The Wildfires thread

[roadman65]

I heard that some of the fire was caused by electrical wires falling on trees during high winds.

I feel for the people on Maui. Very much destruction there. Cars burned on the streets even.

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much.  There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire. 

I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340.  Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire. 

[roadman65]

Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.

Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.

[Max Rockatansky]

I would think that there will be a push for CR 340 (Kahekili Highway) to be taken back into the state highway system and widened to two lanes as an alternative evacuation route.  My understanding is the current surfacing is a relatively recent improvement and it used to be on par with the CR 31 portions of Piilani Highway. 

[kalvado]

Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.

Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.

On the other hand, just few feet into the water would save a person from the fire. Belongings... Not so much. Kids and pets as well.

[roadman65]

Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.

Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.

On the other hand, just few feet into the water would save a person from the fire. Belongings... Not so much. Kids and pets as well.

Panic is why people won't go into the ocean. We as humans lose sense of reality when confronted by danger. 

Why do you think people get lost in undertows in the sea? Cause they want to try to swim ashore as the panic makes them forget that in the case of rip currents, you are to break free by swimming parallel to shore being those specific currents aren't so wide.

[PColumbus73]

Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much.  There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire. 

I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340.  Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire. 

If we are talking about evacuating the town, the Lahaina Bypass would only do so much since HI 30 is the only road to the rest of the island. HI 30 is confined by geography too with the ocean on one side and the steep West Maui Mountains on the other. It's like NC 12 on the Outer Banks in terms of the geographic challenges.

When my dad was stationed in Hawaii, we spent some time in Lahaina around 2003. It's sad to see the town destroyed, and in one night is shocking.

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much.  There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire. 

I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340.  Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire. 

If we are talking about evacuating the town, the Lahaina Bypass would only do so much since HI 30 is the only road to the rest of the island. HI 30 is confined by geography too with the ocean on one side and the steep West Maui Mountains on the other. It's like NC 12 on the Outer Banks in terms of the geographic challenges.

When my dad was stationed in Hawaii, we spent some time in Lahaina around 2003. It's sad to see the town destroyed, and in one night is shocking.

That's not quite what I'm saying.  I'm saying HI 30 is the only practical road to the rest of the island and that CR 340 exists presently as the impractical alternative.  I didn't see anything along CR 340 that suggests it couldn't be widened fully to standard two lane width during my recent visit.  Certainly HI 30/HI 3000 would still be better option, but why not put some money finally into modernizing CR 340?

[PColumbus73]

Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much.  There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire. 

I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340.  Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire. 

If we are talking about evacuating the town, the Lahaina Bypass would only do so much since HI 30 is the only road to the rest of the island. HI 30 is confined by geography too with the ocean on one side and the steep West Maui Mountains on the other. It's like NC 12 on the Outer Banks in terms of the geographic challenges.

When my dad was stationed in Hawaii, we spent some time in Lahaina around 2003. It's sad to see the town destroyed, and in one night is shocking.

That's not quite what I'm saying.  I'm saying HI 30 is the only practical road to the rest of the island and that CR 340 exists presently as the impractical alternative.  I didn't see anything along CR 340 that suggests it couldn't be widened fully to standard two lane width during my recent visit.  Certainly HI 30/HI 3000 would still be better option, but why not put some money finally into modernizing CR 340?

Short answer would probably be the engineering difficulty. It would be like straightening the Hana Highway.

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much.  There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire. 

I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340.  Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire. 

If we are talking about evacuating the town, the Lahaina Bypass would only do so much since HI 30 is the only road to the rest of the island. HI 30 is confined by geography too with the ocean on one side and the steep West Maui Mountains on the other. It's like NC 12 on the Outer Banks in terms of the geographic challenges.

When my dad was stationed in Hawaii, we spent some time in Lahaina around 2003. It's sad to see the town destroyed, and in one night is shocking.

That's not quite what I'm saying.  I'm saying HI 30 is the only practical road to the rest of the island and that CR 340 exists presently as the impractical alternative.  I didn't see anything along CR 340 that suggests it couldn't be widened fully to standard two lane width during my recent visit.  Certainly HI 30/HI 3000 would still be better option, but why not put some money finally into modernizing CR 340?

Short answer would probably be the engineering difficulty. It would be like straightening the Hana Highway.

I'm not even suggesting that.  I'm specifically talking about widening the existing CR 340 roadway and alignment to ease the ability of traffic to flow two-ways (two lanes, 18-24 feet in width.  The HI 340 portions certainly suggest it feasible and there are way less functionally obsolete bridges to contend with compared to Hana Highway.

[Scott5114]

Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.

Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.

On the other hand, just few feet into the water would save a person from the fire. Belongings... Not so much. Kids and pets as well.

Panic is why people won't go into the ocean. We as humans lose sense of reality when confronted by danger. 

Smoke inhalation..............

[jeffandnicole]

Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.

Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.

On the other hand, just few feet into the water would save a person from the fire. Belongings... Not so much. Kids and pets as well.

Unless motorized boats are catching on fire, release fuel and oil onto the ocean.

Even good swimmers, in an ocean, will tire out fairly quickly. Most people can't tread water for a minute in a calm pool, much less a salty, possibly rough ocean. And if the water is deeper than you are up to shoulder height, which is only 4 or 4.5 feet, you're not going to be able to tread water waiting out a fire.

[bing101]

https://www.khon2.com/hawaii-fires/36-fatalities-involved-in-lahaina-wildfires/


Update the death toll is reported to be at 93 for Maui Wildfires.

[bing101]

How about this one I know every time California is preparing for fire season there are prevention and reduction regulations to decrease the escalation of fires in the state. In Hawaii that is unknown to residents.

https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements


https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/


https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/

[jeffandnicole]

How about this one I know every time California is preparing for fire season there are prevention and reduction regulations to decrease the escalation of fires in the state. In Hawaii that is unknown to residents.

https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements


https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/


https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/

They try, but there's only so much that can be done. Take a look at Paradise, CA.

[Max Rockatansky]

FWIW a brush fire coupled by a nearby hurricane fanning the flames doesn't really seem to be something any emergency manager could have anticipated for Maui.

[kalvado]

How about this one I know every time California is preparing for fire season there are prevention and reduction regulations to decrease the escalation of fires in the state. In Hawaii that is unknown to residents.

https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements


https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/


https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/

They try, but there's only so much that can be done. Take a look at Paradise, CA.

What really surprises me - although I see it too often to be really surprised anymore - is how fire  happily propagates from one building to the other. In my world, that means fire codes are either not followed or just irrelevant to real life.
Multiple local examples; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Cohoes_fire or https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Firefighters-battle-a-smoky-blaze-in-Albany-13857271.php
No hurricanes involved in either case.

[Ted$8roadFan]

How about this one I know every time California is preparing for fire season there are prevention and reduction regulations to decrease the escalation of fires in the state. In Hawaii that is unknown to residents.

https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements


https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/


https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/

They try, but there's only so much that can be done. Take a look at Paradise, CA.

What really surprises me - although I see it too often to be really surprised anymore - is how fire  happily propagates from one building to the other. In my world, that means fire codes are either not followed or just irrelevant to real life.
Multiple local examples; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Cohoes_fire or https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Firefighters-battle-a-smoky-blaze-in-Albany-13857271.php
No hurricanes involved in either case.

Does the age of the building stock have anything to do with fire risk? There are lots of places with older housing that was built long before current building/fire codes to which compliance would be quite difficult or expensive.

[kalvado]

They try, but there's only so much that can be done. Take a look at Paradise, CA.

What really surprises me - although I see it too often to be really surprised anymore - is how fire  happily propagates from one building to the other. In my world, that means fire codes are either not followed or just irrelevant to real life.
Multiple local examples; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Cohoes_fire or https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Firefighters-battle-a-smoky-blaze-in-Albany-13857271.php
No hurricanes involved in either case.

Does the age of the building stock have anything to do with fire risk? There are lots of places with older housing that was built long before current building/fire codes to which compliance would be quite difficult or expensive.

Sure that's a part of the problem. Especially when slums and ruins are allowed to sit and rot under "historic preservation" banner.
Probably dealing with massive fire aftermath is a cheaper option after all.

[Max Rockatansky]

Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with.  The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse.  Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance.  Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.

[kalvado]

Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with.  The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse.  Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance.  Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.

And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?

[roadman65]

Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with.  The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse.  Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance.  Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.

And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?

Mrs. O' Leary's cow once kicked a bucket, that eventually burned Chicago.   

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.

Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with.  The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse.  Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance.  Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.

And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?

They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s.  For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past.  We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards.  Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there.  Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.

[kalvado]

^^^

Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.

Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with.  The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse.  Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance.  Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.

And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?

They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s.  For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past.  We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards.  Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there.  Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.

And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.

Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with.  The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse.  Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance.  Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.

And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?

They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s.  For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past.  We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards.  Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there.  Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.

And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?

In Paradise I'd venture a guess the risk level was probably too great for many to come back or for insurance companies to pay for reconstruction.  In that case all that development backed up to overgrown dry forest was asking for trouble eventually. 

Laihaina from a climate perspective is fairly semi-arid given it is in the rain shadow of the West Maui Mountains.  I couldn't really comment on the historic amount of fires have occurred in the area because I plain don't know how frequent they are.  Having a modern highway in the path of the fire certainly didn't act like a break though given the fire was being pushed by 60 MPH gusts.  My first reaction is to chalk this up mostly to a series of unforeseeable events all converging at once to create a freak occurrence disaster.