OceanGate Titan submersible vehicle and crew presumed lost near Titanic wreckage

[kphoger]

I know someone who recently became a millionaire overnight.  Her husband's father had been really into the stock market for years, had built up a portfolio worth millions, and then divided it up amongst his children as an inheritance.  This person and her husband therefore unexpectedly had roughly a million dollars' worth of stocks dropped in their lap.  They paid off their car and are now in the process of buying a house.

Their million bucks say absolutely nothing about their moral character.  They didn't earn it through dishonest or unethical means.  And the fact that his father was a multimillionaire doesn't speak to any douchebag-iness on his part:  he merely became successful at trading stocks.  Just because someone has millions of dollars, that doesn't automatically mean he's a shady person.

And I don't see why there's some huge divide between millionaire and billionaire, where it's OK to assume the worst of someone on the other side of that line.  The billionaire family that I used to know were Ron and Melissa Herschend (Ron passed away a few years ago but I already hadn't seen them in probably a decade by that point), who at the time operated Silver Dollar City among other attractions.  His father was Jack Herschend, co-founder of Silver Dollar City.  My introduction to them was through my wife, whose family was friends with them;  their youngest daughter attended the daycare where my wife-to-be worked, and my wife's best friend later worked as their nanny.  At that time, Jack Herschend spent only half of his time with business matters, spending the other half working with charity organizations.  One could also occasionally see him doing landscape work along Branson's city streets, for free, just because he enjoyed putting his green thumb to good use;  this was not publicized at all, it was just something he liked to do, and I think only people who knew him personally were even aware he did so.  In a city dominated by seasonal work, Jack claimed that his biggest enjoyment came from providing year-round work to people whenever possible.  I never met Jack, but Ron (his son) and Melissa never once made me, a lowly blue-collar guy who had arrived on a Greyhound bus, feel anything but welcome in their home–a million-dollar home that sits on a 22-acre lot, where I've eaten pizza and birthday cake, surrounded by kids' toys strewn on the floor, while Top Gun played on the TV.  I have fond memories of teaching their youngest daughter, who was our flower girl, to play a golf card game during the down-times of our wedding rehearsal.  They're just people.  People who happen to be worth a whole lot of money because their family business has been very successful.

[triplemultiplex]

The son wanted to set a Guinness world record for solving a Rubik's cube at the wreckage site.

Here are some links:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-dawood-shahzada-suleman-titanic-b2364742.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66015851
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/world/christine-dawood-interview-titan-submersible-scli-intl/index.html
https://www.foxnews.com/world/teen-titanic-submarine-passenger-aimed-set-rubiks-cube-world-record-dive-mom-says

Blech.  See that's exactly what I'm talking about: social media attention whoring by cash-chuckers. Why should I have any sympathy here?

These aren't some bold explorers pushing the boundaries of human knowledge and innovation; they're shmucks shelling out a lot of cash to impress people. 
All those resources at his disposal as billionaire's nepo-baby, and he was gonna use them to fuck around with a Rubik's cube?  Yeah no big loss there, clearly. 

[Rothman]

Granted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.

Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.

One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid."  Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.

Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...

I was a paralegal for a decade. I'm not sure what this relates to, though.

Paralegals get treated poorly, similar to factory workers.

In terms of universal experiences, being "treated poorly" as a paralegal meant dealing with short tempers and having to cancel plans for a night on the town at the last minute because you're needed at work.  However, there was never a time where I had to worry about my own job security if I went to take a piss break.  And the firm I worked for that was the absolute worst in terms of work/life balance and general boundaries was the one where I was making about $110K/year, in 2008 dollars, so I wouldn't say I wasn't being adequately compensated.

I was a legal assistant/paralegal for a couple of years.  Yeah, my compensation wasn't anywhere close to yours (very early 2000s).

"Not as exploited" is kind of a strange take.

[Rothman]

Pfft.  We're all scum.

[kphoger]

All those resources at his disposal as billionaire's nepo-baby, and he was gonna use them to fuck around with a Rubik's cube?  Yeah no big loss there, clearly. 

How else was he planning to spend his money, after returning from the trip?  I bet you don't even know.  You just assume that he was going to waste it frivolously or use it to exploit the poor working man or whatever.  But you don't know.

A 2023 Acura MDX costs around $50,000.  A 2014 Honda Pilot costs half that.  Do you likewise despise everyone who chooses to buy the Acura rather than donating the other $25,000 to charity?  What was the most recent purchase you made that could have gone to feed a starving family instead?

[Max Rockatansky]

Pfft.  We're all scum.

I mean, that's more or less is the reality.  All us aren't as special as we believe on any income level. 

[kphoger]

Pfft.  We're all scum.

I mean, that's more or less is the reality.  All us aren't as special as we believe on any income level. 

Yes, but it makes us feel better about ourselves to belittle others.  After all, if we didn't villainize rich people, then we might have to own up to our own scuminess instead.

[Max Rockatansky]

Pfft.  We're all scum.

I mean, that's more or less is the reality.  All us aren't as special as we believe on any income level. 

Yes, but it makes us feel better about ourselves to belittle others.  After all, if we didn't villainize rich people, then we might have to own up to our own scuminess instead.

The hardest place to point a finger of accountability or accusation is right back at yourself.  Human ego instinctively tries to preserve itself in the face of evidence to the contrary. 

[abefroman329]

I was a legal assistant/paralegal for a couple of years.  Yeah, my compensation wasn't anywhere close to yours (very early 2000s).

This was with 5 years' experience, at a boutique firm in Midtown Manhattan, and...*shrug* I guess they thought they needed me so much, they needed to throw money at me.

But yeah, my starting salary was in the low 30s.  Plus overtime, natch.

"Not as exploited" is kind of a strange take.

Bottom line, I had a lot (A LOT) of shitty days at work, but I never, for a second, thought I was working harder than the people who came to clean my office every night.  I'd put factory workers in that same bucket.

[Scott5114]

And I don't see why there's some huge divide between millionaire and billionaire, where it's OK to assume the worst of someone on the other side of that line.

This probably means that you don't have a firm mental grasp of the divide between the values "million" and "billion". Which isn't dragging you or anything; the human brain has an inherent problem with that, so most people don't.

This may be easier to illustrate if we use some unit other than an abstract dollar. This is essentially a geography forum, so let's use distance. One million feet is 189 miles. That's roughly the distance from Wichita, Kansas to Kansas City (well, Overland Park) or Norman, Oklahoma.

One billion feet is 189,394 miles. That's roughly the distance you'd travel if you encircled the entire Earth at the Equator seven and a half times.

Do you see the divide between a millionaire and a billionaire now?

[Big John]

^^ I've seen some people refer a billion as a "thousand million".

[Max Rockatansky]

I guess for me I don't really care how much money someone I don't know has?  Worrying about people I'll never interact with and what they have financially just seems excess mental baggage. 

[kphoger]

And I don't see why there's some huge divide between millionaire and billionaire, where it's OK to assume the worst of someone on the other side of that line.

This probably means that you don't have a firm mental grasp of the divide between the values "million" and "billion". Which isn't dragging you or anything; the human brain has an inherent problem with that, so most people don't.

This may be easier to illustrate if we use some unit other than an abstract dollar. This is essentially a geography forum, so let's use distance. One million feet is 189 miles. That's roughly the distance from Wichita, Kansas to Kansas City (well, Overland Park) or Norman, Oklahoma.

One billion feet is 189,394 miles. That's roughly the distance you'd travel if you encircled the entire Earth at the Equator seven and a half times.

Do you see the divide between a millionaire and a billionaire now?

I'm quite aware of the difference between a million and a billion.  It's a magnitude of 1000–the same magnitude as the difference between a thousand and a million.

And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire?  I don't see how the distance between Wichita and Overland Park has anything to do with that.  As I've said more than once now, I've personally known a couple whose family net worth was at least a billion dollars, and I don't think I've run across a single shred of scandal or unethical behavior about them–no matter how many feet long the Equator is.

Maybe you don't have a firm mental grasp of the divide between the values "thousand" and "million".  Which isn't dragging you or anything.  This is essentially a roadgeek forum, so let's use roads.  One thousand inches is just over 83 feet.  That's roughly the width of I-35 where it crosses under NE16th Street in Oklahoma City, and you could probably backwards-walk it in less than 30 seconds.  One million inches is about 15¾ miles.  That's roughly the same distance as it is from your house to the Aspen Walk Apartments, and it would probably take you eight hours to backwards-walk it.

Do you see the divide between living paycheck to paycheck and being a millionaire now?

(And just to reiterate, of the people I currently know, some of the ones with a thousand dollars to their name are a lot scummier than the ones with a million dollars to their name.)

[kalvado]

And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire?

If you will, many of us will go through $1M over the lifetime - 30 years at $33.3k/year isn't too much. With ~2000 hours a year, that is $17 per hour over working life.  Things like retirement savings or homes can easily be in $100's K. I expect  $1M total assets for a family would be fairly common.   
$1B, on the same math, means more than $10K per hour. Which is IMHO impossible without making something that may be reproduced cheaply and distributed widely - like some IP (patents royalty, music, software) or by managing - and taking over - work of many other people. Later is not unethical per se, but definitely includes "this is how much I take, and this is how much I give my workers" part.

[kphoger]

And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire?

If you will, many of us will go through $1M over the lifetime - 30 years at $33.3k/year isn't too much. With ~2000 hours a year, that is $17 per hour over working life.  Things like retirement savings or homes can easily be in $100's K. I expect  $1M total assets for a family would be fairly common.   
$1B, on the same math, means more than $10K per hour. Which is IMHO impossible without making something that may be reproduced cheaply and distributed widely - like some IP (patents royalty, music, software) or by managing - and taking over - work of many other people. Later is not unethical per se, but definitely includes "this is how much I take, and this is how much I give my workers" part.

So you say.  The only billionaire I've personally known had a family business that owns amusement parks, theaters, water parks, cabins and and resorts and campgrounds, aquariums, and other tourist attractions.  Some those ventures were started from scratch, while others were acquired over the years.  I don't see how that's automatically any more unethical than, say, a car wash owner expanding his brand across the city.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm finding this numerical calculus for somehow equating the morality of a person attached financial wealth fascinating.  I swear the way this has been quantified is one of the things only the road community could come up with.

[kalvado]

And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire?

If you will, many of us will go through $1M over the lifetime - 30 years at $33.3k/year isn't too much. With ~2000 hours a year, that is $17 per hour over working life.  Things like retirement savings or homes can easily be in $100's K. I expect  $1M total assets for a family would be fairly common.   
$1B, on the same math, means more than $10K per hour. Which is IMHO impossible without making something that may be reproduced cheaply and distributed widely - like some IP (patents royalty, music, software) or by managing - and taking over - work of many other people. Later is not unethical per se, but definitely includes "this is how much I take, and this is how much I give my workers" part.

So you say.  The only billionaire I've personally known had a family business that owns amusement parks, theaters, water parks, cabins and and resorts and campgrounds, aquariums, and other tourist attractions.  Some those ventures were started from scratch, while others were acquired over the years.  I don't see how that's automatically any more unethical than, say, a car wash owner expanding his brand across the city.

I am not saying it is unethical. All I am saying that business owner vs employees is a relation where people see the potential of ethics issues. The rest of the discussion can be found in Karl Marx texts.
Please note that I am not taking any position in that statement beyond pointing out where those issues may originate.

[thspfc]

And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire?

If you will, many of us will go through $1M over the lifetime - 30 years at $33.3k/year isn't too much. With ~2000 hours a year, that is $17 per hour over working life.  Things like retirement savings or homes can easily be in $100's K. I expect  $1M total assets for a family would be fairly common.   
$1B, on the same math, means more than $10K per hour. Which is IMHO impossible without making something that may be reproduced cheaply and distributed widely - like some IP (patents royalty, music, software) or by managing - and taking over - work of many other people. Later is not unethical per se, but definitely includes "this is how much I take, and this is how much I give my workers" part.

So you say.  The only billionaire I've personally known had a family business that owns amusement parks, theaters, water parks, cabins and and resorts and campgrounds, aquariums, and other tourist attractions.  Some those ventures were started from scratch, while others were acquired over the years.  I don't see how that's automatically any more unethical than, say, a car wash owner expanding his brand across the city.

What the anti-billionaire crowd is getting at is how billionaire CEOs/investors have copious amounts of money, yet arguably don't pay their employees enough. In that regard, it doesn't really matter how they made their money - they're still earning an insane amount of money compared to their subordinates.

I don't really have an opinion as it's a very complicated issue, but I think some people don't understand what "billionaire" means. It doesn't mean that you just have 10 figures sitting around in bank accounts.

[kphoger]

What the anti-billionaire crowd is getting at is how billionaire CEOs/investors have copious amounts of money, yet arguably don't pay their employees enough. In that regard, it doesn't really matter how they made their money - they're still earning an insane amount of money compared to their subordinates.

Let's pretend for a moment that these billionaire CEOs/investors are actually the ones in charge of setting employee wages.  I haven't heard anyone on here saying that he does an actual evaluation of their employee's wages to see if they're satisfactory.  Instead, they seem to simply assume the employees of every company that's run by a billionaire are being paid less than they deserve.  It's an obstinate refusal to see anyone whose wealth is above a certain threshold as an individual, instead stereotyping him or her after whatever caricature of a rich person they've got in their mind.

[abefroman329]

What the anti-billionaire crowd is getting at is how billionaire CEOs/investors have copious amounts of money, yet arguably don't pay their employees enough. In that regard, it doesn't really matter how they made their money - they're still earning an insane amount of money compared to their subordinates.

Let's pretend for a moment that these billionaire CEOs/investors are actually the ones in charge of setting employee wages.  I haven't heard anyone on here saying that he does an actual evaluation of their employee's wages to see if they're satisfactory.  Instead, they seem to simply assume the employees of every company that's run by a billionaire are being paid less than they deserve.  It's an obstinate refusal to see anyone whose wealth is above a certain threshold as an individual, instead stereotyping him or her after whatever caricature of a rich person they've got in their mind.

Or, to paraphrase Mr. Garrison from South Park, "we treat billionaires better because they're better people."

[kphoger]

Or, to paraphrase Mr. Garrison from South Park, "we treat billionaires better because they're better people."

It's actually the opposite:  "we're glad when billionaires die because they're shitty people."

[jgb191]

It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea.

Yeah I wish I had learn that lesson sooner myself.....but that's for whole 'nother story entirely so I'll just leave it at that.

[Rothman]

What the anti-billionaire crowd is getting at is how billionaire CEOs/investors have copious amounts of money, yet arguably don't pay their employees enough. In that regard, it doesn't really matter how they made their money - they're still earning an insane amount of money compared to their subordinates.

Let's pretend for a moment that these billionaire CEOs/investors are actually the ones in charge of setting employee wages.  I haven't heard anyone on here saying that he does an actual evaluation of their employee's wages to see if they're satisfactory.  Instead, they seem to simply assume the employees of every company that's run by a billionaire are being paid less than they deserve.  It's an obstinate refusal to see anyone whose wealth is above a certain threshold as an individual, instead stereotyping him or her after whatever caricature of a rich person they've got in their mind.

Let us take a moment to appreciate our benevolent overlords.

[Scott5114]

It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea.

Yeah I wish I had learn that lesson sooner myself.....but that's for whole 'nother story entirely so I'll just leave it at that.

Mine convinced me buying a PT Cruiser was a good idea.

[Max Rockatansky]

It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea.

Yeah I wish I had learn that lesson sooner myself.....but that's for whole 'nother story entirely so I'll just leave it at that.

Mine convinced me buying a PT Cruiser was a good idea.

Funny how the HHR despite being a copy of the PT has come out of that era somewhat cleanly remembered.