Risk Aversion

[thspfc]

And fair enough if you don't want to respond to this, but from every article I've read (and I'm obviously not a doctor, so take with a grain of salt), the risk of myocarditis is exponentially higher from getting Covid than it is from getting vaccinated. But to each their own.

Which is why I ultimately decided to get the vaccine, though not until fall 2021.

I obviously don't speak for anyone else (and this doesn't reflect the actual efficacy of the vaccine), but I don't think the vaccine did anything for me. I had Covid twice, once before and once after getting the vaccine. The second time, while still more or less a typical cold, was definitely worse than the first.

[hbelkins]

I think I answered the ongoing question earlier in the thread, but no, I've never taken a flu shot. I've also never, in my memory, had the flu. (Tonsillitis was my most frequent childhood illness but after having my tonsils taken out, I never missed another day of school. I think the removal occurred before I entered fifth grade, so that was seven years of perfect attendance.)

I've seen too many people get sick after taking the flu shot. My dad got very ill from the shot one year and I've inherited so much from him genetically, that convinced me I'd never take that shot.

[Scott5114]

I don't get the flu shot simply because, as far as I can tell, I've never actually gotten the flu. Even when it was actively circulating in my department at work, I never got it. I don't know whether this is pure luck or me just having a good immune system, but either way, the inconvenience outweighs the risk.

Meanwhile, I caught covid (probably alpha, since that was the variant of choice at the time) in October 2020, and it was such a miserable experience that I had absolutely no desire to ever suffer through it again. I was never in any real risk of dying (unlike the person I caught it from, who did die of it), but it was absolutely no fun at all. It was the second-worst illness I've ever had (I think the time I had strep was worse). So I was keen on getting vaccinated as soon as possible.

The first dose was fine, but the second and third was just like having the real thing again, except for only 24 hours or so rather than the full week that the real disease was. For the third dose, we knew what was coming, so we planned it out–did it on my wife's day off, and coordinated with a friend to get vaccinated at the same time as us and stay the night at our house. That way all three of us could ride out the misery together.

I don't regret the choice; it was much more preferable to be able to have the misery limited to one day that could be scheduled than to have a solid week of it at an unpredictable time. My wife ended up catching omicron a month later (tested positive at work) and, unlike with alpha, suffered no symptoms at all, and I never tested positive for it. So as far as I'm concerned the vaccination was a rousing success for my family.

[Max Rockatansky]

I planned out all four of my COVID shots to during work days and on base.  I remember scheduling myself for work the next day after each shot.  The theory I was running with was that I rather ruin a work day than a day off given it eventually became mandated for awhile and I have a ton of sick leave. The worst side effect I had was a sore arm with shots one and three.  With the second one my wife was convinced that I was tired from the shot but I had only slept 5.5 hours the night before. 

Also as a Senior Manager I'm not really "eligible"  for awards.  All the same I wanted a perfect attendance award for 2020, it was first year in about a decade I didn't call out.  I would have loved to call out given how unquestioned it was, I never felt sickly.

[J N Winkler]

Hey, let's hop on a tangent away from COVID, what do you think?  Let's talk flu shots.  Do you guys take the "risk" of not getting flu shots?  Has your stance on flu shots changed since 2020?

I happily got all of the COVID shots available, but I've never had a flu shot and don't intend to.

I haven't been consistent about getting the flu shot annually.  Identifying which strains will dominate a given dosing cycle is a guessing game, and efficacy is low even for the strains targeted.  I've never had bad side effects from a flu shot, but I have also probably had just one case of flu in the last 20 years, which was mild and cleared within 72 hours.  However, when we had an immune-compromised family member, I did ensure I got the flu shot every year.

I didn't hesitate to get the covid vaccine, but would likely have waited until there was more slack in the system (shorter lines at vaccination clinics, etc.) if the local mask mandate had been kept in place several weeks longer.  I ended up on Team Moderna, in an area that standardized on Pfizer, largely because I got my first two doses during mass vaccination events at Hunter Health Clinic, which had a separate allocation (from federal stocks of the Moderna vaccine) and so did not have to follow Kansas' prioritization scheme.  At the time I booked the first dose, I had no guarantee that I would be eligible for vaccination at the county-run clinic before the county repealed its mask mandate.

In my case the side effects became progressively worse with each dose (other than injection site soreness, which I've had with all three doses, I had nothing for the first, a bad headache for the second, and then headache, malaise, chills, fatigue, lymph node swelling, etc. for the booster), which makes me suspect repeated doses have a sensitizing effect for many people that may in turn make their public-health benefits harder to sell.  I don't know to what extent this has been systematically investigated, however.

I have never knowingly had covid, but I have also never had a PCR or rapid antigen test.

[Duke87]

Let's talk flu shots.  Do you guys take the "risk" of not getting flu shots?  Has your stance on flu shots changed since 2020?

Never got a flu shot prior to 2020 because, being neither elderly nor immunocompromised, I didn't believe it necessary and didn't want to be taking one away from someone who needed it more than I did.

In my various readings in 2020, I ended up being disavowed of the notion that flu shots are in short supply. So for the first time in my life I went and got one, out of a sense of civic duty to do everything reasonable to keep flu cases down to help keep space in hospitals open. Got one again in 2021 and I intend to keep getting one every year indefinitely, or at least so long as I can get them free of charge. I'd probably stop if they started asking me to pay for them out of pocket.

[GCrites]

Thread is way more boring than I thought it would be.

[Dirt Roads]

Thread is way more boring than I thought it would be.

Then let's go down a different path.  Growing up in West Virginia, we didn't really care so much about risk and personal safety.  It got serious for me first, when I started working on the railroad in the signal design shop, and second, when I got put in charge of 50+ signalmen who grew up much like me (and didn't really care so much about risk and personal safety).  But they did care about their excellent safety record, which was worth fighting for.  Anyhow, this all bent over double when I got pushed into the safety certification world (and in my case, this was during a transition from hardware safety to software safety certification).  I now find it much harder to be practical at home when I was the primary enforcer of zero tolerance risk. 

For instance, I now have a medication-related blood issue where I need to be careful about getting cut.  Living out in the woods for most of the past 30 years, I frequently use a chain saw.  I started talking about the risk to my specialty doctor, who just happens to be interested in forestry and sawmills as a hobby.  I was mentioning how I used to require my signalmen to use chainsaw chaps, and he couldn't believe that I never had used any.  Needless to say, I now have a medical prescription for chainsaw chaps and I've used them several times recently.  Twenty-five years ago, I could care less about getting cut with a chainsaw.

[Rothman]

I think I answered the ongoing question earlier in the thread, but no, I've never taken a flu shot. I've also never, in my memory, had the flu. (Tonsillitis was my most frequent childhood illness but after having my tonsils taken out, I never missed another day of school. I think the removal occurred before I entered fifth grade, so that was seven years of perfect attendance.)

I've seen too many people get sick after taking the flu shot. My dad got very ill from the shot one year and I've inherited so much from him genetically, that convinced me I'd never take that shot.

https://www.healthline.com/health/flu/flu-shot-yesterday-sick-today

[hbelkins]

Let's talk flu shots.  Do you guys take the "risk" of not getting flu shots?  Has your stance on flu shots changed since 2020?

Never got a flu shot prior to 2020 because, being neither elderly nor immunocompromised, I didn't believe it necessary and didn't want to be taking one away from someone who needed it more than I did.

In my various readings in 2020, I ended up being disavowed of the notion that flu shots are in short supply. So for the first time in my life I went and got one, out of a sense of civic duty to do everything reasonable to keep flu cases down to help keep space in hospitals open. Got one again in 2021 and I intend to keep getting one every year indefinitely, or at least so long as I can get them free of charge. I'd probably stop if they started asking me to pay for them out of pocket.

I have never heard it said that flu shots were ever in short supply.

[index]

I’ve never once encountered a bed bug in hundreds of hotel stays.  In all my years of managing hotel security I’ve only ever had once instance of bed bugs being found.  I don’t know why anyone worry over something that is so unlikely to be encountered.

Better to be safe than sorry. It only takes a minute or two to check and it can save you from having to deal with a $5000 infestation.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've never once encountered a bed bug in hundreds of hotel stays.  In all my years of managing hotel security I've only ever had once instance of bed bugs being found.  I don't know why anyone worry over something that is so unlikely to be encountered.

Better to be safe than sorry. It only takes a minute or two to check and it can save you from having to deal with a $5000 infestation.

Why would it cost me as someone who stays at a hotel $5,000 dollars?  We also have mitigation measures on hand for rooms that do have bed bugs.  It certainly didn't come close to 5k to clear the room I cited above, even after throwing the bedding out. 

[index]

I’ve never once encountered a bed bug in hundreds of hotel stays.  In all my years of managing hotel security I’ve only ever had once instance of bed bugs being found.  I don’t know why anyone worry over something that is so unlikely to be encountered.

Better to be safe than sorry. It only takes a minute or two to check and it can save you from having to deal with a $5000 infestation.

Why would it cost me as someone who stays at a hotel $5,000 dollars?  We also have mitigation measures on hand for rooms that do have bed bugs.  It certainly didn’t come close to 5k to clear the room I cited above, even after throwing the bedding out.

By that I mean potentially spreading them home and having them establish themselves. Some people don't react to bites, (such as myself) so by the time they realize they have bedbugs, they could be in very deep. Heat treating a larger home after trying other measures is around that price range, from what I've heard.

Some people also become traumatized/experience obsessive compulsive behaviors after dealing with infestations, which is a pretty well-documented phenomenon.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've never once encountered a bed bug in hundreds of hotel stays.  In all my years of managing hotel security I've only ever had once instance of bed bugs being found.  I don't know why anyone worry over something that is so unlikely to be encountered.

Better to be safe than sorry. It only takes a minute or two to check and it can save you from having to deal with a $5000 infestation.

Why would it cost me as someone who stays at a hotel $5,000 dollars?  We also have mitigation measures on hand for rooms that do have bed bugs.  It certainly didn't come close to 5k to clear the room I cited above, even after throwing the bedding out.

By that I mean potentially spreading them home and having them establish themselves. Some people don't react to bites, (such as myself) so by the time they realize they have bedbugs, they could be in very deep. Heat treating a larger home after trying other measures is around that price range, from what I've heard.

Some people also become traumatized/experience obsessive compulsive behaviors after dealing with infestations, which is a pretty well-documented phenomenon.

I remain uncompelled to become paranoid over it myself.  As stated above, I've never encountered the hazard myself in hundreds of hotel stays.  I see no reason to become paranoid about something that occurs infrequently.  Insects don't bother me and I've never displayed indications of OCD at any point of my near 40 years of life. 

Interesting aside there was a Comfort Inn I frequented in Alamogordo, NM for awhile on work trips.  The reason I stayed there so often was that it was a nice hotel and had cheap rates which allowed me to pocket more of my per diem.  The reason it had cheap rates was due to a fairly recent murder which had occurred in one of the rooms.  An airman from Holloman Air Force Base had killed his spouse while staying at said Comfort Inn during a domestic dispute.  The murder drove away a lot of customers and the hotel lowered the rates as an attempt to drive business.  The fact a murder occurred at the hotel over a domestic dispute didn't bother me, so I took advantage until they rebranded as Quality Inn.  After that I usually stayed in Ruidoso on work trips to southern New Mexico. 

[index]

I’ve never once encountered a bed bug in hundreds of hotel stays.  In all my years of managing hotel security I’ve only ever had once instance of bed bugs being found.  I don’t know why anyone worry over something that is so unlikely to be encountered.

Better to be safe than sorry. It only takes a minute or two to check and it can save you from having to deal with a $5000 infestation.

Why would it cost me as someone who stays at a hotel $5,000 dollars?  We also have mitigation measures on hand for rooms that do have bed bugs.  It certainly didn’t come close to 5k to clear the room I cited above, even after throwing the bedding out.

By that I mean potentially spreading them home and having them establish themselves. Some people don't react to bites, (such as myself) so by the time they realize they have bedbugs, they could be in very deep. Heat treating a larger home after trying other measures is around that price range, from what I've heard.

Some people also become traumatized/experience obsessive compulsive behaviors after dealing with infestations, which is a pretty well-documented phenomenon.

I remain uncompelled to become paranoid over it myself.  As stated above, I’ve never encountered the hazard myself in hundreds of hotel stays.  I see no reason to become paranoid about something that occurs infrequently. 

There's a difference between paranoia and just being safe. Checking for bedbugs for me is like putting a seat belt on, or washing your hands. It isn't guaranteed to save you, and the chances of something bad happening are low if you choose not to, but it can certainly improve your chances of being safe from harm, and it only takes a few seconds. I'm not saying that you have to, just explaining the rationale as to why I do it.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've never once encountered a bed bug in hundreds of hotel stays.  In all my years of managing hotel security I've only ever had once instance of bed bugs being found.  I don't know why anyone worry over something that is so unlikely to be encountered.

Better to be safe than sorry. It only takes a minute or two to check and it can save you from having to deal with a $5000 infestation.

Why would it cost me as someone who stays at a hotel $5,000 dollars?  We also have mitigation measures on hand for rooms that do have bed bugs.  It certainly didn't come close to 5k to clear the room I cited above, even after throwing the bedding out.

By that I mean potentially spreading them home and having them establish themselves. Some people don't react to bites, (such as myself) so by the time they realize they have bedbugs, they could be in very deep. Heat treating a larger home after trying other measures is around that price range, from what I've heard.

Some people also become traumatized/experience obsessive compulsive behaviors after dealing with infestations, which is a pretty well-documented phenomenon.

I remain uncompelled to become paranoid over it myself.  As stated above, I've never encountered the hazard myself in hundreds of hotel stays.  I see no reason to become paranoid about something that occurs infrequently. 

There's a difference between paranoia and just being safe. Checking for bedbugs for me is like putting a seat belt on, or washing your hands. It isn't guaranteed to save you, and the chances of something bad happening are low if you choose not to, but it can certainly improve your chances of being safe from harm, and it only takes a few seconds. I'm not saying that you have to, just explaining the rationale as to why I do it.

Odds are so far against it being encountered, so again I see no need to be concerned.

Regarding seat belt usage, there are certain scenarios I don't bother to wear one as well.  Some examples I can think of are low speed drives in my neighborhood and even things like some slower OHV trails.  In that case I'm aware of the cognitive dissidence to myself, I guess that I just don't really care?   

[NWI_Irish96]

I've never once encountered a bed bug in hundreds of hotel stays.  In all my years of managing hotel security I've only ever had once instance of bed bugs being found.  I don't know why anyone worry over something that is so unlikely to be encountered.

Better to be safe than sorry. It only takes a minute or two to check and it can save you from having to deal with a $5000 infestation.

Why would it cost me as someone who stays at a hotel $5,000 dollars?  We also have mitigation measures on hand for rooms that do have bed bugs.  It certainly didn't come close to 5k to clear the room I cited above, even after throwing the bedding out.

By that I mean potentially spreading them home and having them establish themselves. Some people don't react to bites, (such as myself) so by the time they realize they have bedbugs, they could be in very deep. Heat treating a larger home after trying other measures is around that price range, from what I've heard.

Some people also become traumatized/experience obsessive compulsive behaviors after dealing with infestations, which is a pretty well-documented phenomenon.

I remain uncompelled to become paranoid over it myself.  As stated above, I've never encountered the hazard myself in hundreds of hotel stays.  I see no reason to become paranoid about something that occurs infrequently. 

There's a difference between paranoia and just being safe. Checking for bedbugs for me is like putting a seat belt on, or washing your hands. It isn't guaranteed to save you, and the chances of something bad happening are low if you choose not to, but it can certainly improve your chances of being safe from harm, and it only takes a few seconds. I'm not saying that you have to, just explaining the rationale as to why I do it.

Odds are so far against it being encountered, so again I see no need to be concerned.

Regarding seat belt usage, there are certain scenarios I don't bother to wear one as well.  Some examples I can think of are low speed drives in my neighborhood and even things like some slower OHV trails.  In that case I'm aware of the cognitive dissidence to myself, I guess that I just don't really care?   

I just turned in a rental car I had while my car is being repaired, and it had an automatic parking brake that wouldn't disengage unless the driver seat belt was buckled. I'm sure there was some way around it, but I couldn't figure it out.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've never once encountered a bed bug in hundreds of hotel stays.  In all my years of managing hotel security I've only ever had once instance of bed bugs being found.  I don't know why anyone worry over something that is so unlikely to be encountered.

Better to be safe than sorry. It only takes a minute or two to check and it can save you from having to deal with a $5000 infestation.

Why would it cost me as someone who stays at a hotel $5,000 dollars?  We also have mitigation measures on hand for rooms that do have bed bugs.  It certainly didn't come close to 5k to clear the room I cited above, even after throwing the bedding out.

By that I mean potentially spreading them home and having them establish themselves. Some people don't react to bites, (such as myself) so by the time they realize they have bedbugs, they could be in very deep. Heat treating a larger home after trying other measures is around that price range, from what I've heard.

Some people also become traumatized/experience obsessive compulsive behaviors after dealing with infestations, which is a pretty well-documented phenomenon.

I remain uncompelled to become paranoid over it myself.  As stated above, I've never encountered the hazard myself in hundreds of hotel stays.  I see no reason to become paranoid about something that occurs infrequently. 

There's a difference between paranoia and just being safe. Checking for bedbugs for me is like putting a seat belt on, or washing your hands. It isn't guaranteed to save you, and the chances of something bad happening are low if you choose not to, but it can certainly improve your chances of being safe from harm, and it only takes a few seconds. I'm not saying that you have to, just explaining the rationale as to why I do it.

Odds are so far against it being encountered, so again I see no need to be concerned.

Regarding seat belt usage, there are certain scenarios I don't bother to wear one as well.  Some examples I can think of are low speed drives in my neighborhood and even things like some slower OHV trails.  In that case I'm aware of the cognitive dissidence to myself, I guess that I just don't really care?   

I just turned in a rental car I had while my car is being repaired, and it had an automatic parking brake that wouldn't disengage unless the driver seat belt was buckled. I'm sure there was some way around it, but I couldn't figure it out.

Some automakers have more aggressive measures than others to ensure seatbelt compliance.  Our two Subarus have progressively more annoying chimes for the front seats if it detects occupants, but nothing for the back.  My Challenger just has a red screen that I think gets timed out eventually if I remember right.

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding more safety related items that have become customary, I usually don't wear a helmet on a bike if it is a casual ride with my wife.  I don't usually wear mine until I hit speeds in excess of 30 MPH or go on a trail.

[thspfc]

Regarding more safety related items that have become customary, I usually don't wear a helmet on a bike if it is a casual ride with my wife.  I don't usually wear mine until I hit speeds in excess of 30 MPH or go on a trail.

Why not? What's the downside of wearing it?

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding more safety related items that have become customary, I usually don't wear a helmet on a bike if it is a casual ride with my wife.  I don't usually wear mine until I hit speeds in excess of 30 MPH or go on a trail.

Why not? What's the downside of wearing it?

Nothing, I just choose not to.  I'm aware of the risk to myself and the potential consequences of it. 

Another one is running.  I don't stay on the side walk or wear reflective clothing when run in the morning.  I rarely use cross walks given it is just easier to cut across gaps in traffic.  Of course I also run on remote country roads too, about the only measure you the to defend yourself on those is to face traffic.

[thspfc]

Regarding more safety related items that have become customary, I usually don't wear a helmet on a bike if it is a casual ride with my wife.  I don't usually wear mine until I hit speeds in excess of 30 MPH or go on a trail.

Why not? What's the downside of wearing it?

Nothing, I just choose not to.  I'm aware of the risk to myself and the potential consequences of it. 

I don't understand this line of thought at all.

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding more safety related items that have become customary, I usually don't wear a helmet on a bike if it is a casual ride with my wife.  I don't usually wear mine until I hit speeds in excess of 30 MPH or go on a trail.

Why not? What's the downside of wearing it?

Nothing, I just choose not to.  I'm aware of the risk to myself and the potential consequences of it. 

I don't understand this line of thought at all.

Hence the title or this subject of this thread. 

To that end, I have been injured numerous times cycling and I've had a couple concussions from it (one with a helmet on).  Similarly I've numerous bone breaks, concussions and other injuries from things like running, sports, ATV riding or even plain old hiking.  The way I see it the most likely way I'll go out is from one of those actives eventually, but if I do at least it will be doing something I enjoy.  I see that as a better end than probably a lot people would get, especially compared to some of my immediate family. 

If I had to place a bet on how I likely die  I would put my money on cardiac arrest related to dehydration from running.  I got pretty close to checking out that way once in 2015 when I was being with hydration in Orlando. 

[jeffandnicole]

Most helmet laws, and many other safety laws, are created due to insistence from the family due to a family member passing away.

Of course, the family could have insisted their family member wear the helmet or safety equipment without a law in place, but the family member probably didn't want to. If the law was created prior to them getting into the crash, they probably *still* wouldn't have worn the safety equipment.

In other words, many safety laws are created and named for people that wanted nothing to do with such a law.

[thspfc]

Regarding more safety related items that have become customary, I usually don't wear a helmet on a bike if it is a casual ride with my wife.  I don't usually wear mine until I hit speeds in excess of 30 MPH or go on a trail.

Why not? What's the downside of wearing it?

Nothing, I just choose not to.  I'm aware of the risk to myself and the potential consequences of it. 

I don't understand this line of thought at all.

Hence the title or this subject of this thread. 

Not really. There's a difference between risk aversion and intentional risk taking with no reward whatsoever.