Is Countertrolling a Troll The Answer

[Max Rockatansky]

Did we get any memes out of MMM?  Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.

[kalvado]

Did we get any memes out of MMM?  Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.

helicopter hooks?
Shortcut through lake michigan?
Fake interstate?

[SectorZ]

Did we get any memes out of MMM?  Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.

helicopter hooks?
Shortcut through lake michigan?
Fake interstate?

Nut rate
Star Trek
Prime numbers

[jmacswimmer]

Did we get any memes out of MMM?  Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.

This is definitely the one that will stick with me - just now while writing a post about the Capital Beltway's windy portion along Rock Creek in Montgomery County, I thought about this in the back of my head. If he had picked this segment to base his "flip-your-car curves" argument around, I might have taken him halfway seriously since truck rollovers do occur there occasionally.

I-80 superiority and tolling a short stretch of the northern NJTP at the same rate as the entire road while de-tolling it everywhere else also come to mind.

[roadman65]

Did we get any memes out of MMM?  Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.

helicopter hooks?
Shortcut through lake michigan?
Fake interstate?

Nut rate
Star Trek
Prime numbers

People laughing at I-80 and 90 in IN and OH
Tunnel under Rockies

[kphoger]

The thing is, he did not explicitly break any rules. He was annoying, but being annoying isn't against the rules.

Right, that's kind of the key problem here. I don't want us to get to the point where someone can get moderated for having a stupid opinion. (If we did, I'd probably have to ban myself.) And we do need a clear rule we can point to when someone says "Why am I banned?"

Why?  I understand wanting to be fair and ethical, but limiting yourselves to a list of discrete rules isn't the same thing as being fair and ethical.  That is to say, it is perfectly possible to be fair and ethical while banning a troll who hasn't technically broken any rules.  This isn't a court of law:  it's an internet forum, and common sense can carry the day just as easily as technicalities.

This guy wasn't just annoying.  He didn't just have a stupid opinion.  He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher.  The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.

[webny99]

This guy wasn't just annoying.  He didn't just have a stupid opinion.  He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher.  The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.

See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.

[JayhawkCO]

This guy wasn't just annoying.  He didn't just have a stupid opinion.  He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher.  The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.

See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.

What, pray tell, outside of blatant racism, sexism, or some other ism, would be worse? Just posting pictures of dead puppies or something?

[kphoger]

I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.

And today's snow storm is caused by DST as well!

I just heard about a much smaller disaster that was caused by DST.

Mexico just passed a law in November that eliminated DST except in the border zone, which continues to observe the same schedule as in the USA.  Apparently, last fall was the last time most of Mexico will change their clocks.  I did not know this.  Our friends who live in Mexico did not know this.  They just drove back down from Kansas last week, arriving in Mexico late Thursday evening.

There are three kids they know whose family doesn't take care of them, so our friends have sort of taken them under their wing to some extent.  Because Adam was feeling sick this morning, his wife left dark and early to go pick one of those children up for school.  She asked why Hannah was showing up so early in the morning, so she explained DST to her, and how she was actually arriving on time.  She understood and got in the car with Hannah.  They drove by a Catholic school and noticed that nobody was there yet, so she started doubting herself.  She stopped and asked a police officer, who replied that it was only 5:40 AM.  So this poor girl made it to school on time, but she missed an hour of sleep.  All because Adam's cell phone updated to DST on Sunday, even though they live in a country that no longer observes DST.

[kphoger]

This guy wasn't just annoying.  He didn't just have a stupid opinion.  He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher.  The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.

See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.

What, pray tell, outside of blatant racism, sexism, or some other ism, would be worse? Just posting pictures of dead puppies or something?

Being a registered Republican?

Seriously, though.  Racism, sexism, and other isms aren't trolling.  They are either clear violations of forum rules or only require a simple message from a mod to correct.

[JayhawkCO]

I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.

And today's snow storm is caused by DST as well!

I just heard about a much smaller disaster that was caused by DST.

Mexico just passed a law in November that eliminated DST except in the border zone, which continues to observe the same schedule as in the USA.  Apparently, last fall was the last time most of Mexico will change their clocks.  I did not know this.  Our friends who live in Mexico did not know this.  They just drove back down from Kansas last week, arriving in Mexico late Thursday evening.

There are three kids they know whose family doesn't take care of them, so our friends have sort of taken them under their wing to some extent.  Because Adam was feeling sick this morning, his wife left dark and early to go pick one of those children up for school.  She asked why Hannah was showing up so early in the morning, so she explained DST to her, and how she was actually arriving on time.  She understood and got in the car with Hannah.  They drove by a Catholic school and noticed that nobody was there yet, so she started doubting herself.  She stopped and asked a police officer, who replied that it was only 5:40 AM.  So this poor girl made it to school on time, but she missed an hour of sleep.  All because Adam's cell phone updated to DST on Sunday, even though they live in a country that no longer observes DST.

When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.

[JayhawkCO]

This guy wasn't just annoying.  He didn't just have a stupid opinion.  He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher.  The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.

See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.

What, pray tell, outside of blatant racism, sexism, or some other ism, would be worse? Just posting pictures of dead puppies or something?

Being a registered Republican?

Seriously, though.  Racism, sexism, and other isms aren't trolling.  They are either clear violations of forum rules or only require a simple message from a mod to correct.

There are plenty of registered Republicans I like just fine. I would argue that you can troll with racism, sexism, and other isms however. Dropping an n-word isn't inherently trolling. Continuing to do it when called on it is.

[roadman65]

In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.

[kalvado]

This guy wasn't just annoying.  He didn't just have a stupid opinion.  He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher.  The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.

See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.

MMM did shine primarily because he was well fed. I hate to point fingers, but someone with nickname starting with R seemed the most avid feeder.
Well fed MMM's fur would be an invaluable asset to whoever gets it!

[roadman65]

The one who tried to get MMM contained to one thread you mean.

[kalvado]

In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.

Would that be the earliest time within US in winters?

[roadman65]

In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.

Would that be the earliest time within US in winters?

I guess so. I'm not sure.

[hotdogPi]

The one who tried to get MMM contained to one thread you mean.

Given that I was successful with FritzOwl, that particular action wasn't a bad idea. However, he was one of the primary arguers.

In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.

I don't understand why a state on the western edge of the time zone is trying to do this.

[kphoger]

When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.

This is actually of particular concern to me.  This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving.  Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there.  On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time.  If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.

I guess I'd better look into this...

[JayhawkCO]

When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.

This is actually of particular concern to me.  This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving.  Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there.  On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time.  If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.

I guess I'd better look into this...

I'm guessing, especially since AA flies to many destinations in Mexico, that they'll be a little more aware of the situation than they were of Haiti, a place they flew to two locations. Also, they have a lot more notice in your case.

[kalvado]

When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.

This is actually of particular concern to me.  This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving.  Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there.  On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time.  If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.

I guess I'd better look into this...

I'm guessing, especially since AA flies to many destinations in Mexico, that they'll be a little more aware of the situation than they were of Haiti, a place they flew to two locations. Also, they have a lot more notice in your case.

I wonder how long it took to correct Haiti error. Basically first day of DST would bring enough complains from pax and employees alike to correct things. Already sold tickets would still show wrong times, but e-mails can go out.

[roadman65]

The one who tried to get MMM contained to one thread you mean.

Given that I was successful with FritzOwl, that particular action wasn't a bad idea. However, he was one of the primary arguers.

In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.

I don't understand why a state on the western edge of the time zone is trying to do this.

We like our late sunsets. Go to the Panhandle and it's annoying to see the sun set at 7:30 in July.

No we are not the farthest west. The Western UP of Michigan is. Plus in Cincinnati I saw the Summer skies still lit up near 10 PM.

[JayhawkCO]

When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.

This is actually of particular concern to me.  This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving.  Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there.  On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time.  If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.

I guess I'd better look into this...

I'm guessing, especially since AA flies to many destinations in Mexico, that they'll be a little more aware of the situation than they were of Haiti, a place they flew to two locations. Also, they have a lot more notice in your case.

I wonder how long it took to correct Haiti error. Basically first day of DST would bring enough complains from pax and employees alike to correct things. Already sold tickets would still show wrong times, but e-mails can go out.

At least it was the right direction and people weren't late because of the issue. I spent way too much time on AA Twitter trying to get to the bottom of it prior to the flight and no one there had a clue. That's why it behooved us to just get there early in case.

[hotdogPi]

I don't understand why a state on the western edge of the time zone is trying to do this.

We like our late sunsets. Go to the Panhandle and it's annoying to see the sun set at 7:30 in July.

Permanent DST doesn't even affect the time in July.

[kphoger]

When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.

This is actually of particular concern to me.  This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving.  Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there.  On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time.  If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.

I guess I'd better look into this...

I'm guessing, especially since AA flies to many destinations in Mexico, that they'll be a little more aware of the situation than they were of Haiti, a place they flew to two locations. Also, they have a lot more notice in your case.

So, I just checked.  Flights were booked on February 27, and the flight times on Travelocity as seen today match up to the minute.  I also did the math, and it's clear that United Airlines has correctly taken into account the elimination of DST in Mexico.  Wichita, Houston, and Monterrey are all in the same time zone, yet IAH→MTY arrives just 34 minutes after departure, whereas MTY→IAH arrives 2 hours 28 minutes after departure.  Clearly, each flight takes 1½ hours, but they're accounting for the difference between CDT and CST.

Whew!

Now I just need to correct my driving itinerary.  Unless my head is on backwards, I believe this means that, instead of getting to the airport an hour after they touch down, we'll actually get there on time.  Yay!