Risk Aversion

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding more safety related items that have become customary, I usually don't wear a helmet on a bike if it is a casual ride with my wife.  I don't usually wear mine until I hit speeds in excess of 30 MPH or go on a trail.

Why not? What's the downside of wearing it?

Nothing, I just choose not to.  I'm aware of the risk to myself and the potential consequences of it. 

I don't understand this line of thought at all.

Hence the title or this subject of this thread. 

Not really. There's a difference between risk aversion and intentional risk taking with no reward whatsoever.

I never said what I have been doing is the logical thing to do.  I'm aware of the risks and consequences to a lot of the activities I engage in.  If somehow they ultimately be what takes me out then that's something I accept.  That's the whole gist of this thread, what is acceptable to one person may not be to another. 

I on a more philosophical level, watching two parents struggle to stay alive from long terminal cancer influences a lot of my thought.  They were both past the point where there was hope and all they did was just prolong their own suffering.  It was hard not to take something away from watching that level of pain with no hope attached to it.  In my mom's case she actively regretted trying to prolong her life instead of attempting to pursue some of things she wanted to do before death.  I guess that I ended up developing a fatalist mindset after watching everything play out.  I don't know if I'd try to hang on if I live to face similar circumstances but I feel at present moment that I likely wouldn't. 

To that end, if something I love doing brings a more agreeable end then I see that is a good way to go.  FWIW my wife and I don't agree on a fatalistic mindset towards life.  Who knows if external factors like potential children would change mine. 

[adventurernumber1]

Even so, foregoing a helmet when biking or a seatbelt when driving still seem a bit too risky. I would certainly rather be taken out doing an activity I love than a long spell of disease and suffering that slowly takes me out with no hope. But there's never a time I skip the helmet or seatbelt because I know if I was ever so unlucky as to get in a bad wreck or accident that could potentially spell severe doom for me. If the accident is bad enough someone could end up in the same situation as someone with a terminal disease, and that I fear more than death.

All that said, I am considerably risk-averse. I have become much more so over the years as I have become more paranoid and been forced to slow down (physically). It's quite the contradiction because my very username, created (and used on several different platforms, therefore it is a trademark that stuck and I don't plan to change it) when I was far more adventurous, doesn't describe me nearly as accurately now. I used to take some risks I couldn't fathom doing now. One of the most (retrospectively) frightening things I've ever done was walk on a neighbors very tall (and thin) brick retaining wall with my neighbor friends when I was very young, it was much like walking on a tight rope. I cringe thinking about what might have happened should I have fallen from the modest height, although it's probably not as bad as I suspect. It didn't faze me at all at the time, though, I was completely carefree. This is much tamer, but I'd also casually have my portable video game consoles (3DS) in my big shorts pockets while riding rollercoasters and water rides at Universal. They're still ticking 8 years later. 

[thspfc]

Regarding more safety related items that have become customary, I usually don't wear a helmet on a bike if it is a casual ride with my wife.  I don't usually wear mine until I hit speeds in excess of 30 MPH or go on a trail.

Why not? What's the downside of wearing it?

Nothing, I just choose not to.  I'm aware of the risk to myself and the potential consequences of it. 

I don't understand this line of thought at all.

Hence the title or this subject of this thread. 

Not really. There's a difference between risk aversion and intentional risk taking with no reward whatsoever.

I never said what I have been doing is the logical thing to do.  I'm aware of the risks and consequences to a lot of the activities I engage in.  If somehow they ultimately be what takes me out then that's something I accept.  That's the whole gist of this thread, what is acceptable to one person may not be to another. 

You do you I guess. You can explain it but I'm never going to understand why. To me it's not a risk tolerance thing, it's just a flat bad decision.

I on a more philosophical level, watching two parents struggle to stay alive from long terminal cancer influences a lot of my thought.  They were both past the point where there was hope and all they did was just prolong their own suffering.  It was hard not to take something away from watching that level of pain with no hope attached to it.  In my mom's case she actively regretted trying to prolong her life instead of attempting to pursue some of things she wanted to do before death.  I guess that I ended up developing a fatalist mindset after watching everything play out.  I don't know if I'd try to hang on if I live to face similar circumstances but I feel at present moment that I likely wouldn't. 

To that end, if something I love doing brings a more agreeable end then I see that is a good way to go.  FWIW my wife and I don't agree on a fatalistic mindset towards life.  Who knows if external factors like potential children would change mine.

How old were your parents when they died? I'd assume fairly old. Not wearing a bike helmet is a bad choice no matter how old you are, but it's a little more understandable if you're 80 than if you're 39. Why make choices with no benefit that risk losing what could be decades of healthy years (especially for you as a runner) out of fear for a slow death in the last year or two?

[Max Rockatansky]

My Dad died in 2007 and my Mom in 2015.  The truth is even before their deaths I was more happy engaging in activities described above but I took it another level so to speak afterwards.  I figured since really most of my family was gone that I didn't really have much reason to worry about self preservation to the extent I had previously.  One thing both my parents conveyed to me was how they regretted living safer lives and didn't pursue many of things they had as goals. 

There is a substantial difference between wanting to die and not taking extra steps to prevent it.  For example, I backed off Angel's Landing in 2016 due wet weather (for the area) and I still prepare properly hydration-wise for long runs.  It would be fair to say my level of risk aversion has declined, but certainly not to a blatantly suicidal extent.  I think it would be more accurate to say I'm less afraid of consequence, especially the mortal variety. 

But that mindset also applies to other things that carry less chance of physical hard.  I became more aggressive in pursuing a move back to the west coast since it was where I was most happy.  I was willing to put more of myself into things like relationships which led to me meeting my wife.  I also was a lot more fearful or risk adverse with spending money rather and saving it for a future which might not be a reality. 

Amusingly I am the command safety manager at my job.  The difference there is that safety in the venue of work is a profit and loss item.  Just like any expense mitigation of accident claims can lead to operating more in the black.

[JayhawkCO]

Re: the bike helmet thing, a lot of it is generational. No one my age wore helmets as a kid. I'd feel weird wearing one now doing something other than mountain biking.

[Max Rockatansky]

Re: the bike helmet thing, a lot of it is generational. No one my age wore helmets as a kid. I'd feel weird wearing one now doing something other than mountain biking.

I should note that was also a thing for me.  I don't recall ever wearing a helmet on a bike when I was a kid. 

[Jim]

Re: the bike helmet thing, a lot of it is generational. No one my age wore helmets as a kid. I'd feel weird wearing one now doing something other than mountain biking.

I feel similarly on this.  My friends and I rode our bikes in all kinds of crazy places and in all kinds of crazy ways and no one had helmets.  I don't bike much now, but do have a helmet but kind of feel silly wearing it when going down a flat, uncrowded bike path.

Now skiing on the other hand, I learned to ski and skied until probably almost 20 years ago without a helmet.  No one had them.  A friend who had a pretty nasty accident convinced me it was worth getting and using one.  And now I can't imaging skiing without one, especially since I'm a pretty aggressive skier and like to head into the trees as much as I can when snow conditions permit.  Also, as a ski instructor, I'm required to wear one at my home mountain if I'm wearing my ski school vest.  Not that I'd ski without it any time.

Of course, the times when I used to bike all over the place without a helmet was the same era when a little league baseball coach thought nothing of piling 15 kids and probably a dog or two in the back of a pickup truck and getting on the highway to take the team out for ice cream after a game.

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding trucks, it is interesting when we visit family in Mexico since piling in the back is no big deal.  We took ten people with us to Chapala during our last visit in a capped F-150.  We passed a bunch of work trucks carrying loads of people in the back on the way.  People would lose their shit if they saw something like that state side nowadays. 

[JayhawkCO]

Regarding trucks, it is interesting when we visit family in Mexico since piling in the back is no big deal.  We took ten people with us to Chapala during our last visit in a capped F-150.  We passed a bunch of work trucks carrying loads of people in the back on the way.  People would lose their shit if they saw something like that state side nowadays.

Similar for me. As kids, we rode in the bed of trucks to go to soccer practice and whatnot. 80's youth, am I right?

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding trucks, it is interesting when we visit family in Mexico since piling in the back is no big deal.  We took ten people with us to Chapala during our last visit in a capped F-150.  We passed a bunch of work trucks carrying loads of people in the back on the way.  People would lose their shit if they saw something like that state side nowadays.

Similar for me. As kids, we rode in the bed of trucks to go to soccer practice and whatnot. 80's youth, am I right?

Yes, born 1982.  I also remember similar minds being prevalent well into the late 1990s.  I took people for rides in the back of my CK during high school all the time. 

[index]

Regarding trucks, it is interesting when we visit family in Mexico since piling in the back is no big deal.  We took ten people with us to Chapala during our last visit in a capped F-150.  We passed a bunch of work trucks carrying loads of people in the back on the way.  People would lose their shit if they saw something like that state side nowadays.

Similar for me. As kids, we rode in the bed of trucks to go to soccer practice and whatnot. 80's youth, am I right?

Yes, born 1982.  I also remember similar minds being prevalent well into the late 1990s.  I took people for rides in the back of my CK during high school all the time.

During my time in Boone before I transferred I had rode to a party with some other people in the back of a pickup truck. Saw others doing it too, so it's not totally dead, although college kids are obviously a different breed.

[jeffandnicole]

I had the same thought about bike helmets: Never wore one as a kid. I bought a bike and helmet a number of years ago; rode the bike once and never took the helmet out of the box.

When I last went ice skating (which was only about the 5th time i skated on ice), I realized I was out there without a helmet and it almost felt illegal, as if somehow the safety industry overlooked this activity. My 2nd time ice skating left me with a nice scar above my eye when I tripped and my forehead hit the ice. Probably should've gone to the ER but it stopped bleeding several hours later. My wife, in her previous skating session, skated at Rockefeller Center. 2 NYPD officers had noticed I was a spectator watching her. She tripped and bounced her head off the ice at one point. Those cops looked at me; I looked at them, and we all went "ooooohhhh".  She quickly got up and continued skating, and was fine.

Last year, after the tornado hit South Jersey, I was volunteering with a random church one day to help clear brush from properties hit by the tornado. As it approached nightfall, we gathered into the back of a windowless, seatless van to go back to the church. Along with the feeling of being kidnapped, it had been quite a number of years since I had ridden in a vehicle without seats, much less seat belts.  It did being back memories of riding in the back of pickups unrestrained.

[Max Rockatansky]

When I used to play hockey all we really had were loose fitting helmets that flew off at the slightest contact.  It feels weird seeing face guards making it all the way to the NHL.  Considering how jacked up my chest had gotten from playing goalie and taking hits from pucks it  amazes me to think they weren't even required equipment for a long time at the NHL level.

[Rothman]

As a Gen Xer, I only wore a bike helmet for longer bike rides.  I biked everywhere before I got my license and did 100 km rides with my uncle and aunt.

Got in a couple of accidents where I was very lucky that I didn't get a head injury.

Later on, as a Mormon missionary, helmets were required.  I was only on a bike for a few months, though.

[GaryV]

80's youth, am I right?

Consider the boomers. I was born in the late 50's. We never had bike helmets. We were allowed to roam the neighborhood freely; just come home when the streetlights came on (so as dusk approached, we didn't look at the streetlights). We didn't have car safety seats for babies or kids - for quite a while we didn't even have seat belts.

It's a wonder any of us survived, I guess.

[Max Rockatansky]

80's youth, am I right?

Consider the boomers. I was born in the late 50's. We never had bike helmets. We were allowed to roam the neighborhood freely; just come home when the streetlights came on (so as dusk approached, we didn't look at the streetlights). We didn't have car safety seats for babies or kids - for quite a while we didn't even have seat belts.

It's a wonder any of us survived, I guess.

Basically that's how it was for me in the 80s and early 90s.  Seatbelts were optional so long as we were in the back seat of the van or Vista Cruiser. 

In fact, doesn't Michigan still not have a rear passenger seat belt law?

[hbelkins]

A cousin of mine is pulling up stakes, and he and his family are moving to Portugal. He gave up his job, I presume his wife is giving up a job as well, and they are selling most all their worldly possessions to make the move. I have no idea if he has employment lined up there or not, but to me that's a very big and risky decision that I would never feel comfortable making.

[JayhawkCO]

A cousin of mine is pulling up stakes, and he and his family are moving to Portugal. He gave up his job, I presume his wife is giving up a job as well, and they are selling most all their worldly possessions to make the move. I have no idea if he has employment lined up there or not, but to me that's a very big and risky decision that I would never feel comfortable making.

Not to make this a political thread, but if certain aspects of this country keep going the way that they seem to be, I am very tempted to do the same in a few years. I work remotely, so could move anywhere in the world that I wanted provided they have a digital nomad visa.

[Rothman]

A cousin of mine is pulling up stakes, and he and his family are moving to Portugal. He gave up his job, I presume his wife is giving up a job as well, and they are selling most all their worldly possessions to make the move. I have no idea if he has employment lined up there or not, but to me that's a very big and risky decision that I would never feel comfortable making.

Not to make this a political thread, but if certain aspects of this country keep going the way that they seem to be, I am very tempted to do the same in a few years. I work remotely, so could move anywhere in the world that I wanted provided they have a digital nomad visa.

MUST MAKE IT A POLITICAL THREAD

[Rothman]

A cousin of mine is pulling up stakes, and he and his family are moving to Portugal. He gave up his job, I presume his wife is giving up a job as well, and they are selling most all their worldly possessions to make the move. I have no idea if he has employment lined up there or not, but to me that's a very big and risky decision that I would never feel comfortable making.

I can see it if they spoke fluent Portuguese and if they keep enough in reserve to make it back if things fail.

But...why Portugal?

[Max Rockatansky]

A cousin of mine is pulling up stakes, and he and his family are moving to Portugal. He gave up his job, I presume his wife is giving up a job as well, and they are selling most all their worldly possessions to make the move. I have no idea if he has employment lined up there or not, but to me that's a very big and risky decision that I would never feel comfortable making.

Not to make this a political thread, but if certain aspects of this country keep going the way that they seem to be, I am very tempted to do the same in a few years. I work remotely, so could move anywhere in the world that I wanted provided they have a digital nomad visa.

My wife and I have talked about retiring down in Mexico.  We have a ways to go, but we like the slower and more laid pace of life.  Fair chance I'll pay to have an extra room built at the family house this next week if the price is still $3,000-$4,000 Pesos like it was in 2020.

[webny99]

... if certain aspects of this country keep going the way that they seem to be, I am very tempted to do the same in a few years. ...

MUST MAKE IT A POLITICAL THREAD

Thats... actually a pretty neutral statement. In the right context I could see pretty much any person saying that exact same thing regardless of where they are on the political spectrum or really any other spectrum. Not that that speaks well of the state of the country either!

[Rothman]

... if certain aspects of this country keep going the way that they seem to be, I am very tempted to do the same in a few years. ...

MUST MAKE IT A POLITICAL THREAD

Thats... actually a pretty neutral statement. In the right context I could see pretty much any person saying that exact same thing regardless of where they are on the political spectrum or really any other spectrum. Not that that speaks well of the state of the country either!

So, where are you moving to?

[webny99]

... if certain aspects of this country keep going the way that they seem to be, I am very tempted to do the same in a few years. ...

MUST MAKE IT A POLITICAL THREAD

Thats... actually a pretty neutral statement. In the right context I could see pretty much any person saying that exact same thing regardless of where they are on the political spectrum or really any other spectrum. Not that that speaks well of the state of the country either!

So, where are you moving to?

Nowhere right now, but the context wasn't there for me to make that statement either. And even then, it was only "tempted", which is a lot different than actually doing it.

[abefroman329]

80's youth, am I right?

Consider the boomers. I was born in the late 50's. We never had bike helmets. We were allowed to roam the neighborhood freely; just come home when the streetlights came on (so as dusk approached, we didn't look at the streetlights). We didn't have car safety seats for babies or kids - for quite a while we didn't even have seat belts.

It's a wonder any of us survived, I guess.

Basically that's how it was for me in the 80s and early 90s.  Seatbelts were optional so long as we were in the back seat of the van or Vista Cruiser. 

In fact, doesn't Michigan still not have a rear passenger seat belt law?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias