizona, we don't need to be on Mountain Daylight Time because it would get too hot in the evening, with sunset at around 9:30 PM.  Other states further north might want something different because their hours of daylight are longer in the summer and shorter in the winter.  They should be able to determine that for themselves.  And then there's Hawaii, where daylight time is an irrelevancy.

Bottom line:  Congress needs to butt out, repeal the Federal Uniform Time Act, and let the states determine what they need.

[Bruce]

Evening light benefits far more people than morning light. If the schools are a problem, then they should start later in the day (which is massively beneficial to kids and teens anyway).

I can deal with a 9 am sunrise if it means a 5 pm winter sunset (instead of 4 pm).

[kkt]

I'm confused. Why is daylight savings such a sensitive topic on this forum? I've been here for 5 years and still don't know.

It's political, and it's one area where the Federal government should NOT go. 

Because of latitude and longitude differences, each state should be able to decide what it wants to do, based on the needs of its own people. Here in Arizona, we don't need to be on Mountain Daylight Time because it would get too hot in the evening, with sunset at around 9:30 PM.  Other states further north might want something different because their hours of daylight are longer in the summer and shorter in the winter.  They should be able to determine that for themselves.  And then there's Hawaii, where daylight time is an irrelevancy.

Bottom line:  Congress needs to butt out, repeal the Federal Uniform Time Act, and let the states determine what they need.

What we had before standard times were created in the 1800s was a mess.  You could ride to the next town and be a few minutes later or earlier or anything up to an hour.  I wouldn't want to go back to a patchwork quilt like it was then, not even at the state level - although I'm fine with individual states being able to exempt themselves from DST if they want.

[US 89]

Bottom line:  Congress needs to butt out, repeal the Federal Uniform Time Act, and let the states determine what they need.

Nah, there needs to be some sort of oversight. Look at Indiana - for many years, they were a mess of which counties were Central, which were Eastern, and which did or didn't observe DST. It was hard enough to keep track of the various changes happening within one state - imagine keeping track of what 50 states are doing with their time zones, affecting millions more people.

Also, if you aren't careful, you could easily end up with unworkable time differentials if each state were left to its own devices. Say Nevada decided to take a Phoenix-like approach thanks to the very hot summers down in Vegas where most of the population lives, and the whole state observes year-round PST. California and Utah, due to their milder climates and preference for later sunsets, observe year-round PDT and MDT respectively. All of a sudden you've created a situation where you lose an hour by going west to CA, and 2 hours by going east to UT. Which seems like a really bad idea, although it is kind of fun to think about as it does bring West Wendover into the picture - I wonder if they'd still stay on Utah time or if they'd split the difference in such a scenario.

[KeithE4Phx]

Bottom line:  Congress needs to butt out, repeal the Federal Uniform Time Act, and let the states determine what they need.

Nah, there needs to be some sort of oversight. Look at Indiana - for many years, they were a mess of which counties were Central, which were Eastern, and which did or didn't observe DST. It was hard enough to keep track of the various changes happening within one state - imagine keeping track of what 50 states are doing with their time zones, affecting millions more people.

The trouble with Indiana back when I grew up there was that they had Fast Time and Slow Time, where some counties observed DST and some didn't, combined with being a split Eastern/Central time zone state.  Slow time meant that it took people in those areas an hour and a half to watch 60 Minutes. 

Also, if you aren't careful, you could easily end up with unworkable time differentials if each state were left to its own devices. Say Nevada decided to take a Phoenix-like approach thanks to the very hot summers down in Vegas where most of the population lives, and the whole state observes year-round PST. California and Utah, due to their milder climates and preference for later sunsets, observe year-round PDT and MDT respectively. All of a sudden you've created a situation where you lose an hour by going west to CA, and 2 hours by going east to UT. Which seems like a really bad idea, although it is kind of fun to think about as it does bring West Wendover into the picture - I wonder if they'd still stay on Utah time or if they'd split the difference in such a scenario.

Nevada is economically tied to California more than it is to Arizona.  They will be joined at the hip to whatever California does.

[wxfree]

I propose legislation requiring a substantial reduction in the angle of the earth's rotational axis.  That would take care of a lot of these problems so we could finally stop arguing about it.

[KeithE4Phx]

I propose legislation requiring a substantial reduction in the angle of the earth's rotational axis.  That would take care of a lot of these problems so we could finally stop arguing about it.

Don't say that too loud.  Some Congresscritter just might propose it.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I propose legislation requiring a substantial reduction in the angle of the earth's rotational axis.  That would take care of a lot of these problems so we could finally stop arguing about it.

Don't say that too loud.  Some Congresscritter just might propose it.

Well, one of them did suggest changing the Earth's orbit earlier this year to combat climate change...

[tolbs17]

Thought these threads were NOT ALLOWED on this forum. I think it would have been better to take it elsewhere.

Anyway. I kinda support it and kinda do not. Here in Pitt County elementary school goes to school at 7:30AM while for middle and high schools it's 8:30AM. School start times might need to be adjusted to reflect this change. It would be a disaster to see elementary schoolers getting up so early in the dark.

Tolbs

[Alex]

Been waiting for this for far too long. The time change screws up my circadian rhythms every time (posting this at 242 AM is proof).

[Scott5114]

I'm confused. Why is daylight savings such a sensitive topic on this forum? I've been here for 5 years and still don't know.

It's one of those things where every possible argument for or against it was written by 1979 and people just get stuck in a loop saying the same stuff over and over again.

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=46831&p=1198722

Here's a DST thread on a totally different forum. It is identical to any of our DST threads, just with different usernames.