The universe according to MMM

[kalvado]

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 27, 2023, 09:38:17 PM
If I trying to go exactly 75 mph, it harder to keep the needle exactly on a 5 mph smaller mark than to hit the cruise control once the digital number reads 75
Not really... I'm frequently able to maintain a 5 mph interval speed, 70, 75, 80 mph, etc. on the dot with just my foot on the gas petal... then this incredible thing called cruise control also exists that will hold the speed.

And if you want to decrease by +1 or -1, click the up and down button on your steering wheel...

It's not about how easy it is to maintain the speed, it's about knowing that you are maintaining the actual speed you want to maintain. And even with cruise control, it doesn't stay exactly on the speed, there's a 2-3 mph temporary variance when it hits a hill for example. It doesn't perfectly maintain the exact same speed continuously. It's dangerous to not know how fast you are going due to faulty car equipment or sloppy cruise control.

Why is it dangerous? you should always judge your safe speed from the car's behavior, not from formal numbers.  Most cars are rigged to go a bit slower than speedometer to avoid ticketing issues. So where is the danger? Arriving 10 minutes past your planned time is NOT dangerous.

[SectorZ]

At some point Fritz figured out how to quote things probably. Here's hoping M³ will soon as well.

[MultiMillionMiler]

I have a right to know exactly how fast I am going to avoid getting a ticket, for example. Deliberately making a car's actual speed and speedometer vary is ridiculous and those manufacturers should be sued and the cars deemed not street legal. What's the point in speedometers then? Might as well remove them if you should only judge your cars sage speed by its handling/road conditions. And if what you said is true, I could think I am going exactly the speed limitand it turns out I am actually going 1-2 mph under it, leaving me liable for a ticket for impeding the flow of traffic. That could also deceive people into thinking a higher speed is safer even in cases where it isn't, due to it feeling slower because you aren't actually going that fast.

[roadman65]

This past half hour is been about Triple M in the recent posts.

[kalvado]

I have a right to know exactly how fast I am going to avoid getting a ticket, for example. Deliberately making a car's actual speed and speedometer vary is ridiculous and those manufacturers should be sued and the cars deemed not street legal. What's the point in speedometers then? Might as well remove them if you should only judge your cars sage speed by its handling/road conditions. And if what you said is true, I could think I am going exactly the speed limitand it turns out I am actually going 1-2 mph under it, leaving me liable for a ticket for impeding the flow of traffic. That could also deceive people into thinking a higher speed is safer even in cases where it isn't, due to it feeling slower because you aren't actually going that fast.

There was a lawsuit Honda settled. They gave extra 5% to warranty mileage and few similar things. They should also demand speeding tickets uncharged to offset those costs IMHO.
Point is you car actual speed is difficult to measure as numbers would depend on weather among other things. GPS speedometer may be more accurate on a straight road. Not in tunnels, apparently. And there is no constitutional amendment about knowing your speed.
I don't think there is any jurisdiction which will fine you for speed limit-5. Feel free to bring an example.   

[MultiMillionMiler]

Nevada passed a law a few years ago that's its illegal to drive under the speed limit in the left lane (keeping in mind that the left lane means anything other than the right lane on those roads). People have gotten fined for going as little as 2 under the speed limit. And BTW, what is this left.lane obsession among drivers. On 2 lane roads does it really matter what lane you drive in? On 3 lane roads, do they really expect all of traffic to use only 2 of the 3 lanes provided, do you know how much congestion that would cause? Besides do they expect you to literally change back and forth between the middle and left lanes every single time you pass slower cars, rather than just cruising in the left lane for a while when you're not actually impeding traffic?

[Max Rockatansky]

Nevada passed a law a few years ago that's its illegal to drive under the speed limit in the left lane (keeping in mind that the left lane means anything other than the right lane on those roads). People have gotten fined for going as little as 2 under the speed limit. And BTW, what is this left.lane obsession among drivers. On 2 lane roads does it really matter what lane you drive in? On 3 lane roads, do they really expect all of traffic to use only 2 of the 3 lanes provided, do you know how much congestion that would cause? Besides do they expect you to literally change back and forth between the middle and left lanes every single time you pass slower cars, rather than just cruising in the left lane for a while when you're not actually impeding traffic?

Citation needed

[kalvado]

Nevada passed a law a few years ago that's its illegal to drive under the speed limit in the left lane (keeping in mind that the left lane means anything other than the right lane on those roads). People have gotten fined for going as little as 2 under the speed limit. And BTW, what is this left.lane obsession among drivers. On 2 lane roads does it really matter what lane you drive in? On 3 lane roads, do they really expect all of traffic to use only 2 of the 3 lanes provided, do you know how much congestion that would cause? Besides do they expect you to literally change back and forth between the middle and left lanes every single time you pass slower cars, rather than just cruising in the left lane for a while when you're not actually impeding traffic?

Good job, trolly, now you have a whole new fountain of ugly responses for the KREP! You may have a candy and a penny for this one!

[MultiMillionMiler]

Nevada passed a law a few years ago that's its illegal to drive under the speed limit in the left lane (keeping in mind that the left lane means anything other than the right lane on those roads). People have gotten fined for going as little as 2 under the speed limit. And BTW, what is this left.lane obsession among drivers. On 2 lane roads does it really matter what lane you drive in? On 3 lane roads, do they really expect all of traffic to use only 2 of the 3 lanes provided, do you know how much congestion that would cause? Besides do they expect you to literally change back and forth between the middle and left lanes every single time you pass slower cars, rather than just cruising in the left lane for a while when you're not actually impeding traffic?

Citation needed

https://www.wbaltv.com/article/woman-gets-ticket-for-going-2-mph-under-speed-limit/7079513

To be fair it says it was thrown out in court, but give me a break. That cop is probably the same type of person to give a ticket for going 2 mph OVER the limit in the same lane. Hope you have a good speedometer.

[Max Rockatansky]

Nevada passed a law a few years ago that's its illegal to drive under the speed limit in the left lane (keeping in mind that the left lane means anything other than the right lane on those roads). People have gotten fined for going as little as 2 under the speed limit. And BTW, what is this left.lane obsession among drivers. On 2 lane roads does it really matter what lane you drive in? On 3 lane roads, do they really expect all of traffic to use only 2 of the 3 lanes provided, do you know how much congestion that would cause? Besides do they expect you to literally change back and forth between the middle and left lanes every single time you pass slower cars, rather than just cruising in the left lane for a while when you're not actually impeding traffic?

Citation needed

https://www.wbaltv.com/article/woman-gets-ticket-for-going-2-mph-under-speed-limit/7079513

To be fair it says it was thrown out in court, but give me a break. That cop is probably the same type of person to give a ticket for going 2 mph OVER the limit in the same lane. Hope you have a good speedometer.

So if it was thrown out then what are you concerned about?  What was the fine schedule for the infraction?  Did it even include license points?  Also, your link is from Maryland and not Nevada.

[kalvado]

Nevada passed a law a few years ago that's its illegal to drive under the speed limit in the left lane (keeping in mind that the left lane means anything other than the right lane on those roads). People have gotten fined for going as little as 2 under the speed limit. And BTW, what is this left.lane obsession among drivers. On 2 lane roads does it really matter what lane you drive in? On 3 lane roads, do they really expect all of traffic to use only 2 of the 3 lanes provided, do you know how much congestion that would cause? Besides do they expect you to literally change back and forth between the middle and left lanes every single time you pass slower cars, rather than just cruising in the left lane for a while when you're not actually impeding traffic?

Citation needed

https://www.wbaltv.com/article/woman-gets-ticket-for-going-2-mph-under-speed-limit/7079513

To be fair it says it was thrown out in court, but give me a break. That cop is probably the same type of person to give a ticket for going 2 mph OVER the limit in the same lane. Hope you have a good speedometer.

So if it was thrown out then what are you concerned about?  What was the fine schedule for the infraction?  Did it even include license points?

Even being pulled over and let go is a hassle...
I bet that was a pretext stop, though. 
PS: sorry - messed up quoting first time.

[MultiMillionMiler]

You asked for a Citation for what was in bold, but here's one for the left lane law:

[Max Rockatansky]

You asked for a Citation for what was in bold, but here's one for the left lane law:

I'm aware of the law in Nevada.  What I asked you to find is an example where it was used, you came up with an example from Maryland. 

Why are you so concerned traffic laws in Nevada?  As far as I'm aware you never have expressed interest in even visiting the state.  If a traffic cop really wants to pull you over at the end of the day they'll find a way to do, it doesn't necessarily need to be speed related.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Dude, Nevada is one of the states I might move to.

The 2 mph one had nothing to do with Nevada, that was a separate case. The Nevada one is more ridiculous though because it is saying you have to drive exactly the speed limit in the lane. You see, I told you I was right that speed limits mean you have to drive exactly at them, not below or above, unless a separate minimum speed is otherwise posted.

[Max Rockatansky]

related.

What's I've noticed about your post trends is that you clearly view the world in a black and white objective narrative when it comes to things like traffic laws.  I find this fascinating that it seemingly is beyond your comprehension that most of these laws have grey areas and enforcement tends to fall into the grey area as well.

So if I have this right, you are afraid if you "might"  move to Nevada and that some traffic officer is going to hunt you down for going a nominal speed below the posted limit?

[kalvado]

Dude, Nevada is one of the states I might move to.

The 2 mph one had nothing to do with Nevada, that was a separate case. The Nevada one is more ridiculous though because it is saying you have to drive exactly the speed limit in the lane. You see, I told you I was right that speed limits mean you have to drive exactly at them, not below or above, unless a separate minimum speed is otherwise posted.

Again the case of those in power having a tripping hazard IQ level. Still better than Indiana pi=3.0 bill.

[kalvado]

related.

What's I've noticed about your post trends is that you clearly view the world in a black and white objective narrative when it comes to things like traffic laws.  I find this fascinating that it seemingly is beyond your comprehension that most of these laws have grey areas and enforcement tends to fall into the grey area as well.

So if I have this right, you are afraid if you "might"  move to Nevada and that some traffic officer is going to hunt you down for going a nominal speed below the posted limit?

Trolling aside, a great example of impossible law which should get thrown out in court is brought up. A quote of federal standard requiring certain speedometer accuracy should close the case.
Best thing there is all those representatives voting for the law. I assume it was on page 1234 of a must-pass omnibus budget bill, though, so hard to blame them. So much for democracy in action.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Laws have Grey areas? Interesting because I have never seen a Grey sign right below a white speed limit sign with some range of numbers above the speed limit that are enforcement "Grey areas". The only other speed limit signs I've seen are night ones which have the colors inverted, so yes, speed limits literally are black and white laws. Not getting a ticket for 8 mph over is usually just a really good luck of the draw, if you happen to get an extremely nice cop who pulls you over who's about to get off his shift anyway and highway conditions are fantastic. Otherwise, in most states in this country, once you go more than 4 mph over, as soon as you cross the beam of a radar gun, that cop is going to put the pedal to the metal to catch up to you, get right up your cars derriere, and light you up, and before you even process what's happening, you'll be getting your ticket printed out in the squad car.

[MultiMillionMiler]

If I trying to go exactly 75 mph, it harder to keep the needle exactly on a 5 mph smaller mark than to hit the cruise control once the digital number reads 75

If I want to drive exactly 75 mph, here's what I do:  accelerate until the needle touches the 75 tick mark, then push the cruise control button.  How is that any different than accelerating until the digital readout says 75, then pushing the cruise control button?

I have a right to know exactly how fast I am going

No, you don't.

no reason a speedometer can't be accurate to .1 mph.

There's no reason a speedometer needs to be accurate to .1 mph.  Have you ever heard of anyone being issued a ticket for going .1 mph over the limit?  Nope, you haven't.  Good enough is good enough.

You can't go an exact speed limit with a digital speedometer, there are no decimals!

Agreed.  Pushing aside the fact that speedometers can be slightly inaccurate due to tire size and wear and whatnot, let's imagine that they were completely accurate.  If I want to go just a hair under 75 mph, like 74¾ mph, then I can simply adjust my cruise control until the right edge of the needle barely grazes the 75 tick mark.  Or if I want to just a hair over, like 75¼ mph, then I can set it to where the left edge of the needle barely grazes the tick mark.  With a digital speedometer, you have no idea if it's set to just above or just below your target speed.

All state law makers should have to drive the entire length of whatever stretch of road they are contemplating raising the speed limit, at the proposed speed limit, to help them decide. When they are sick of crawling at 75 mph in the middle of nowhere on a wide open straight highway, they may agree to an 80 or 90 mph speed limit.

I'm going to blow your mind.  Ready?

State lawmakers know how to drive.  Many of them spent countless miles driving on the campaign trail before they ended up in their current office.  Many of them drive on family vacations, drive to different towns as part of their job, etc.  And guess what?  Some of them still arrive at different conclusions than you.

Do you really imagine that California State Assemblymen have never driven from, say, Sacramento to San Francisco or Los Angeles?  Of course they have!  That doesn't mean they have all come to the conclusion that speed limits should be raised.  In fact, I'm sure some of them would like them to be lowered.

Yeah, but there's the issue of engaging the cruise control while simultaneously taking your foot off the gas. Sometimes the car automatically wobbles between a couple mph before the cruise control fully engages. Unless you keep the precise pressure on the gas pedal until after the cruise control engages, you have no guarantee that the cruise is actually going the speed you intend to set it at. I've set it at 75, and then 2 minutes later it drops to 74 for a second, indicating it wasn't a true 75 mph. Also, just the act of the cruise control engaging may alter the pressure in the gas pedal, throwing off your pressure perception on it and end up altering the speed at the moment the cruise control engages. Therefore, it is hard to precisely set the cruise control since just the act of setting it can slightly alter the cars speed in the moment.

Also I doubt state law makers are going to be focusing on the road when they are thinking of their upcoming conference or whatever in the other city they are driving to. That's if they are even driving at all and not being shouferred. A rich congressman or legislator is not going to care about the efficiency of a highway. The average commuter who has to work a 9 to 5 and take that route daily, will care.

[SectorZ]

Laws have Grey areas? Interesting because I have never seen a Grey sign right below a white speed limit sign with some range of numbers above the speed limit that are enforcement "Grey areas". The only other speed limit signs I've seen are night ones which have the colors inverted, so yes, speed limits literally are black and white laws. Not getting a ticket for 8 mph over is usually just a really good luck of the draw, if you happen to get an extremely nice cop who pulls you over who's about to get off his shift anyway and highway conditions are fantastic. Otherwise, in most states in this country, once you go more than 4 mph over, as soon as you cross the beam of a radar gun, that cop is going to put the pedal to the metal to catch up to you, get right up your cars derriere, and light you up, and before you even process what's happening, you'll be getting your ticket printed out in the squad car.

I've been pulled over for 11 over and 10 over and gotten warnings. Also gotten tickets but knock on wood not for 16 years, with one of those two warnings coming 11 years ago.

I would imagine, that since you come to every human interaction with high-heat, you would not be very good at interacting with a cop in a traffic stop and thus would get a ticket every time. Being pulled over for speeding is the place where you take off and hide your know-it-all hat during the interaction.

The laws are black and white, the enforcement of those laws is not. Get pulled over while driving with a radar detector, you aren't getting a warning, even in the majority of states where they are legal.

Look at it this way, you get arrested for a crime and at some point a DA decides whether to charge you for that crime or not. With a civil violation traffic stop, the cop on site tends to have the authority to be the DA in that instance. I know I'm oversimplifying it, but that's how it functions.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Dude, did you read my worst traffic warnings thread. The OP is my account of getting only a warning for 23 mph over, 73 in a 50 on the Belt Parkway in NYC, I know how to interact with cops lol. Literally the NYS DMV manual says you are never allowed to exceed the speed limit even in emergency situations. As ludicrous as that sounds, it does imply that even if a Tsunami was heading straight toward Long Island from the Rhode Island Sound, as soon as you cross 60 mph heading westbound on the 55 mph speed limited L.I.E, a cop will emerge and pull you over, and sit there typing out the ticket even as the wave is engulfing both cars and the ticket will be washed away anyway.

[kalvado]

Dude, did you read my worst traffic warnings thread. The OP is my account of getting only a warning for 23 mph over, 73 in a 50 on the Belt Parkway in NYC, I know how to interact with cops lol. Literally the NYS DMV manual says you are never allowed to exceed the speed limit even in emergency situations. As ludicrous as that sounds, it does imply that even if a Tsunami was heading straight toward Long Island from the Rhode Island Sound, as soon as you cross 60 mph heading westbound on the 55 mph speed limited L.I.E, a cop will emerge and pull you over, and sit there typing out the ticket even as the wave is engulfing both cars and the ticket will be washed away anyway.

A limit is the limit. What's the point of limit if it can be bent over by anyone?
With that, unrealistic speed limits - and unspoken expectations about those limits - is the current unwritten agreement. Again, so much for the democratic procedures.

[roadman65]

Dude, did you read my worst traffic warnings thread. The OP is my account of getting only a warning for 23 mph over, 73 in a 50 on the Belt Parkway in NYC, I know how to interact with cops lol. Literally the NYS DMV manual says you are never allowed to exceed the speed limit even in emergency situations. As ludicrous as that sounds, it does imply that even if a Tsunami was heading straight toward Long Island from the Rhode Island Sound, as soon as you cross 60 mph heading westbound on the 55 mph speed limited L.I.E, a cop will emerge and pull you over, and sit there typing out the ticket even as the wave is engulfing both cars and the ticket will be washed away anyway.

You take everything so literal.

Use common sense.

Plus you would never ever be able outrun a Tsunami anyway.  There wouldn't be time for you, so kiss your miserable life goodbye.

[hotdogPi]

While I haven't looked at the laws myself, I'm reminded of this post by kphoger:

Does Texas permit passing in the shoulder when vehicles are presenting an obstruction in the primary lane of travel? My earlier assertion was simply that you may pass on the right (if the roadway is wide enough to permit such a maneuver), if there is enough room to do so. The car being passed on the right did not have to be turning. Just traveling below the speed limit.

The only things similar to the 'presenting an obstruction' idea are these:

An operator may drive on an improved shoulder to the right of the main traveled portion of a roadway if that operation is necessary and may be done safely, but only:

(4) to pass another vehicle that is ... disabled ...

(7) to avoid a collision.

So, no, a driver merely going a bit slower than you are doesn't count.

Sec. 545.057 does allow you to pass on the right (but not the shoulder) on a one-way road as long as the road is wide enough, but that's still not the situation anyone is describing here.

There might be something in the law itself (but not in the driver's manual) that provides an exception for avoiding a collision.

[Flint1979]

On Michigan freeways I've done 80 past a cop in a 70 zone and had nothing happen. Traffic generally moves at about 80-85 mph on the freeways.