Worthy (or Acceptable) Control Cities

[hobsini2]

In Detroit they start using Toledo as the control city at McNichols (Six Mile) Road and that's before you get downtown. When Kansas changes the control city to Des Moines you are already in Kansas City and using Kansas City, MO is just going to be confusing especially considering you are already in Kansas City. I-35 is a through route just like I-75 is in Detroit why wouldn't you use the next city?

I have no problem with Des Moines being used inside of the 435 Loop. Same as if I was coming south. Wichita is fine inside the 435 Loop.

[carbaugh2]

I agree with some of the prior Ohio comments, but here are my thoughts. Athens, Chillicothe, and Marietta all belong in Tier 3 with Zanesville. They are the hubs that come to mind when I think of Southeast Ohio (To me, Portsmouth's always feels like a separate category of Southern Ohio, but not Chillicothe, though I'm not sure why that is). I disagree with removing Marietta because West Virginia will not sign I-77 south as Charleston at the Ohio River. Rather, WVDOH will continue to use Parkersburg.

Speaking of West Virginia, my only suggestion is to move Beckley up to Tier 2. When traveling through, it feels as significant as Huntington, Morgantown, and Wheeling. It also has the 64-77 split just south of town.

[SkyPesos]

I disagree with removing Marietta because West Virginia will not sign I-77 south as Charleston at the Ohio River. Rather, WVDOH will continue to use Parkersburg.

Ohio don't have to base their control cities off of WV does, and WV is one of the bottom quarter states when it comes to control city choices anyways. It's like with signing I-80 for NYC; it's there even with PA using their mess of control cities further along the road.

[thspfc]

Wisconsin
Tier 1: Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay
Tier 2: Janesville/Beloit, Appleton, Oshkosh, Racine/Kenosha, Eau Claire, La Crosse, Waukesha
Tier 3: Wausau, Stevens Point, Wisconsin Dells, Fond du Lac, Beaver Dam, Sheboygan, Manitowoc, Superior
Tier 4: Portage, Tomah, Lake Geneva, Hudson, Menomonie, Marinette, Rhinelander, Sturgeon Bay, Shawano, Prairie du Chien, Dodgeville, Platteville, Rice Lake, Ashland, Hurley, Richland Center, Monroe, Watertown, Whitewater
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Rockford IL, Dubuque IA, Cedar Rapids IA, St Paul MN, Duluth MN, Marquette MI

Oshkosh, Racine, Kenosha, and Waukesha can be bumped to tier 3 in my opinion. Perhaps even tier 4 for Waukesha. I'd also put Beaver Dam in 4.

[carbaugh2]

I disagree with removing Marietta because West Virginia will not sign I-77 south as Charleston at the Ohio River. Rather, WVDOH will continue to use Parkersburg.

Ohio don't have to base their control cities off of WV does, and WV is one of the bottom quarter states when it comes to control city choices anyways. It's like with signing I-80 for NYC; it's there even with PA using their mess of control cities further along the road.

I disagree. States need to work together to maintain continuity and avoid driver confusion.

I'm not following your comment about control city choices, but I'm guessing it's based on state population. According to the 2020 census, Parkersburg is the third most populous city in West Virginia. It's small compared to cities in the nation, but it's an important city for West Virginia and will be signed as a control city there whether we are considering the OP or WVDOH.

In this case, ODOT's options are to sign I-77 south with Marietta, Parkersburg, or Charleston, the most populous city and West Virginia's state capital. While I certainly understand opting for Charleston, it is going to confuse the average traveler to sign Charleston in Ohio only for it to switch to Parkersburg across the river. I think ODOT makes the correct decision to sign one of the hubs of Southeast Ohio rather than a West Virginia city of similar size.


iPhone

[Daniel Fiddler]

Birmingham used to be the control city in Nashville for I-65.  Now it's Huntsville.

If I-65 actually traversed the actual city of Huntsville or was within 5 miles and if I-565 was at a different angle, I would agree with the control city being Huntsville, although currently I disagree.

If they are going to subdivide Nashville and Birmingham, they may as well subdivide Nashville and Memphis.

Jackson is not very large, Madison County has only 100,000 population while metropolitan Nashville has 2.2 million and metropolitan Memphis has 1.3 million.  And Jackson does not have any actual interstates.  However...

Jackson does have US 45 and US 412.  Both four-lane divided highways.  Actually, 45 is 45 E and W north of the city, but still.

Ocala, Gainesville, and Valdosta are control cities in Florida and Georgia.  Why not Jackson in Tennessee?

[US 89]

Huntsville is the largest city in Alabama by city proper population and has a metro of almost 500k, and that area is undergoing some significant growth. Jackson, TN is about 1/3 of that.

For the unfamiliar traveler, there is also a substantial risk of confusion with the more significant state capital of Jackson, Mississippi, and it is for this reason that the MS one is labeled "Jackson Miss" in Memphis. I was not aware there was a Jackson, TN until I drove through it on 40. In contrast, everyone has heard of Memphis and Nashville.

[I-55]

Huntsville is the largest city in Alabama by city proper population and has a metro of almost 500k, and that area is undergoing some significant growth. Jackson, TN is about 1/3 of that.

For the unfamiliar traveler, there is also a substantial risk of confusion with the more significant state capital of Jackson, Mississippi, and it is for this reason that the MS one is labeled "Jackson Miss" in Memphis. I was not aware there was a Jackson, TN until I drove through it on 40. In contrast, everyone has heard of Memphis and Nashville.

In the next 20 years or so I think a few things are going to happen:
1) Huntsville's sprawl reaches I-65 to the point that US 72 has no more farm fields between Athens and County Line Rd.
2) US 72 is widened in response to this growth
3) AL 53 is widened between Ardmore and Huntsville (potentially with a new or improved exit off I-65)

Certainly appropriate to have Huntsville as a control city, even if right now it is offline from I-65. At some point though I think Huntsville (or at least the continuous metro) starts eating into I-65's path.

[SkyPesos]

Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).

Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.

[freebrickproductions]

Huntsville is the largest city in Alabama by city proper population and has a metro of almost 500k, and that area is undergoing some significant growth. Jackson, TN is about 1/3 of that.

For the unfamiliar traveler, there is also a substantial risk of confusion with the more significant state capital of Jackson, Mississippi, and it is for this reason that the MS one is labeled "Jackson Miss" in Memphis. I was not aware there was a Jackson, TN until I drove through it on 40. In contrast, everyone has heard of Memphis and Nashville.

In the next 20 years or so I think a few things are going to happen:
1) Huntsville's sprawl reaches I-65 to the point that US 72 has no more farm fields between Athens and County Line Rd.
2) US 72 is widened in response to this growth
3) AL 53 is widened between Ardmore and Huntsville (potentially with a new or improved exit off I-65)

Certainly appropriate to have Huntsville as a control city, even if right now it is offline from I-65. At some point though I think Huntsville (or at least the continuous metro) starts eating into I-65's path.

Huntsville technically already crosses I-65 in two spots as well, per the city's website. Huntsville & the metro also seem to be growing along the I-565/AL 20 corridor between Decatur-proper and Huntsville/Madison County-proper. Almost certainly helped by the fact that there are frontage roads along I-565 in Limestone County.

As a side note, the mileage signs on I-65 in Tennessee going south out of Nashville still only list Birmingham on them, IIRC.

[hbelkins]

Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).

Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.

There is no comparison between Springfield, Mo., and Jackson, Tenn. Springfield is deserving of primary control city status (so too is Joplin due to it being an interstate crossroads now). And the control city north of St. Louis is Chicago, not Springfield, Ill.

[Flint1979]

Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).

Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.

There is no comparison between Springfield, Mo., and Jackson, Tenn. Springfield is deserving of primary control city status (so too is Joplin due to it being an interstate crossroads now). And the control city north of St. Louis is Chicago, not Springfield, Ill.

It's still going to confuse people

[freebrickproductions]

Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).

Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.

There is no comparison between Springfield, Mo., and Jackson, Tenn. Springfield is deserving of primary control city status (so too is Joplin due to it being an interstate crossroads now). And the control city north of St. Louis is Chicago, not Springfield, Ill.

It's still going to confuse people

I mean, if confusion's gonna be that big of an issue, you can always put the state abbreviation after the city name.

[MATraveler128]

Jackson, TN could be a primary control city whenever it becomes more well-known than Jackson, MS (so never).

Similarly, this is also why I support using Tulsa on I-44 WB in the St Louis area over Springfield, as there is the more well-known Springfield IL in close proximity.

There is no comparison between Springfield, Mo., and Jackson, Tenn. Springfield is deserving of primary control city status (so too is Joplin due to it being an interstate crossroads now). And the control city north of St. Louis is Chicago, not Springfield, Ill.

It's still going to confuse people

I mean, if confusion's gonna be that big of an issue, you can always put the state abbreviation after the city name.

This is exactly what Massachusetts does when signing out of state control cities. For example Portsmouth, NH, Providence, RI, Hartford, CT.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Minnesota
Tier 1: Minneapolis/St Paul, Duluth, Rochester
Tier 2: St Cloud, Bloomington, Mankato
Tier 3: Albert Lea, Bemidji, Grand Rapids, Alexandria, Willmar, Worthington, Winona, Fergus Falls, Marshall
Tier 4: Thief River Falls, International Falls, Virginia, Detroit Lakes, Owatonna, Fairmont, Austin, Red Wing, Hinckley
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Madison WI, Green Bay WI, Thunder Bay ON, Winnipeg MB, Grand Forks ND, Fargo ND, Sioux Falls, Des Moines IA, Cedar Rapids IA

Owatonna should probably be in tier 3 for US 14. It's 26,000 people, the site of two important junctions, and it's a fairly standalone city not really paired with anything else. MnDOT should probably use it over Waseca.

[Daniel Fiddler]

You're right.  Jackson, TN and Jackson, MS would confuse people.  So Jackson, TN would be out as a control city.

Keep Memphis and Nashville as the control cities.

[hobsini2]

Wisconsin
Tier 1: Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay
Tier 2: Janesville/Beloit, Appleton, Oshkosh, Racine/Kenosha, Eau Claire, La Crosse, Waukesha
Tier 3: Wausau, Stevens Point, Wisconsin Dells, Fond du Lac, Beaver Dam, Sheboygan, Manitowoc, Superior
Tier 4: Portage, Tomah, Lake Geneva, Hudson, Menomonie, Marinette, Rhinelander, Sturgeon Bay, Shawano, Prairie du Chien, Dodgeville, Platteville, Rice Lake, Ashland, Hurley, Richland Center, Monroe, Watertown, Whitewater
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Rockford IL, Dubuque IA, Cedar Rapids IA, St Paul MN, Duluth MN, Marquette MI

Oshkosh, Racine, Kenosha, and Waukesha can be bumped to tier 3 in my opinion. Perhaps even tier 4 for Waukesha. I'd also put Beaver Dam in 4.

Now that I think about it, yes Beaver Dam should be tier 4, not 3. As for your other suggested tier moves, I would keep Racine/Kenosha and Waukesha as a Tier 2 in the same way that they are exburbs of Milwaukee like how Aurora and Elgin are for Chicago.

[hobsini2]

Birmingham used to be the control city in Nashville for I-65.  Now it's Huntsville.

If I-65 actually traversed the actual city of Huntsville or was within 5 miles and if I-565 was at a different angle, I would agree with the control city being Huntsville, although currently I disagree.

If they are going to subdivide Nashville and Birmingham, they may as well subdivide Nashville and Memphis.

Jackson is not very large, Madison County has only 100,000 population while metropolitan Nashville has 2.2 million and metropolitan Memphis has 1.3 million.  And Jackson does not have any actual interstates.  However...

Jackson does have US 45 and US 412.  Both four-lane divided highways.  Actually, 45 is 45 E and W north of the city, but still.

Ocala, Gainesville, and Valdosta are control cities in Florida and Georgia.  Why not Jackson in Tennessee?

I know Birmingham used to be the control on I-65 out of Nashville. And I agree that it still should be. However, now with Huntsville being larger in pop, it is difficult to leave off Huntsville from Tier 1.

I do have Jackson on Tier 3 for Tennessee.

[hobsini2]

Minnesota
Tier 1: Minneapolis/St Paul, Duluth, Rochester
Tier 2: St Cloud, Bloomington, Mankato
Tier 3: Albert Lea, Bemidji, Grand Rapids, Alexandria, Willmar, Worthington, Winona, Fergus Falls, Marshall
Tier 4: Thief River Falls, International Falls, Virginia, Detroit Lakes, Owatonna, Fairmont, Austin, Red Wing, Hinckley
Outside cities: Chicago IL, Madison WI, Green Bay WI, Thunder Bay ON, Winnipeg MB, Grand Forks ND, Fargo ND, Sioux Falls, Des Moines IA, Cedar Rapids IA

Owatonna should probably be in tier 3 for US 14. It's 26,000 people, the site of two important junctions, and it's a fairly standalone city not really paired with anything else. MnDOT should probably use it over Waseca.

While I am familiar with Owatonna having lived in Minnesota for 2 years, I think most people outside of Southern Minnesota have not heard of it. Albert Lea and Mankato are the next most well known after Rochester IMO. That's why they are a tier up.

[mrsman]

Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.

From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city.  Until then, Downtown should be the control.

So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown.  From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange.  South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.

And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop.  It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.

[Flint1979]

Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.

From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city.  Until then, Downtown should be the control.

So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown.  From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange.  South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.

And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop.  It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.

I would argue that the SB control city should be Toledo at that point, you are already in Detroit and using Downtown doesn't do any good for a through route.

[tmoore952]

Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.

From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city.  Until then, Downtown should be the control.

So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown.  From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange.  South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.

And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop.  It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.

I would argue that the SB control city should be Toledo at that point, you are already in Detroit and using Downtown doesn't do any good for a through route.

I would think usage of "downtown" depends upon whether there are exits for downtown.

I haven't been to the north side of Philadelphia since I-95 got rerouted onto the PA Turnpike to go to NJ, so I don't know if what I'm about to say is still current. Before that, when you came south on I-95 and entered the city limits, the signs said Downtown Philadelphia until you got downtown (the I-676 exit), then it changed to Chester.

[hobsini2]

Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.

From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city.  Until then, Downtown should be the control.

So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown.  From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange.  South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.

And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop.  It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.

I would argue that the SB control city should be Toledo at that point, you are already in Detroit and using Downtown doesn't do any good for a through route.

I would think usage of "downtown" depends upon whether there are exits for downtown.

I haven't been to the north side of Philadelphia since I-95 got rerouted onto the PA Turnpike to go to NJ, so I don't know if what I'm about to say is still current. Before that, when you came south on I-95 and entered the city limits, the signs said Downtown Philadelphia until you got downtown (the I-676 exit), then it changed to Chester.

One could make a case for signing a through city over a Downtown if there is a split before Downtown. For example, the northbound signs at the Mitchell Interchange in Milwaukee could easily say Downtown Milwaukee AND Green Bay for I-43/94 since that is the preferred route from Chicago even though US/I-41 goes to Green Bay as well.
I think it's more of a case by case basis than just one flat rule.

[El-Caz]

From my vantage point, the next control city should be signed only once you pass through the Downtown of the city.  Until then, Downtown should be the control.

So in the Detroit area, even though the SB I-75 control begins to be Toledo once you cross into city limits, I would argue that the SB control at that point should be Downtown.  From 8 Mile Rd all the way to the 75/375 interchange.  South of 75/375 Toledo is an appropriate control.

And from that same perspective, I don't want to see Des Moines as a control for NB I-35 until I'm in Downtown Kansas City, which means somewhere in the area of the 35/70/670 loop.  It is too early to see it at I-435/35, or any where within Kansas for that matter.

Caltrans District 7 seems to go crazy doing stuff like this. For example, the control city on southbound I-5 is Los Angeles until the CA-110 interchange, where it switches to Santa Ana, despite 5 having been in and out of LA municipal limits for over 20 miles before that point. It's the same thing on I-10: at the merge with I-5, US-101's signed northbound for Los Angeles, about a mile from downtown.

[Flint1979]

Toledo is acceptable it starts at 7 Mile actually, at 8 Mile the control city is still Detroit. I-96 uses downtown and then before it even gets downtown uses Bridge to Canada.