The universe according to MMM

[kalvado]

Eugenics is deliberately desining babies the way you want. I think that's ridiculous. I'm saying the number of babies coming out should be lower, period, certainly not that rich people should be able to choose the gender or hair/eye color of their offspring. Deleting harmful mental illness/physical illness generating genes, sure, but that's it. Nothing beyond that.

Deleting harmful mental illness/physical fitness genes is very much on brand with traditional fascist beliefs.

On the other hand, there are definitely legitimate medical services to test an unborn child for certain problems, and that can be the reason for abortion.
Down syndrome is one such test. Osteogenesis imperfect is another one, especially if parents have those disorders themselves. There is probably more.
The purpose of those tests is not to ban a woman from having kids, but to give her another chance to give birth to a healthy kid.
It is a delicate question, sure, but many parents don't want their kids to inherit their health problems.

Yes, to be clear I understand the concern in those circumstances is legitimate. I also understand why someone may conclude aborting the pregnancy as being the most viable option.

Just a bit of tangential rant about what is good and what is bad.
Once upon a time I happened to be at the talk of a guy from St. Jude. They were using crisper (greatest invention of 21st century, if you ask me) to break certain genes in rats to simulate a certain condition - Troyer syndrome I believe, or something similar.
It is all very scientific, how certain genes affect certain protein synthesis and accumulation... ANd then he shows a video of a cage filled with rats paralyzed below waist and crawling on front paws. Entire audience shocked.
Guy enjoys the view for a moment and then says "shocking, meh? We have a whole department at St. Jude attending kids with such conditions"...  I guess dealing with that changes the perception of good and bad...

[jeffandnicole]

@roadgeekteen, fine, but then ALL adult privileges should be available at age 18, none should have to wait until 21. Including, drinking, gambling, renting hotel rooms, interstate trucking, accessing/opening a bank account, car insurance rates dropping to normal, running for political positions..etc

I agree for the most part.

I don't disagree with any of that from the perspective of government authority.  However, things like rental car agencies not renting to people under 25 is a private business decision.

Car Insurance rates as well.  Insurance companies look at statistics, and statistics show that people under the age of 25 are more likely to be involved in a crash.  If insurance companies were able to connect the dots and looked at social media and forums for things like what MMM writes, his insurance rates would be sky high as he widely documents he is unable to handle curves on highways.  That would be where being a troll would bite him in the ass.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Alright, how about this: A universal bill of rights specifically for people under the age of 21:

1. Ratification of the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child in the US.

2. Minimum age of adult criminal responsibility set at age 21 without exceptions

3. Child Marriage Banned (its just a legalized excuse to get around age of consent laws)

4.Remove the requirement for parental consent/minimum age limits to receive (or refuse) medical care/psychiatric treatment/contraception/prescription medication/surgery (too many states have laws that allow parents to refuse kids medical care against their will for personal belief/religious reasons)

5. Criminalize Corporal Punishment of children/minors, classifying it as felony/misdemeanor assault just as one would be charged for doing the same thing to an adult.

6. Mandate that all scheduling in society, in terms of work/school...etc, the ability to get full night sleeps is prioritized for people under the age of 21, due to the increased need for sleep for continuing brain development. In other words, companies would be required to give hour preferences to people under the age of 21 under the law.

7. Make any form of Child Abuse, not just sexual, a non-expungeable criminal offense on people's permanent records.

8. Ban cousin marriage, it's unbelievable that it is still allowed in some states, it's extremely selfish to risk genetic problems in offspring at any level that are avoidable. Things like drinking while pregnant should also be criminalized.

9. Lower the minimum compulsory education requirement to 10th grade, with the exception of math and science, and the high school drop out age from 16 to 15.

10. Enshrine a mandatory minimum family financial support statute, similar to the chart I posted earlier, into federal law, and lower the minimum age to access a custodial bank account from 21 to 15.

Some of these things are good ideas, but adulthood begins at 18, not 21.

Yep.  If you want to insist Adulthood begins at 21, then we should take the right to vote away from children between 18 & 20.  And since they're children, it's probably unsafe for them to drive, so take away their ability to drive until they're 21.  Maybe take away their ability to access a gun until they're 21 also.  That includes hunting.  Also, they can't enter into contracts as kids, so they won't be able to own a house or car or rent anything by themselves, so it will be prohibited they live on their own until they're 21.  Numbers 9 and 10 should be the opposite:  Since they're kids, it's mandatory they remain in school until they're 21.  They can't have their own bank account until they're 21 either.

It's absurdly hypocritical that society claims kids are too young when they want privileges, but is fine with claiming they are old enough to know what they are doing when society wants to punish them. So they have no rights of an adult, but can get punished as such. My point being that the ages for all rights/privileges should be younger than ages that they could legally be put in jail. And none of what you suggested would help, it would only encourage kids doing those things illegally. If a 14 year old can be charged as an adult for a crime, then they should be able to drive, vote, live alone, enter contracts, gamble, obtain medical care, choose whether to work or be in school..etc, and most of those things you mentioned are already 21, or were only recently lowered to 18, that's the issue.

[MultiMillionMiler]

@roadgeekteen, fine, but then ALL adult privileges should be available at age 18, none should have to wait until 21. Including, drinking, gambling, renting hotel rooms, interstate trucking, accessing/opening a bank account, car insurance rates dropping to normal, running for political positions..etc

I agree for the most part.

I don't disagree with any of that from the perspective of government authority.  However, things like rental car agencies not renting to people under 25 is a private business decision.

Car Insurance rates as well.  Insurance companies look at statistics, and statistics show that people under the age of 25 are more likely to be involved in a crash.  If insurance companies were able to connect the dots and looked at social media and forums for things like what MMM writes, his insurance rates would be sky high as he widely documents he is unable to handle curves on highways.  That would be where being a troll would bite him in the ass.

Well that would be an extreme 1st amendment violation/breach of privacy/Fascism. The only people that have a right to make a decision about people on social media forums would be the moderators/administrators of that forum. Also, when moving violations bump up insurance rates for example, the offense has to be witnessed by an officer themselves, to be convicted (speed cameras for example don't apply because they don't affect points/insurance). I can post 10x a day that I drive 200 mph everywhere, and that would have no bearing on car insurance, nor could I receive a ticket through the mail for admitting something like that online. And if that happened, we would simply cancel our insurance plans and take our chances of getting pulled over. One private business cannot affect the decisions of another private administration.

Edit: I also want to add that the under 25 = higher crashes is the same flawed logic that's used to set artificially low speed limits on freeways. One age limit I would actually support raising is the alcohol limit, which is more harmful than Marijuana, maybe that should be 25, and I bet there wouldn't be that statistical difference if new drivers didn't drink.

[Max Rockatansky]

Alright, how about this: A universal bill of rights specifically for people under the age of 21:

1. Ratification of the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child in the US.

2. Minimum age of adult criminal responsibility set at age 21 without exceptions

3. Child Marriage Banned (its just a legalized excuse to get around age of consent laws)

4.Remove the requirement for parental consent/minimum age limits to receive (or refuse) medical care/psychiatric treatment/contraception/prescription medication/surgery (too many states have laws that allow parents to refuse kids medical care against their will for personal belief/religious reasons)

5. Criminalize Corporal Punishment of children/minors, classifying it as felony/misdemeanor assault just as one would be charged for doing the same thing to an adult.

6. Mandate that all scheduling in society, in terms of work/school...etc, the ability to get full night sleeps is prioritized for people under the age of 21, due to the increased need for sleep for continuing brain development. In other words, companies would be required to give hour preferences to people under the age of 21 under the law.

7. Make any form of Child Abuse, not just sexual, a non-expungeable criminal offense on people's permanent records.

8. Ban cousin marriage, it's unbelievable that it is still allowed in some states, it's extremely selfish to risk genetic problems in offspring at any level that are avoidable. Things like drinking while pregnant should also be criminalized.

9. Lower the minimum compulsory education requirement to 10th grade, with the exception of math and science, and the high school drop out age from 16 to 15.

10. Enshrine a mandatory minimum family financial support statute, similar to the chart I posted earlier, into federal law, and lower the minimum age to access a custodial bank account from 21 to 15.

Some of these things are good ideas, but adulthood begins at 18, not 21.

Yep.  If you want to insist Adulthood begins at 21, then we should take the right to vote away from children between 18 & 20.  And since they're children, it's probably unsafe for them to drive, so take away their ability to drive until they're 21.  Maybe take away their ability to access a gun until they're 21 also.  That includes hunting.  Also, they can't enter into contracts as kids, so they won't be able to own a house or car or rent anything by themselves, so it will be prohibited they live on their own until they're 21.  Numbers 9 and 10 should be the opposite:  Since they're kids, it's mandatory they remain in school until they're 21.  They can't have their own bank account until they're 21 either.

One that always seemed strange to me was that you can enlist in the miliary at 18 but you can't legally drink.  Saying the former is okay but the latter isn't doesn't seem to add up. 

[MultiMillionMiler]

That's actually as low as 16 in some states with "Parental Consent", yet you can't even buy a $2 lottery ticket until 18.

And I don't see how an older person "giving permission" for a younger person to join the military makes it any better.

[US 89]

Artificially high drinking ages in environments where individuals are largely treated as adults (for example, college campuses) leads to more dangerous drinking habits.

[kalvado]

Alright, how about this: A universal bill of rights specifically for people under the age of 21:

1. Ratification of the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child in the US.

2. Minimum age of adult criminal responsibility set at age 21 without exceptions

3. Child Marriage Banned (its just a legalized excuse to get around age of consent laws)

4.Remove the requirement for parental consent/minimum age limits to receive (or refuse) medical care/psychiatric treatment/contraception/prescription medication/surgery (too many states have laws that allow parents to refuse kids medical care against their will for personal belief/religious reasons)

5. Criminalize Corporal Punishment of children/minors, classifying it as felony/misdemeanor assault just as one would be charged for doing the same thing to an adult.

6. Mandate that all scheduling in society, in terms of work/school...etc, the ability to get full night sleeps is prioritized for people under the age of 21, due to the increased need for sleep for continuing brain development. In other words, companies would be required to give hour preferences to people under the age of 21 under the law.

7. Make any form of Child Abuse, not just sexual, a non-expungeable criminal offense on people's permanent records.

8. Ban cousin marriage, it's unbelievable that it is still allowed in some states, it's extremely selfish to risk genetic problems in offspring at any level that are avoidable. Things like drinking while pregnant should also be criminalized.

9. Lower the minimum compulsory education requirement to 10th grade, with the exception of math and science, and the high school drop out age from 16 to 15.

10. Enshrine a mandatory minimum family financial support statute, similar to the chart I posted earlier, into federal law, and lower the minimum age to access a custodial bank account from 21 to 15.

Some of these things are good ideas, but adulthood begins at 18, not 21.

Yep.  If you want to insist Adulthood begins at 21, then we should take the right to vote away from children between 18 & 20.  And since they're children, it's probably unsafe for them to drive, so take away their ability to drive until they're 21.  Maybe take away their ability to access a gun until they're 21 also.  That includes hunting.  Also, they can't enter into contracts as kids, so they won't be able to own a house or car or rent anything by themselves, so it will be prohibited they live on their own until they're 21.  Numbers 9 and 10 should be the opposite:  Since they're kids, it's mandatory they remain in school until they're 21.  They can't have their own bank account until they're 21 either.

One that always seemed strange to me was that you can enlist in the miliary at 18 but you can't legally drink.  Saying the former is okay but the latter isn't doesn't seem to add up.

This is probably coming from some health concerns. Alcohol having negative effect on developing body is probably true. 21 is an overkill, sure, but there has to be an age limit. And physical, mental, legal, and reproductive adulthood are not necessarily the same age.

[MultiMillionMiler]

But military service doesn't?!

[MultiMillionMiler]

If the brain doesn't finish developing until, say, 25, then there's no way one can say "7 is the age of reason" when it comes to knowing right from wrong, and use that to justify giving a 7 yr old a criminal record in the legal system. And if 7 was the age of reason, then why do they think a 17 year old isn't reasonable enough to decide how to spend $2 on a lottery ticket or not.

[thspfc]

@roadgeekteen, fine, but then ALL adult privileges should be available at age 18, none should have to wait until 21. Including, drinking, gambling, renting hotel rooms, interstate trucking, accessing/opening a bank account, car insurance rates dropping to normal, running for political positions..etc

I agree for the most part.

I don't disagree with any of that from the perspective of government authority.  However, things like rental car agencies not renting to people under 25 is a private business decision.

Car Insurance rates as well.  Insurance companies look at statistics, and statistics show that people under the age of 25 are more likely to be involved in a crash.  If insurance companies were able to connect the dots and looked at social media and forums for things like what MMM writes, his insurance rates would be sky high as he widely documents he is unable to handle curves on highways.  That would be where being a troll would bite him in the ass.

Well that would be an extreme 1st amendment violation/breach of privacy/Fascism.

I find it hilarious that you're citing the Bill of Rights despite most of your other ideas going against the Bill of Rights.

[MultiMillionMiler]

What did I say that goes against the bill of rights?

[thspfc]

That's actually as low as 16 in some states with "Parental Consent", yet you can't even buy a $2 lottery ticket until 18.

Teenagers are awful with money. Many adults are too, but adults at least understand the concept of money and why it's important.

[Max Rockatansky]

Alright, how about this: A universal bill of rights specifically for people under the age of 21:

1. Ratification of the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child in the US.

2. Minimum age of adult criminal responsibility set at age 21 without exceptions

3. Child Marriage Banned (its just a legalized excuse to get around age of consent laws)

4.Remove the requirement for parental consent/minimum age limits to receive (or refuse) medical care/psychiatric treatment/contraception/prescription medication/surgery (too many states have laws that allow parents to refuse kids medical care against their will for personal belief/religious reasons)

5. Criminalize Corporal Punishment of children/minors, classifying it as felony/misdemeanor assault just as one would be charged for doing the same thing to an adult.

6. Mandate that all scheduling in society, in terms of work/school...etc, the ability to get full night sleeps is prioritized for people under the age of 21, due to the increased need for sleep for continuing brain development. In other words, companies would be required to give hour preferences to people under the age of 21 under the law.

7. Make any form of Child Abuse, not just sexual, a non-expungeable criminal offense on people's permanent records.

8. Ban cousin marriage, it's unbelievable that it is still allowed in some states, it's extremely selfish to risk genetic problems in offspring at any level that are avoidable. Things like drinking while pregnant should also be criminalized.

9. Lower the minimum compulsory education requirement to 10th grade, with the exception of math and science, and the high school drop out age from 16 to 15.

10. Enshrine a mandatory minimum family financial support statute, similar to the chart I posted earlier, into federal law, and lower the minimum age to access a custodial bank account from 21 to 15.

Some of these things are good ideas, but adulthood begins at 18, not 21.

Yep.  If you want to insist Adulthood begins at 21, then we should take the right to vote away from children between 18 & 20.  And since they're children, it's probably unsafe for them to drive, so take away their ability to drive until they're 21.  Maybe take away their ability to access a gun until they're 21 also.  That includes hunting.  Also, they can't enter into contracts as kids, so they won't be able to own a house or car or rent anything by themselves, so it will be prohibited they live on their own until they're 21.  Numbers 9 and 10 should be the opposite:  Since they're kids, it's mandatory they remain in school until they're 21.  They can't have their own bank account until they're 21 either.

One that always seemed strange to me was that you can enlist in the miliary at 18 but you can't legally drink.  Saying the former is okay but the latter isn't doesn't seem to add up.

This is probably coming from some health concerns. Alcohol having negative effect on developing body is probably true. 21 is an overkill, sure, but there has to be an age limit. And physical, mental, legal, and reproductive adulthood are not necessarily the same age.

I get all that, especially with the argument the the brain is still developing.  That said, if you're enlisted the chances are you are going to be consuming copious amounts of alcohol as soon as you get out boot camp.  Young enough to serve (possibly die for your country), but not young enough to legally drink seems like a misnomer. 

[Max Rockatansky]

But military service doesn't?!

Usually depends on what your occupation is in the military and if you see deployment in a forward operating position.  The guy working at the Pass & ID building is probably not coming away with many injuries compared to someone in the Infantry.   

[roadman65]

That's actually as low as 16 in some states with "Parental Consent", yet you can't even buy a $2 lottery ticket until 18.

Teenagers are awful with money. Many adults are too, but adults at least understand the concept of money and why it's important.

We never get to hold it anymore. It's Direct Deposited and then spent from Debit Card.

We used to have a checkbook where we saw our balances so we based our spending habits around what we have. Nowadays we don't know what we have until we use our bank app after we spent two bucks on the coffee we see at the gas pump which is too late and beyond the point to pace ourselves.

[kalvado]

But military service doesn't?!

Usually depends on what your occupation is in the military and if you see deployment in a forward operating position.  The guy working at the Pass & ID building is probably not coming away with many injuries compared to someone in the Infantry.

Forget even the position itself, but just the heavy training, sleep deprivation, rigorous exercise..etc, isn't damaging to a 16-18 year old?

Military benefit from cannon fodder being mentally immature. It's hard to convince responsible adults that doing pom-pom on other people is a good thing.  Heavy training and sleep deprivation are on the same page as ways to reduce critical thinking.

[MultiMillionMiler]

That's actually as low as 16 in some states with "Parental Consent", yet you can't even buy a $2 lottery ticket until 18.

Teenagers are awful with money. Many adults are too, but adults at least understand the concept of money and why it's important.

Citation needed. And if that's the case how does the justify military service being the same age, or the working age being as low as 14. It seems we lower the age limits when we want to punish/use children for our benefit(like the army), but want to raise them when we fear they may get a shred of independence or too much authority. Why is the age of consent as low as 16? Isn't pregnancy/HIV potentially much more life ruining than drinking/buying powerball?

[roadman65]

Maybe you should enlist.   It would help you out tremendously. You might learn discipline.

[Max Rockatansky]

But military service doesn't?!

Usually depends on what your occupation is in the military and if you see deployment in a forward operating position.  The guy working at the Pass & ID building is probably not coming away with many injuries compared to someone in the Infantry.

Forget even the position itself, but just the heavy training, sleep deprivation, rigorous exercise..etc, isn't damaging to a 16-18 year old?

How so?  Military boot camp isn't any worse physically than playing a contact sport in high school.  Most people don't come out of boot camp in some level of phenomenal physical physique.  You might be overestimating the difficultly by a considerable margin.

[kalvado]

That's actually as low as 16 in some states with "Parental Consent", yet you can't even buy a $2 lottery ticket until 18.

Teenagers are awful with money. Many adults are too, but adults at least understand the concept of money and why it's important.

We never get to hold it anymore. It's Direct Deposited and then spent from Debit Card.

We used to have a checkbook where we saw our balances so we based our spending habits around what we have. Nowadays we don't know what we have until we use our bank app after we spent two bucks on the coffee we see at the gas pump which is too late and beyond the point to pace ourselves.

I certainly made an effort in keeping things accounted to a few cents for a while - just to make sure I know how to control my spending. Bank app makes things way easier than trying to recall how much I paid for that sandwich in downtown yesterday.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Maybe you should enlist.   It would help you out tremendously. You might learn discipline.

Nah, I want to get paid for my work when I have a job.

[roadman65]

Oh it has its benefits, but subconsciously you still become overconfident and don't really see like you did in the day.  You used to withdrawal a certain amount and while you had the cash you would do the math in your head to see how you can stretch it out and you sure didn't impulse buy as much.

^^^max

[roadman65]

Maybe you should enlist.   It would help you out tremendously. You might learn discipline.

Nah, I want to get paid for my work when I have a job.

You'll be waiting a long time.

[thspfc]

That's actually as low as 16 in some states with "Parental Consent", yet you can't even buy a $2 lottery ticket until 18.

Teenagers are awful with money. Many adults are too, but adults at least understand the concept of money and why it's important.

We never get to hold it anymore. It's Direct Deposited and then spent from Debit Card.

We used to have a checkbook where we saw our balances so we based our spending habits around what we have. Nowadays we don't know what we have until we use our bank app after we spent two bucks on the coffee we see at the gas pump which is too late and beyond the point to pace ourselves.

That's not an excuse. Budgeting is as easy as recording a number in a spreadsheet each time you receive money or make a purchase.