The universe according to MMM

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

It decidedly is a middle class value.  I grew up hearing the virtues of college constantly from all ends of my family.

[Scott5114]

On the other hand, the trades aren't all that either. Most of them require some degree of manual dexterity and/or wedging yourself into tight places like attics, crawlspaces, under a car, etc. While, yes, you can make really good money as an auto mechanic, plumber, or electrician, not everyone has the physical constitution to handle such a job.

[Rothman]

I would prefer that the notion that "everyone needs to go to college" dies.

I don't think that notion was ever alive outside of middle-class America.

Baloney.  My mother grew up in a coal camp in Kentucky.  Her parents and most of the parents of her generation taught their kids to "get out of Dodge," get an education and get work that didn't involve the misery of working in the mines or for the coal company.

Even poorer students managed to go to local "teaching colleges" to become teachers.  Other students headed off to UK and then elsewhere.

Hence the frequently noted and cited "brain drain" in Appalachia.

My mother's little coal camp is a tenth of the once thriving little town now, especially since the local mine has closed permanently (they even ripped out the rail line and blockaded the old rail tunnels).  Those that remained mostly feel trapped.

So, yes, the idea of college as being a way to prosperity was quite alive in poorer, rural areas of the country.  Given the history, the lack of opportunity to even consider college may have led to a generational dismissal of the idea.

[Max Rockatansky]

On the other hand, the trades aren't all that either. Most of them require some degree of manual dexterity and/or wedging yourself into tight places like attics, crawlspaces, under a car, etc. While, yes, you can make really good money as an auto mechanic, plumber, or electrician, not everyone has the physical constitution to handle such a job.

The mere fact that I can fix analog CCTV systems likely ensured my continued employment through the post housing crash recession.  It's not the most difficult skill to obtain but you do need dexterity and an ability to handle getting conveyed absurdly high degrees of dust/filth.

[thspfc]

I grew up

anymore

[thspfc]

I would prefer that the notion that "everyone needs to go to college" dies.

I don't think that notion was ever alive outside of middle-class America.

Baloney.  My mother grew up in a coal camp in Kentucky.  Her parents and most of the parents of her generation taught their kids to "get out of Dodge," get an education and get work that didn't involve the misery of working in the mines or for the coal company.

Even poorer students managed to go to local "teaching colleges" to become teachers.  Other students headed off to UK and then elsewhere.

Hence the frequently noted and cited "brain drain" in Appalachia.

My mother's little coal camp is a tenth of the once thriving little town now, especially since the local mine has closed permanently (they even ripped out the rail line and blockaded the old rail tunnels).  Those that remained mostly feel trapped.

So, yes, the idea of college as being a way to prosperity was quite alive in poorer, rural areas of the country.  Given the history, the lack of opportunity to even consider college may have led to a generational dismissal of the idea.

Can you blame them for pushing kids to go to college? Why is Appalachia economically struggling in the first place? From an Ohio State study: a low-paying industry structure, below average education, low household mobility, and remoteness from cities. All issues that a person can escape by going to college and leaving the region.

[jeffandnicole]

While I'm guilty of participating myself, 140+ posts in a single day on an off-topic post that has no subject, plot, continuity or substance is a bit much.  Off-Topic should be a minor portion of the forum's traffic; not something that consistently appears on the 'Recent Posts' section.

[Rothman]

I would prefer that the notion that "everyone needs to go to college" dies.

I don't think that notion was ever alive outside of middle-class America.

Baloney.  My mother grew up in a coal camp in Kentucky.  Her parents and most of the parents of her generation taught their kids to "get out of Dodge," get an education and get work that didn't involve the misery of working in the mines or for the coal company.

Even poorer students managed to go to local "teaching colleges" to become teachers.  Other students headed off to UK and then elsewhere.

Hence the frequently noted and cited "brain drain" in Appalachia.

My mother's little coal camp is a tenth of the once thriving little town now, especially since the local mine has closed permanently (they even ripped out the rail line and blockaded the old rail tunnels).  Those that remained mostly feel trapped.

So, yes, the idea of college as being a way to prosperity was quite alive in poorer, rural areas of the country.  Given the history, the lack of opportunity to even consider college may have led to a generational dismissal of the idea.

Can you blame them for pushing kids to go to college? Why is Appalachia economically struggling in the first place? From an Ohio State study: a low-paying industry structure, below average education, low household mobility, and remoteness from cities. All issues that a person can escape by going to college and leaving the region.

Of course not...hence the context of the thread.

[Max Rockatansky]

While I'm guilty of participating myself, 140+ posts in a single day on an off-topic post that has no subject, plot, continuity or substance is a bit much.  Off-Topic should be a minor portion of the forum's traffic; not something that consistently appears on the 'Recent Posts' section.

For some background context pertaining to me, I spent the entire afternoon on a CA 72/Old US 101 blog.  So yes, while I have been contributing to this rolling disaster all day I also reviewed the 113 years of life of a state highway segment.  Considering I now have a backlog of blogs with scheduled publishing dates out to June 10th I think it's safe to say that I still tend to most of my down time at home on research. 

[interstatefan990]

While I'm guilty of participating myself, 140+ posts in a single day on an off-topic post that has no subject, plot, continuity or substance is a bit much.  Off-Topic should be a minor portion of the forum's traffic; not something that consistently appears on the 'Recent Posts' section.

It's funny you say that, because just now I was noticing that a lot of high-posting users have large proportions of their posts in Off-Topic.

By posts per board:

kphoger: Off-Topic is #1 most popular
Roadgeekteen: Off-Topic is #2 most popular
JayhawkCO: Off-Topic is #2 most popular
Scott5114: Off-Topic is #1 most popular
1: Off-Topic is #2 most popular
Max Rockatansky: Off-Topic is #1 most popular

From an Ohio State study: a low-paying industry structure, below average education, low household mobility, and remoteness from cities. All issues that a person can escape by going to college and leaving the region.

But escaping all of those things requires money. And usually, people who have those things don't have a lot of money to start with.

[Roadgeekteen]

While I'm guilty of participating myself, 140+ posts in a single day on an off-topic post that has no subject, plot, continuity or substance is a bit much.  Off-Topic should be a minor portion of the forum's traffic; not something that consistently appears on the 'Recent Posts' section.

The Off Topic board has just as much, if not more activity than General Highway Talk lately.

[Rothman]

From an Ohio State study: a low-paying industry structure, below average education, low household mobility, and remoteness from cities. All issues that a person can escape by going to college and leaving the region.

But escaping all of those things requires money. And usually, people who have those things don't have a lot of money to start with.

...which is why all those poor parents in Appalachia scrimped and saved to at least get the kid into some sort of college.

To be clear, I certainly don't believe college is the only path to prosperity.  But to say that the education/college path was not something anyone other than the middle class was exposed to is a denial of some of the most important and historical socioeconomic shifts in our country (i.e., the brain drain).

And, come to think of it, my father's family was also poor and he ended up working himself into college, mostly in desperation for economic stability (my grandfather, who came close to death during WWII, had no patience with authority afterwards and quit jobs when he had run-ins with superiors).  But, his background was growing up in downtown Trenton, NJ...to the point where he was bused to the suburbs to better integrate the schools (true story...one of the white kids shipped with the minority children...).  So, urban poor rather than rural poor.  My father lucked into supportive mentors, especially after the family moved to Utah when my grandfather got a job with the National Park Service as a heavy equipment operator (fitting everything into a small pull-behind U-Haul trailer...my father refers to this as his "pioneer experience").

[kkt]

People on here saying lack of experience is a red flag...maybe going to college accounts for that gap?? So unless someone worked every single nook and cranny in between their education periods, that's a strike against them? Pfft, the bar is set too high these days, no one should have to do both. Oh and I took summer classes, so I could take a course or 2 less a semester and do better. So where is this gap everyone is talking about? You can't prefer people with college degrees and then criticize lack of work experience because they had to spend their time getting that degree. And the jobs I am thinking of probably wouldn't be that picky anyway. There is a huge trucker shortage and most driving jobs I have browsed are "urgently hiring".

If this is directed in part (or entirely) toward me, first, students in high school or college can often work summers, and if they came back to work at the same place again that probably means the people there appreciated their work.  And it's possible to work part time junior and senior years of high school and during college.  The students I hired were not allowed to work more than 19 hours/week while school was in session, and I usually didn't schedule one person to work more than 10-12 hours/week just because their first priority should be doing well in their classes.  If they were experienced at working at the same time as taking classes I might schedule them for more.  The other aspect was that if someone was scheduled for, say, 18 hours per week and then stopped working in my department, it would be very hard to fill our schedule with the remaining employees; with a 12 hour per work maximum per student employee the damage one person leaving would do was more tolerable.

[MultiMillionMiler]

And where's the time for leisure in all of that? Seriously what's the point of living if all you are doing is school and work 15 hours a day?

[hotdogPi]

And where's the time for leisure in all of that? Seriously what's the point of living if all you are doing is school and work 15 hours a day?

I assume 7 for school plus 8 for work? Saturdays and Sundays, or if you work on those days, you'll have some free time during the week, too.

[Max Rockatansky]

You do those things early usually in early adulthood so you don't have to later.  The first five years of my adult life were among the most boring and plain I lived since I was working full time, going to school full time and having to figure out how to fund everything.  It paid off though  five years in when I parlayed the career and school experience into a big pay day via promotion.

The biggest takeaway I got from early adulthood was living paycheck to paycheck horrible.  That helped motivate me to get out of that situation and learn to do things like manage my own life.  I probably missed out on a lot of things people do in their early adult years (especially socially) but the back side pay off was worth the sacrifice.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Alot of people say that, which explains why so many young adults are suicidally depressed and even older adults have so many untreated mental health issues. I don't think it's worth sacrificing your prime of life years unless you are getting paid so much that you can afford to just buy a new car/small house right off the bat, and are able to live comfortably for the next decade or two with an easier job. The amount of people today who work 2 jobs just to blow their income on college for example, is astonishing. And again, not to flare up the whole college debate (and sorry if I sounded offensive at all not trying to tell anyone how they should live their life these are just my opinions from psychology), but since the average salary of a job that a college graduate holds is maybe $11,000 or $12,000 higher than a high school graduate, the physical health drain usually doesn't pay off (for most people anyway) unless you are literally going to be a CEO or neurosurgeon.

[kalvado]

Alot of people say that, which explains why so many young adults are suicidally depressed and even older adults have so many untreated mental health issues. I don't think it's worth sacrificing your prime of life years unless you are getting paid so much that you can afford to just buy a new car/small house right off the bat, and are able to live comfortably for the next decade or two with an easier job. The amount of people today who work 2 jobs just to blow their income on college for example, is astonishing. And again, not to flare up the whole college debate (and sorry if I sounded offensive at all not trying to tell anyone how they should live their life these are just my opinions from psychology), but since the average salary of a job that a college graduate holds is maybe $11,000 or $12,000 higher than a high school graduate, the physical health drain usually doesn't pay off (for mostYo people anyway) unless you are literally going to be a CEO or neurosurgeon.

You may have pretty unrealistic expectations for CEO or neurosurgeon career path. It's about 7 years of residency for the latter...

[kalvado]

Yeah, to make multiple Six figures a year though. Most careers don't end up offsetting the delay in getting the actual job.

I doubt you would get to 6-figure in the sanitation department as well. Not on today's scale; inflation can make things look different.

[Max Rockatansky]

Alot of people say that, which explains why so many young adults are suicidally depressed and even older adults have so many untreated mental health issues. I don't think it's worth sacrificing your prime of life years unless you are getting paid so much that you can afford to just buy a new car/small house right off the bat, and are able to live comfortably for the next decade or two with an easier job. The amount of people today who work 2 jobs just to blow their income on college for example, is astonishing. And again, not to flare up the whole college debate (and sorry if I sounded offensive at all not trying to tell anyone how they should live their life these are just my opinions from psychology), but since the average salary of a job that a college graduate holds is maybe $11,000 or $12,000 higher than a high school graduate, the physical health drain usually doesn't pay off (for most people anyway) unless you are literally going to be a CEO or neurosurgeon.

I never said that I was depressed or drained though.  Sure, I was stressed out for at times but I learned what those stressor sources were and how to mitigate them.  I had no ambition to be a CEO or something that required a Masters.  In fact once my career level elevated I backed off school a little.  I eventually quit school when I determined it wasn't going to be much of a factor for continued advancement.

[Max Rockatansky]

Fall 2008 (could have been Sprint 2009) I want to say?  I started going to school full time during the Spring of 2004 and did full time through the end of 2005.  I was only doing an average of 6 credit hours during the Spring and Fall semesters after 2005 due to my work schedule and having the money to other things.  I usually picked up another 3-4 credit hours during Summer semester post 2005.  In fact my only online class was during a Summer semester.  The equivalent to Junior year if you are looking for the traditional four year structure answer.

[thspfc]

What about the 4-5 hours of HW you get in high school?

4-5 hours? Yeah right.

[kkt]

And where's the time for leisure in all of that? Seriously what's the point of living if all you are doing is school and work 15 hours a day?

It's the student employees choice whether or not to work, or (within broad limits) how many hours to work.

One week = 168 hours
- 56 hours sleeping (8 hours a night, do college students actually get that much?)
- 15 hours in class
- 15 hours doing homework (rule of thumb 1 hour homework per hour in class)
- 15 hours part time job
- 7 hours eating

still leaves 116 hours a week for getting to/from class, but includes a fair amount of time for socializing and liesure.  And I'd hope that the student would get some pleasure in the classes as well, it's not sheer torture the whole time.

[hotdogPi]

60, not 116. You seem to have forgotten to subtract the 56.

[MultiMillionMiler]

10 hours of sleep minimum for people under age 21 is needed for a healthy brain, and at least 9 hours up to age 25 (neuroscience supports this). In fact, part of the reason it took me 5 years was because I only chose classes at 10:30 am and later, and sometimes I couldn't find anything that fit so I put off that particular class until the next semester..etc. I fall asleep at 10:30 to 11 pm generally every night and can't really function getting up earlier than 7:30-8 am, and I will be looking for job hours that suits this criteria also. I'd even sacrifice lunch hour if necessary to get the extra hour of sleep. Sleep deprivation is the most dangerous health risk with a job out of most other factors.