Worst control city on an interstate in your state

[tdindy88]

I-90/94 WB should be dual-signed for La Crosse and Minneapolis.  I-39/90/94 could even be triple-signed for Wausau, La Crosse, and Minneapolis.  I don't think one Interstate should be ignored just because it's concurrent with another one.

Nah, ignore Wausau and La Crosse. The largest metro area by far is the Twin Cities and I-90 can just have La Crosse where it splits off. And I-39 North should be Stevens Point IMO, not Wausau.

I-39 should definitely be Wausau, it's a major crossroads in northern Wisconsin.

[kphoger]

Regardless, "hearing" of something doesn't mean you can place it on a map.

Not necessarily, no.  But not having heard of a place pretty much guarantees you can't place it on a map.

[hobsini2]

Or they could look at a map. Long distance drivers aren't going to know where Eau Claire or LaCrosse are either.

I've heard of both Eau Claire and La Crosse but not Tomah. This is from someone well away from Wisconsin.

Tomah is probably used because it is a major Interstate junction (I-90 and I-94). But what about Rochester? That is the third largest city in Minnesota and it is growing fairly rapidly. If anything, I'd rather see signs use "La Crosse, Rochester" .

Rochester and La Crosse at the split is fine.

[Flint1979]

I-90/94 WB should be dual-signed for La Crosse and Minneapolis.  I-39/90/94 could even be triple-signed for Wausau, La Crosse, and Minneapolis.  I don't think one Interstate should be ignored just because it's concurrent with another one.

Nah, ignore Wausau and La Crosse. The largest metro area by far is the Twin Cities and I-90 can just have La Crosse where it splits off. And I-39 North should be Stevens Point IMO, not Wausau.

Yeah but control cities aren't selected based on city size.

[kirbykart]

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

[hobsini2]

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

While those are all factors for a control city, being a place with a major crossroads is as important. Granted, most of us think Limon and Cove Fort are terrible as controls but they still serve a purpose. Tomah, by the way, is a secondary control city. La Crosse and Eau Claire are the primaries. As for Stevens Point, it does have a similar size to Wausau, has a major crossroad (US 10) and has a UW campus. I would say it qualifies well even by your standard Kirby.

[Flint1979]

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

No they are not. Also if a state doesn't do it the way you think that doesn't mean they are doing it wrong. The Mackinac Bridge isn't a city at all and is the control city on NB I-75 north of Saginaw, think you could do better there? I doubt it.

[kphoger]

Yeah but control cities aren't selected based on city size.

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

As I said once before...

Things every roadgeek should know:

The way it's done in your district/state/country isn't necessarily the way it's done elsewhere, and that doesn't make everyone else "wrong".

For some specific examples of this general rule, related to the topic at hand:

Some states, such as Arizona, use a control point map, while others, such as Kansas, have criteria for choosing them.  I don't know that one approach is better than the other, though the latter affords more flexibility.

These are Kansas' criteria for choosing control points off the Interstate system (listed in priority order):

*  County seat within 100 miles.

*  Incorporated city within 100 miles having population greater than 1000.

*  Major highway route.

*  Incorporated city with population less than 1000.

*  Unincorporated community.

Internationally, there are more elaborate versions of these two basic approaches.  Britain, for example, has a hierarchy of primary destinations that appear on signs for the motorways (blue background) and primary routes (green background--"major A roads" is a loose term for this network).  The tiers are primary (Oxford, Southampton), super-primary (London, Leeds), and regional (The NORTH, The NORTH WEST, SCOTLAND).  Designers can choose which to put on signs, but there is an expectation that continuity in signing will be maintained (i.e., once you see a destination on a sign, you should be able to follow subsequent mentions of it on signs until you reach it).  France, on the other hand, has the concept of a signing map (schéma-directeur de signalisation) that shows a network and lists all of the destinations to be signed at each intersection.  Central government (i.e., the folks in Paris) must approve the map that covers the réseau vert ("green network," basically the equivalent of the primary-route network in the UK).

[Flint1979]

These are Michigan's control cities on Interstate's. I think MDOT did a good job choosing the control cities.

I-75: Sault Ste. Marie, St. Ignace, Mackinac Bridge, Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo.
I-94: Port Huron, Detroit, Chicago. Ann Arbor, Jackson, Marshall, Battle Creek and Kalamazoo are all secondary control cities.
I-96: Muskegon, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Detroit.
I-69: Port Huron, Flint, Lansing, Fort Wayne.
I-675: DOWNTOWN Saginaw
I-475: DOWNTOWN Flint, Detroit and Saginaw.
I-375: DOWNTOWN.
I-275: Flint, Toledo (Flint could be the worst one considering I-275 was never finished but if it had been finished Flint would be fine). There however is a sign telling you to follow I-96 west for Flint then US-23 north. So at least MDOT tells you how to get to Flint instead of signing it as a control city and you never getting there thinking wtf?
I-194: DOWNTOWN Battle Creek.
I-496: DOWNTOWN Lansing, Jackson, Detroit.
I-196: Grand Rapids, Holland, Chicago.

Now here is a strange one, not an Interstate but US-127 in Lansing has Flint as a control city along with East Lansing. Now to get to Flint you'd take US-127 to I-69 but why would you have Flint as a control city there when this interchange isn't really that close to I-69?

[GaryV]

Now here is a strange one, not an Interstate but US-127 in Lansing has Flint as a control city along with East Lansing. Now to get to Flint you'd take US-127 to I-69 but why would you have Flint as a control city there when this interchange isn't really that close to I-69?

Left over (from nearly 40 years ago) from when I-69 on the west and north sides of Lansing wasn't complete? From Marshall, you followed I-69, Temp 69, I-96 (east), I-127 (north), and another Temp 69 which actually headed to Flint?

[Flint1979]

Now here is a strange one, not an Interstate but US-127 in Lansing has Flint as a control city along with East Lansing. Now to get to Flint you'd take US-127 to I-69 but why would you have Flint as a control city there when this interchange isn't really that close to I-69?

Left over (from nearly 40 years ago) from when I-69 on the west and north sides of Lansing wasn't complete? From Marshall, you followed I-69, Temp 69, I-96 (east), I-127 (north), and another Temp 69 which actually headed to Flint?

I'm surprised you didn't notice that I forgot I-696.

I-696: Lansing, Port Huron.

Anyway regarding your reply, before I-69 the route between Lansing and Flint was M-78. I guess MDOT should update the sign and change it to Clare instead of Flint. The Temp I-69 that headed to Flint probably was M-78. M-78 now of course is only a fraction of it's former self running between I-69 and M-66 north of I-94.

[Terry Shea]

Now here is a strange one, not an Interstate but US-127 in Lansing has Flint as a control city along with East Lansing. Now to get to Flint you'd take US-127 to I-69 but why would you have Flint as a control city there when this interchange isn't really that close to I-69?

Left over (from nearly 40 years ago) from when I-69 on the west and north sides of Lansing wasn't complete? From Marshall, you followed I-69, Temp 69, I-96 (east), I-127 (north), and another Temp 69 which actually headed to Flint?

I'm surprised you didn't notice that I forgot I-696.

I-696: Lansing, Port Huron.

Anyway regarding your reply, before I-69 the route between Lansing and Flint was M-78. I guess MDOT should update the sign and change it to Clare instead of Flint. The Temp I-69 that headed to Flint probably was M-78. M-78 now of course is only a fraction of it's former self running between I-69 and M-66 north of I-94.

I think this sign predates the freeway being extended to the north of I-69 and US-27 being decommissioned.  US-127 basically ended at I-69, and the only freeway route available was I-69.  Since Flint is closer than Grand Rapids, and fewer people going to Grand Rapids would be likely to be using NB US-127 at that point, they decided to use Flint.

[Flint1979]

Now here is a strange one, not an Interstate but US-127 in Lansing has Flint as a control city along with East Lansing. Now to get to Flint you'd take US-127 to I-69 but why would you have Flint as a control city there when this interchange isn't really that close to I-69?

Left over (from nearly 40 years ago) from when I-69 on the west and north sides of Lansing wasn't complete? From Marshall, you followed I-69, Temp 69, I-96 (east), I-127 (north), and another Temp 69 which actually headed to Flint?

I'm surprised you didn't notice that I forgot I-696.

I-696: Lansing, Port Huron.

Anyway regarding your reply, before I-69 the route between Lansing and Flint was M-78. I guess MDOT should update the sign and change it to Clare instead of Flint. The Temp I-69 that headed to Flint probably was M-78. M-78 now of course is only a fraction of it's former self running between I-69 and M-66 north of I-94.

I think this sign predates the freeway being extended to the north of I-69 and US-27 being decommissioned.  US-127 basically ended at I-69, and the only freeway route available was I-69.  Since Flint is closer than Grand Rapids, and fewer people going to Grand Rapids would be likely to be using NB US-127 at that point, they decided to use Flint.

It probably does but at this point I think it would have been updated. Not sure what they could update I-275 to since it'd just be a random Detroit suburb like Livonia or Novi or Farmington Hills. Grand Rapids wouldn't even be in consideration for control city there since you are going north. Clare is the control city north of Lansing on 127 but I think it should be Mount Pleasant. Clare is the control city only because it's the junction of US-127 and US-10.

[Flint1979]

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

I'd also like to tell you something else. Mount Pleasant is the largest city on US-127 north of Lansing, it is not the control city. Clare is the control city because it's at the junction of two US highways. That is how control cities are determined not by city size and beside the point the states choose the control cities.

[kirbykart]

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

No they are not. Also if a state doesn't do it the way you think that doesn't mean they are doing it wrong. The Mackinac Bridge isn't a city at all and is the control city on NB I-75 north of Saginaw, think you could do better there? I doubt it.

I could do better. St. Ignace (which is already used in some places). Mackinac Bridge is not a control city.

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

I'd also like to tell you something else. Mount Pleasant is the largest city on US-127 north of Lansing, it is not the control city. Clare is the control city because it's at the junction of two US highways. That is how control cities are determined not by city size and beside the point the states choose the control cities.

   The point of control cities is to help people who are not from the area navigate more easily.  Therefore, larger and more recognizable cities should be chosen.

[Terry Shea]

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

I'd also like to tell you something else. Mount Pleasant is the largest city on US-127 north of Lansing, it is not the control city. Clare is the control city because it's at the junction of two US highways. That is how control cities are determined not by city size and beside the point the states choose the control cities.

Mt. Pleasant should definitely be the control city since it has a major university and one of the biggest casinos in North America, not to mention 2 Indian tribes, in addition to being the largest city north of Lansing.

[kphoger]

The point of control cities is to help people who are not from the area navigate more easily.  Therefore, larger and more recognizable cities should be chosen.

I mostly agree with the first part, but the second part is more debatable.  A town at a major highway junction might be a more useful navigation point to out-of-area travelers than a town that just happens to have more people living in it.

[hobsini2]

The point of control cities is to help people who are not from the area navigate more easily.  Therefore, larger and more recognizable cities should be chosen.

I mostly agree with the first part, but the second part is more debatable.  A town at a major highway junction might be a more useful navigation point to out-of-area travelers than a town that just happens to have more people living in it.

Exactly. And let's not forget that it's not just cross country traffic that uses the interstate/freeway system. That's why smaller cities are ok for control cities. That's also why I favor having a primary control and a secondary control on the BGS.

[Flint1979]

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

No they are not. Also if a state doesn't do it the way you think that doesn't mean they are doing it wrong. The Mackinac Bridge isn't a city at all and is the control city on NB I-75 north of Saginaw, think you could do better there? I doubt it.

I could do better. St. Ignace (which is already used in some places). Mackinac Bridge is not a control city.

^Yes they are, by city size, recognition, and relative importance. If your state doesn't select control cities this way, they're doing it wrong.

I'd also like to tell you something else. Mount Pleasant is the largest city on US-127 north of Lansing, it is not the control city. Clare is the control city because it's at the junction of two US highways. That is how control cities are determined not by city size and beside the point the states choose the control cities.

   The point of control cities is to help people who are not from the area navigate more easily.  Therefore, larger and more recognizable cities should be chosen.

The point of control cities is to indicate destinations along the route. And btw, Mackinac Bridge most certainly is a control city.

[Flint1979]

I really don't have to go too far to show where Mackinac Bridge is indeed a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4259605,-83.8906179,3a,25.6y,338.88h,113.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4qxW7-ulwSxF1xM_hIsA0g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7390363,-84.0142302,3a,15y,61.26h,90.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skZbIU1Rf3LHeNJzdWBbMfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[kphoger]

I really don't have to go too far to show where Mackinac Bridge is indeed a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4259605,-83.8906179,3a,25.6y,338.88h,113.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4qxW7-ulwSxF1xM_hIsA0g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7390363,-84.0142302,3a,15y,61.26h,90.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skZbIU1Rf3LHeNJzdWBbMfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Unfortunately...

Interstate Control Cities

75

Miami,  Naples, Tampa,  Lake  City, Valdosta, Macon, Atlanta, Marietta, Chattanooga, Knoxville, Lexington, Cincinnati, Dayton, Toledo, Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Sault Ste Marie

[Flint1979]

I really don't have to go too far to show where Mackinac Bridge is indeed a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4259605,-83.8906179,3a,25.6y,338.88h,113.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4qxW7-ulwSxF1xM_hIsA0g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7390363,-84.0142302,3a,15y,61.26h,90.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skZbIU1Rf3LHeNJzdWBbMfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Unfortunately...

Interstate Control Cities

75

Miami,  Naples, Tampa,  Lake  City, Valdosta, Macon, Atlanta, Marietta, Chattanooga, Knoxville, Lexington, Cincinnati, Dayton, Toledo, Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Sault Ste Marie

Yeah well Mackinac Bridge is what's used north of Saginaw until you get across it, then Sault Ste. Marie is used.

[SEWIGuy]

I really don't have to go too far to show where Mackinac Bridge is indeed a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4259605,-83.8906179,3a,25.6y,338.88h,113.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4qxW7-ulwSxF1xM_hIsA0g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7390363,-84.0142302,3a,15y,61.26h,90.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skZbIU1Rf3LHeNJzdWBbMfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Unfortunately...

Interstate Control Cities

75

Miami,  Naples, Tampa,  Lake  City, Valdosta, Macon, Atlanta, Marietta, Chattanooga, Knoxville, Lexington, Cincinnati, Dayton, Toledo, Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Sault Ste Marie

Yeah well Mackinac Bridge is what's used north of Saginaw until you get across it, then Sault Ste. Marie is used.

Case in point.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1347733,-84.1289949,3a,75y,218.91h,71.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk8NOvR1x9SfwFtgM27ZDOQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Flint1979]

I really don't have to go too far to show where Mackinac Bridge is indeed a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4259605,-83.8906179,3a,25.6y,338.88h,113.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4qxW7-ulwSxF1xM_hIsA0g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7390363,-84.0142302,3a,15y,61.26h,90.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skZbIU1Rf3LHeNJzdWBbMfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Unfortunately...

Interstate Control Cities

75

Miami,  Naples, Tampa,  Lake  City, Valdosta, Macon, Atlanta, Marietta, Chattanooga, Knoxville, Lexington, Cincinnati, Dayton, Toledo, Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Sault Ste Marie

Yeah well Mackinac Bridge is what's used north of Saginaw until you get across it, then Sault Ste. Marie is used.

Case in point.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1347733,-84.1289949,3a,75y,218.91h,71.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk8NOvR1x9SfwFtgM27ZDOQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Ahhh the south end of M-33 I just passed through there like two days ago. Exit 202 is pretty much where Up North Michigan begins on I-75.

[Flint1979]

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.8570045,-84.7323209,3a,18.8y,80.16h,97.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxOc7UZIu_4-YLsGq1YXVwQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192