Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

[Rothman]

Whether or not there is a change in MDTA's mind -- I'm documenting the consequences of their choices. That's not fiction. That's archival clarity.

O.o

You're exaggerating the importance of posting public on here or anywhere else you (or I) do on the Internet...and I'm struggling to put that mildly.  No one cares or will care that you posted somewhere on the Internet that you were against the bridge replacement, even if the new bridge somehow gets hit.

At best, the few quality posts on AARoads are helpful within our own little community for whatever niche personal interests exist and that's pretty much it.

Fantasizing about people in some future saying, "If only we listened to Beltway" might be comforting ego-stroking (hey, we all do it), but in fantasy it will remain.

Fictional Highways is open only to members who are logged on. IOW not to non-members like in this group and I want them to be able to see my posts -- some of which will read them weeks to years in the future.

That is not a negotiable solution.

Sounds like the correct solution is to get a personal blog, since that's how you seem to want to use the forum.

^This actually might be the seriously best idea for Beltway, given his stated intentions.  Then again, that runs the risk of not having the captive audience he has here and revealing the true level of interest in opinions regarding transportation infrastructure.

[Scott5114]

You're exaggerating the importance of posting public on here or anywhere else you (or I) do on the Internet...and I'm struggling to put that mildly.  No one cares or will care that you posted somewhere on the Internet that you were against the bridge replacement, even if the new bridge somehow gets hit.

At best, the few quality posts on AARoads are helpful within our own little community for whatever niche personal interests exist and that's pretty much it.

Even on the AARoads Wiki, which is closest thing the road community has to an actual archival project, it's hard to see how archival of this subject would need any more than a sentence reading "MDTA considered and rejected a no-build option."

[Max Rockatansky]

Personal blogs take a lot of work.  Even then, you aren't likely going to garner much interest. Even less so if you stick to name brand topics like Interstate anything. 

[kphoger]

Sounds like the correct solution is to get a personal blog, since that's how you seem to want to use the forum.

If only Scott had some such site where he could express himself freely and nobody were to argue with him.  If only...

I am not going to create a thread in Fictional Highways

Then don't.  Fine.  Just don't keep posting your fantasy in this non-fictional thread.

Besides an outer harbor tunnel is not "fictional" if you know the history of the crossing.

Even if you do know the history of the crossing, it is still fictional.

Phrases used in the sticky at the top of the Fictional Highways board:

"not seriously considered by the pertinent road agency
"what would be nice if anything were possible
"unless you're talking about solid plans
"keep threads in the other boards on-topic by removing fictional highway ideas to this board

Whether or not there is a change in MDTA's mind -- I'm documenting the consequences of their choices. That's not fiction. That's archival clarity.

You're documenting your thoughts and opinions about the potential consequences of their choices, and your personally preferred hypothetical alternative solutions.  That's not the same thing as archiving history.

Besides which, this forum is not a historical archive.  It's a public discussion board.  You have your own sites for archiving whatever you feel like archiving.

[Max Rockatansky]

Beltway has espoused similar views on private road groups off forum as well.  Those aren't visible to those who aren't group members.  How is that tangibly different than the Fictional board here?

[Henry]

Let's get back on track with the following story...

This man owns what's probably the last vehicle to ever cross the bridge before it collapsed; since then, he's left his former bakery job:

https://wtop.com/baltimore/2025/03/hfr-thu-am-he-was-driving-one-of-the-final-cars-to-cross-baltimores-key-bridge-before-it-collapsed/

[Rothman]

Sounds like the correct solution is to get a personal blog, since that's how you seem to want to use the forum.

If only Scott had some such site where he could express himself freely and nobody were to argue with him.  If only...

Dear heavens.  Instead of using AI to post on here, he could update that site of his.

[kphoger]

Aww, now I'm disappointed to realize that Dan didn't compose that brilliant poetry himself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/copypasta/comments/1aojxmr/i_want_to_fuck_a_woman_as_a_horse/

[Rothman]

Aww, now I'm disappointed to realize that Dan didn't compose that brilliant poetry himself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/copypasta/comments/1aojxmr/i_want_to_fuck_a_woman_as_a_horse/

Of course it's copypasta...

[Max Rockatansky]

Sounds like the correct solution is to get a personal blog, since that's how you seem to want to use the forum.

If only Scott had some such site where he could express himself freely and nobody were to argue with him.  If only...

Dear heavens.  Instead of using AI to post on here, he could update that site of his.

ALso kind of proves the point I was trying to make a couple posts back about blogs and gathering interest.

[Strider]

Yes, but my solution would be worth considering, and I don't consider it redundant -- actually it makes sense to have a separate thread for construction.
A Key Bridge Rebuild thread that would track any and all news and updates therein. The rules would restrict it to current MDTA plans and designs only. Posters who love the project and MDTA and think that it is the Cat's Meow would enjoy it.
This thread would be for general info pertinent to the thread title and aftermath.

Take it to MdTA if you want to, however you're not going to convince them as the decision was already made. Move your arguments to Fictional Highways part and go from there. I want to see updates regarding the Francis Scott Key (I-695) bridge rebuild, not your arguments.
The admin already informed you that you are welcome to create a thread in the Fictional Highways, so don't be a stubborn person.

I am not going to create a thread in Fictional Highways -- as I said unlike nearly every other thread it is not visible to non-members. Besides an outer harbor tunnel is not "fictional" if you know the history of the crossing.

Whether or not there is a change in MDTA's mind -- I'm documenting the consequences of their choices. That's not fiction. That's archival clarity.

Do you know the history of the I-266 Three Sisters Bridge?

Sounds like a YOU problem. Good luck and don't tell me I didn't warn you.

[1995hoo]

....

The existing 12 Interstate lanes across the harbor carry about 225,000 AADT and that is not excessive. As far as HAZMAT, that was only about 400 shipments per day, hardly justification for spending $2 billion, and they can think creatively and say allow escorted HAZMAT shipments between 1 and 5 AM in the Fort McHenry Tunnel outer tubes.

....

Why would they need to allow hazmats through the tunnel at all? Why can't they just go the long way around the other side of I-695? I recognize it's a much longer drive, of course, but taking longer routes is somewhat inherent in shipping anyway.

I'd still like to hear the answer to my question above. I was asking it as a serious question, not as an attempt to argue or ridicule his position or sidetrack things. I genuinely found his comment puzzling under the circumstances.

[vdeane]

If only Scott had some such site where he could express himself freely and nobody were to argue with him.  If only...

Something tells me if he'd be satisfied by that, he'd have done that.  Some people like the arguments.  Reminds me of when some people left mainstream social media over "censorship" in favor of founding their own sites only to get mad when the people who disagreed with them didn't follow them over there to keep arguing.

....

The existing 12 Interstate lanes across the harbor carry about 225,000 AADT and that is not excessive. As far as HAZMAT, that was only about 400 shipments per day, hardly justification for spending $2 billion, and they can think creatively and say allow escorted HAZMAT shipments between 1 and 5 AM in the Fort McHenry Tunnel outer tubes.

....

Why would they need to allow hazmats through the tunnel at all? Why can't they just go the long way around the other side of I-695? I recognize it's a much longer drive, of course, but taking longer routes is somewhat inherent in shipping anyway.

I'd still like to hear the answer to my question above. I was asking it as a serious question, not as an attempt to argue or ridicule his position or sidetrack things. I genuinely found his comment puzzling under the circumstances.

I think this was an attempt to deal with the point about replacing the bridge with a tunnel (or nothing at all) taking away a hazmat route.

[kphoger]

Some people like the arguments.

Sweet dreams are made of this.  Who am I to disagree?

[1995hoo]

....

I'd still like to hear the answer to my question above. I was asking it as a serious question, not as an attempt to argue or ridicule his position or sidetrack things. I genuinely found his comment puzzling under the circumstances.

I think this was an attempt to deal with the point about replacing the bridge with a tunnel (or nothing at all) taking away a hazmat route.

Of course it was, but that doesn't answer my question about why using the Fort McHenry Tunnel would be necessary to replace the hazmat route. There is already a replacement route that is presumably in use right now, though obviously I recognize it is by no means the most efficient routing in an ideal world.

[1995hoo]

Some people like the arguments.

Sweet dreams are made of this.  Who am I to disagree?

[kphoger]

Imagine walking through the grocery store, seeing that sign, but you don't know the song.

[Beltway]

The existing 12 Interstate lanes across the harbor carry about 225,000 AADT and that is not excessive. As far as HAZMAT, that was only about 400 shipments per day, hardly justification for spending $2 billion, and they can think creatively and say allow escorted HAZMAT shipments between 1 and 5 AM in the Fort McHenry Tunnel outer tubes.

Why would they need to allow hazmats through the tunnel at all? Why can't they just go the long way around the other side of I-695? I recognize it's a much longer drive, of course, but taking longer routes is somewhat inherent in shipping anyway.

I'd still like to hear the answer to my question above. I was asking it as a serious question, not as an attempt to argue or ridicule his position or sidetrack things. I genuinely found his comment puzzling under the circumstances.

Two things that go together.

The systems analyst side of me (my most prominent career role) looks at alternatives and lays them out and lists the pros and cons of each and ranks them. They may or may not look feasible.

Not here much, but on other Facebook and YouTube forums that discuss this incident all sorts of posters in the Baltimore area are complaining loudly and frequently about having to use I-695 West when they used to use the bridge. To the point where I looked at possible interim solutions.

So you provided feedback basically that you do what you have to do -- in this case just accept using the longer route for now. No changes are needed to the operations of the road system itself, just take the longer all-freeway surface route.

The cargo doesn't care how long it takes, and the shipping industry provides the needed fee structure for each shipment. The truck driver gets paid for the mileage of the trip -- it is his vocation.

There is another factor -- some of those complaining are not truckers but private operators of RVs and with the standard propane tanks they are not allowed to use the tunnels.

Virginia handles that by allowing them in all tunnels even the oldest -- each has an inspection area before the tunnel whereby any hazmat vehicle is required to stop for inspection. If they fail there is a ramp from the inspection area to the closest major surface road.

You must ensure that your propane tanks are completely shut off before entering the tunnel. There are inspection stations where you can stop to turn off your propane tanks. It's crucial to follow these rules as there are enforcement measures in place, and failure to comply could result in fines.

Inspection Stations -- Before entering the tunnel, there are designated areas where you might be inspected. The process involves verifying that your propane tanks are off and that there are no leaks. Sometimes, an inspector might physically check, but other times, signaling that the tanks are off might suffice. It only takes a few minutes.

The fact that Maryland does not do this is on them. It would be an apparent interim solution.

[jeffandnicole]

The cargo doesn't care how long it takes, and the shipping industry provides the needed fee structure for each shipment. The truck driver gets paid for the mileage of the trip -- it is his vocation.

Not normally said by truckers: I hope they give me a longer route so I can rack up the miles.  Most truckers want to get to their destination and get home, or get to the next job. Miles equal more maintenance.  More miles = more time = more chances of delays.  There's numerous reasons why truckers really don't want to drive longer than they need to.

Cargo does care to get to its destination timely.  Produce needs to get to the market.  Products need to get to the stores.  Orders need to get to the recipients.  Maybe it sits in a warehouse, but at least the business has control over it at that point, and it's available to them whenever they decide to put it out on a sales floor, or market it for sale.

[Beltway]

The cargo doesn't care how long it takes, and the shipping industry provides the needed fee structure for each shipment. The truck driver gets paid for the mileage of the trip -- it is his vocation.

Not normally said by truckers: I hope they give me a longer route so I can rack up the miles.  Most truckers want to get to their destination and get home, or get to the next job. Miles equal more maintenance.  More miles = more time = more chances of delays.  There's numerous reasons why truckers really don't want to drive longer than they need to.

Hazmat drivers are among the best-paid in the trucking industry. Of course the standards and qualifications are much higher.

Cargo does care to get to its destination timely.  Produce needs to get to the market.  Products need to get to the stores.  Orders need to get to the recipients.  Maybe it sits in a warehouse, but at least the business has control over it at that point, and it's available to them whenever they decide to put it out on a sales floor, or market it for sale.

You have to do what you have to do within the constraints. Some hazmat cargos and some hazmat drivers would like to get from South Hampton Roads to the Virginia Eastern Shore on US-13 -- but that won't happen until both parallel tunnel projects are complete. Based on prevailing polices there it is likely that it will. Their route now is a bit lengthy.