Oregon ends its 72-year ban on self-service gasoline

[GCrites]

Speaking as someone who travels semi-regularly to Mexico, where all gas stations are full-service only, I don't understand people's hatred of full-service gas stations.  So someone else pumps your gas instead of you.  What's the big deal?

Some of us just don't care for unnecessary human interaction with a stranger.  For me that's the reason, nothing more grandiose than that. 

Reminds me of the King of the Hill episode where Hank hated going to the BBQ place that he loved because he had to sit at a table with strangers.

Which, come to think of it, was pretty out-of-character for a man who sells propane and propane accessories.

"Only good, hard-working honest people buy propane and propane accessories. Now you get out in the general public and there's a bunch of freaks."

[SSOWorld]

The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Not in a few months thankfully. Thank the EU for that.

Not effective until 2024 end so Apple can go lightning another year.  Also keep in mind many interfaces such as in cars do not support USB-C which is required at both ends to handle the speed.  so there are more issues than just Apple.

[Bruce]

Honestly, I think a full-service station for EVs might make sense for some high-demand locations. An unfamiliar charging setup can confuse people and waste precious time, plus a jockey would be able to kick out an idle vehicle that has already charged up. I tried two different charging stations in Oregon this weekend and both were a pain to set up properly, between downloading yet another app, entering payment systems, fiddling with the adapter, and making sure it was optimized.

Did the station not have the ability to just pay with a credit card?  I honestly don't understand the fetish for apps that EV owners and charging companies seem to have.

They did but some lacked screens to tell you the status of the charge (speed, remaining time, cost, etc).

[kalvado]

The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Not in a few months thankfully. Thank the EU for that.

Not effective until 2024 end so Apple can go lightning another year.  Also keep in mind many interfaces such as in cars do not support USB-C which is required at both ends to handle the speed.  so there are more issues than just Apple.

USB-A to USB-C can be USB 3 speed, which is pretty fast. Now many cars don't have USB 3 support - but why would they need that anyway?
One thing to remember - car lifetime can easily be 20 years, which is quite a lot for electronics. So even relatively new car may be designed with electronics 2-3 generations ago in mind.

[seicer]

The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Not in a few months thankfully. Thank the EU for that.

Not effective until 2024 end so Apple can go lightning another year.  Also keep in mind many interfaces such as in cars do not support USB-C which is required at both ends to handle the speed.  so there are more issues than just Apple.

USB-A to USB-C can be USB 3 speed, which is pretty fast. Now many cars don't have USB 3 support - but why would they need that anyway?
One thing to remember - car lifetime can easily be 20 years, which is quite a lot for electronics. So even relatively new car may be designed with electronics 2-3 generations ago in mind.

Charging speeds and features, for one.

My 2022 Subaru Outback Wilderness came with 4 USB Type-A ports good for 5V, 2.1A. The 2024 iteration comes with a mix of USB Type-C ports (5V, 3A) and USB Type-A ports (5V, 2.4A) - with the Type-C ports good for about... 15W. Both come optional with a Quick Charge pad which is so slow that the battery actually depletes if you have it tethered to Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. I have hardwired into the car an inverter so I can use an Apple 85W power brick. I might switch to an Anker model as they are smaller and more powerful.

But... back to your question. Why? I have an iPhone 14 Pro Max, and the battery will last all day and night with heavy usage. But on my most recent trip, where I was driving for 2 hours, having it charging off of a Type-A port only raised the % by 10% while it was tethered to CarPlay. Having it plugged into my inverter can top it off in less time while tethered. No one has time to wait all day to charge a device, especially if you are wholly dependent on using it.

[kalvado]

The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Not in a few months thankfully. Thank the EU for that.

Not effective until 2024 end so Apple can go lightning another year.  Also keep in mind many interfaces such as in cars do not support USB-C which is required at both ends to handle the speed.  so there are more issues than just Apple.

USB-A to USB-C can be USB 3 speed, which is pretty fast. Now many cars don't have USB 3 support - but why would they need that anyway?
One thing to remember - car lifetime can easily be 20 years, which is quite a lot for electronics. So even relatively new car may be designed with electronics 2-3 generations ago in mind.

Charging speeds and features, for one.

My 2022 Subaru Outback Wilderness came with 4 USB Type-A ports good for 5V, 2.1A. The 2024 iteration comes with a mix of USB Type-C ports (5V, 3A) and USB Type-A ports (5V, 2.4A) - with the Type-C ports good for about... 15W. Both come optional with a Quick Charge pad which is so slow that the battery actually depletes if you have it tethered to Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. I have hardwired into the car an inverter so I can use an Apple 85W power brick. I might switch to an Anker model as they are smaller and more powerful.

But... back to your question. Why? I have an iPhone 14 Pro Max, and the battery will last all day and night with heavy usage. But on my most recent trip, where I was driving for 2 hours, having it charging off of a Type-A port only raised the % by 10% while it was tethered to CarPlay. Having it plugged into my inverter can top it off in less time while tethered. No one has time to wait all day to charge a device, especially if you are wholly dependent on using it.

So... An ol'good 12V outlet seem to be the best option as it has higher power. Same as 120V outlet at home, charger comes separate.

[seicer]

In a way, yes.

A 12V plug is a DC-to-DC charger, so you'll not have efficiency losses. When you switch from AC to DC at full wave, like with a 120V plug, you have an efficiency of about 81%. There are some newer technologies out there to boost that to 90%, but I've not yet seen one in production here yet.

In my car (which I use for work and to live in for extended periods of time), I carry a 500W battery pack with a 12V and twin 120V plugs - along with a variety of USB Type-A and Type-C ports (one of which is PD). When charging drone batteries and using the DJI battery charger on a 12V, it is still slower than using the 120V plug with an Apple 85W power brick + USB-C cable + DJI battery charger, as the DJI 12V charger doesn't pull as many volts or amps. On a 12V, I can charge a battery in about 1 hour versus .6 hours on the 120V.

I'm no electrician and this still confuses the hell out of me.

[kalvado]

In a way, yes.

A 12V plug is a DC-to-DC charger, so you'll not have efficiency losses. When you switch from AC to DC at full wave, like with a 120V plug, you have an efficiency of about 81%. There are some newer technologies out there to boost that to 90%, but I've not yet seen one in production here yet.

In my car (which I use for work and to live in for extended periods of time), I carry a 500W battery pack with a 12V and twin 120V plugs - along with a variety of USB Type-A and Type-C ports (one of which is PD). When charging drone batteries and using the DJI battery charger on a 12V, it is still slower than using the 120V plug with an Apple 85W power brick + USB-C cable + DJI battery charger, as the DJI 12V charger doesn't pull as many volts or amps. On a 12V, I can charge a battery in about 1 hour versus .6 hours on the 120V.

I'm no electrician and this still confuses the hell out of me.

You completely miss my point.
What I am saying is if you have to mate fast evolving technology (charging) on device with relatively short service live (phone)  with pretty established technology (12 or 120V distribution) in a long-lived thing (cars and homes) - you better assume interface module is not long-lived one.
That's why 5V outlets in a car, as well as in-wall chargers are, IMHO, meaningless. Design and life cycles of those converters makes them obsolete way before host structure, and they may or may not be easy to upgrade. Built-in module in a car is certainly not upgradeable.

[seicer]

Do you mean 12V outlets in a car? Because that's what's commonly referred to as the cigarette port or 12V outlet. Or do you mean the USB ports that are 5V? Because no one calls it the "5V outlet."

And yes, the modules are upgradeable and repairable - and it's not hard to do with some knowledge. I had damaged a 12V port in a 2016 Subaru, which required 10 minutes of disassembly, $20 in parts, and 30 minutes of installation. Replacing fuses when one gets overloaded is a 5-minute repair. Replacing the USB module with an updated one in my 2022 Subaru took 10 minutes to take apart the module, $60 in parts, and about an hour of installation. As it relied on the same architecture, it did not require any new wiring or fuses. The downside is that it draws pretty much the same power as it did before, but now I have the option of using USB Type-C.

The thing about charging is that it's universal. The plug has not changed in decades - 12V and 120V plugs are very common in vehicles (the latter more so in trucks and SUVs). The charging cables have changed some over the years, but it's not difficult to find cables. And the interface "modules" (unsure on what you mean there) is standardized.

[1995hoo]

^^^^

You can also find an adapter that lets you plug a standard electrical plug into a cigarette lighter. Obviously, trying to power something like a microwave or mini-refrigerator would probably be a bad idea, but you could power some smaller electronics via that sort of device if, for whatever reason, using the lighter plug directly were not an option. I just did a Google search for "cigarette lighter to outlet adapter" and found several; the Duracell device looks essentially like a small power strip.

[seicer]

Yeah, they are pretty universal. It's an inverter converting DC to AC. You still have the limitations of the inverter's capabilities, which may have a 10A fuse, and you'll be limited to the capacity of the 12V plug, which is normally 10A.

Then you have to deal with starting watts and running watts. A small coffee maker will draw about 650 watts at the start and decrease. Add 10% when sizing for an inverter. Divide the wattage by 10 to account for inverter inefficiency to determine the current necessary for the inverter. If it's over 10A, you have to either install or use a second dedicated battery and wire or plug directly to that, or wire directly to the battery as a 12V outlet would get overloaded.

But that's all stuff that's easily replaceable. The other issue is the wire gauge - if you are running 650 watts through a 12V, the main issue becomes the wire itself (if the fuse doesn't break first). It is not designed for such loads and you know what happens when wires get too hot...

[kalvado]

Yeah, they are pretty universal. It's an inverter converting DC to AC. You still have the limitations of the inverter's capabilities, which may have a 10A fuse, and you'll be limited to the capacity of the 12V plug, which is normally 10A.

Then you have to deal with starting watts and running watts. A small coffee maker will draw about 650 watts at the start and decrease. Add 10% when sizing for an inverter. Divide the wattage by 10 to account for inverter inefficiency to determine the current necessary for the inverter. If it's over 10A, you have to either install or use a second dedicated battery and wire or plug directly to that, or wire directly to the battery as a 12V outlet would get overloaded.

But that's all stuff that's easily replaceable. The other issue is the wire gauge - if you are running 650 watts through a 12V, the main issue becomes the wire itself (if the fuse doesn't break first). It is not designed for such loads and you know what happens when wires get too hot...

Let me remind you where it started... From universal phone connection. And looks like we are pretty much in agreement that powering a phone from 12V connection is easy, but may require an adapter contemporary to the phone. That is a plug and play upgrade, unlike dealing with built in module (5V 2.4A in most cases)

[seicer]

Perhaps. But inverters also fail and repairing those is sometimes impossible (forced obsolescence). I had to tear one apart just to replace a fuse and then couldn't put it back together.

[Bruce]

The governor has yet to sign the bill: https://www.thechronicleonline.com/news/at-the-pump-senate-and-house-approve-self-service-gas-bill/article_25f04874-ae64-5a8f-8d95-0f60cdaf6936.html

[gonealookin]

The governor has yet to sign the bill...

But evidently she isn't going to veto it either, so it becomes state law no later than next week.

https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/2023/07/oregon-self-serve-gas-bill-will-become-law-as-kotek-declines-to-veto.html

Gov. Tina Kotek will allow a bill allowing self-serve gasoline across Oregon to become law, ending a 72-year ban on most drivers pumping their own gas.

Announcing a slate of potential vetoes Friday, as required by the Oregon Constitution, Kotek did not include House Bill 2426, which will permit Oregon gas stations to open up to half of their pumps for self-serve gas.
...
The bill will become law as soon as Kotek signs it, or else Aug. 4 if the governor declines to sign it.

Oregonians, you have a week to watch the "How To Pump Your Own Gas" Youtube video embedded in that article.

[kalvado]

The governor has yet to sign the bill...

But evidently she isn't going to veto it either, so it becomes state law no later than next week.

https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/2023/07/oregon-self-serve-gas-bill-will-become-law-as-kotek-declines-to-veto.html

Gov. Tina Kotek will allow a bill allowing self-serve gasoline across Oregon to become law, ending a 72-year ban on most drivers pumping their own gas.

Announcing a slate of potential vetoes Friday, as required by the Oregon Constitution, Kotek did not include House Bill 2426, which will permit Oregon gas stations to open up to half of their pumps for self-serve gas.
...
The bill will become law as soon as Kotek signs it, or else Aug. 4 if the governor declines to sign it.

Oregonians, you have a week to watch the "How To Pump Your Own Gas" Youtube video embedded in that article.

....up to a half of their pumps....

[gonealookin]

....up to a half of their pumps....

One wonders, though, how many of the larger stations (think the 16 or 20 pump places) will cut their staffing to only one employee at a time and try to drive the business to the self-serve pumps by creating even longer wait times.

[Jim]

They can't just give it up...  Not clear to me from that story: if one arrives at a station and all of the self service pumps are in use, would it be legal to pump your own gas at a full service pump?  I guess that would only make sense for the driver if the price is the same either way or the lines for self service are significant.

The only station I can think of near me (Amsterdam, NY) that offers full service does not charge extra at that one pump.  It might also be some of the Stewart's Shops gas pumps where I've seen a note that you can call/text into the store if you would like someone to come out and pump for you.  I doubt that incurs any additional charge.

[bing101]

Woah never knew that "Full Service" pumps even existed in some states. But in California self service is the norm for decades. The gas attendant thing sounds like stuff movies came up with for a great scene on "How things used to be" type scenarios.

[Rothman]

Woah never knew that "Full Service" pumps even existed in some states. But in California self service is the norm for decades. The gas attendant thing sounds like stuff movies came up with for a great scene on "How things used to be" type scenarios.

Kwik Fill in NY is full service.

[CtrlAltDel]

They can't just give it up...  Not clear to me from that story: if one arrives at a station and all of the self service pumps are in use, would it be legal to pump your own gas at a full service pump?

It's not especially clear. Here's the text:

A filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail may not designate more than the same number of fuel dispensing devices for self-service use by customers as are designated for attended service by an owner, operator or employee of the dispensary of Class 1 flammable liquids.

[US 89]

They can't just give it up...  Not clear to me from that story: if one arrives at a station and all of the self service pumps are in use, would it be legal to pump your own gas at a full service pump?

It's not especially clear. Here's the text:

A filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail may not designate more than the same number of fuel dispensing devices for self-service use by customers as are designated for attended service by an owner, operator or employee of the dispensary of Class 1 flammable liquids.

My read of that is no. If you come to a station where the self-serve pumps are full, you either have to wait for a spot to open or go to a full service pump where someone has to do it for you.

The whole thing is ridiculous and is a pretty good indicator of why I have no interest in moving to Oregon anytime soon. I still remember when I went to Seattle with my parents as a kid, we drove through Oregon on the way and weren't aware of the self-service ban. My dad got out of the car and put his card into the machine, and the attendant ran over from the other side of the station, looked at him as if he'd just killed someone, and accused him of stealing their gas. I wasn't impressed.

[Bruce]

The whole thing is ridiculous and is a pretty good indicator of why I have no interest in moving to Oregon anytime soon. I still remember when I went to Seattle with my parents as a kid, we drove through Oregon on the way and weren't aware of the self-service ban. My dad got out of the car and put his card into the machine, and the attendant ran over from the other side of the station, looked at him as if he'd just killed someone, and accused him of stealing their gas. I wasn't impressed.

Oregon has this weird contrarian streak in them, which also manifests in whether or not to add fluoride to drinking water (Portland said no).

[HighwayStar]

This was always a stupid requirement, so getting rid of it makes sense, but it does little to make me want to go to Oregon with the laundry list of other problems the state has.

[SSOWorld]

This was always a stupid requirement, so getting rid of it makes sense, but it does little to make me want to go to Oregon with the laundry list of other problems the state city of Portland has.

FIXED