Metric Signs

[KillerTux]

Really interesting article. I didn't not know these signs existed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/us/15highway.html?src=mv

[iwishiwascanadian]

They exist mainly close to the border and within border states.  I haven't seen BGS's signed exclusively signed in metric, but I have seen others. 

[Bickendan]

I can't remember when I heard about ADOT wanting to switch I-19 from metric to miles, but I was disappointed. At least they're suspending it... for now.

[mgk920]

Interesting in that such a large percentage of the locals along the way want the metric to stay.

Mike

[corco]

IIRC, the signs north of Ajo Way in Tucson along I-19 are now in English, which would be added confusion.

That said, I hope the signs remain metric, especially after reading this article.

[huskeroadgeek]

I don't really see the changing exit numbers as that big of a deal-it's not unlike the states that changed numbers when they switched from sequential numbering to mile-based numbering. Personally, I think it seems a little ridiculous to like them just because of their unique nature. If I had my choice, I'd switch them to miles. But if there's a lot of local opposition to changing them, then it probably isn't worth the controversy.

[KEK Inc.]

I don't really see the changing exit numbers as that big of a deal-it's not unlike the states that changed numbers when they switched from sequential numbering to mile-based numbering. Personally, I think it seems a little ridiculous to like them just because of their unique nature. If I had my choice, I'd switch them to miles. But if there's a lot of local opposition to changing them, then it probably isn't worth the controversy.

What's wrong with the metric system?  Eventually, we'll switch over...

I believe the MUTCD actually has had metric signs.   Note that all metric speeds are circumscribed, and some regulatory signs have a warning sign above it indicating METRIC.  Obviously, if we do switch, we'll have to have a transition period with both signage in place (except distance). 













Source

[huskeroadgeek]

I don't really see the changing exit numbers as that big of a deal-it's not unlike the states that changed numbers when they switched from sequential numbering to mile-based numbering. Personally, I think it seems a little ridiculous to like them just because of their unique nature. If I had my choice, I'd switch them to miles. But if there's a lot of local opposition to changing them, then it probably isn't worth the controversy.

What's wrong with the metric system?  Eventually, we'll switch over...

I've been hearing that since the late 70s when I was in school and we had some woman come in especially to teach us about the metric system because as we were told at the time, we were going to be completely converting to it soon. I don't see that we're any closer to doing it now than we were 30 years ago. And that's fine with me.
For road signs, I don't think anything has been done with it since the mid 90s. I believe there had been a mandate that all road signs were to be converted to metric by 1996, but the 1995 highway bill removed that mandate and originally delayed it until 2000, but the 1998 highway bill removed it permanently. As far as I know, the issue hasn't even been revisited since then, and I've heard almost no recent discussion of the issue.

[Bickendan]

I don't really see the changing exit numbers as that big of a deal-it's not unlike the states that changed numbers when they switched from sequential numbering to mile-based numbering. Personally, I think it seems a little ridiculous to like them just because of their unique nature. If I had my choice, I'd switch them to miles. But if there's a lot of local opposition to changing them, then it probably isn't worth the controversy.

What's wrong with the metric system?  Eventually, we'll switch over...

That may be true, just don't hold your breath

Ideally, those circles would be red. That way, once the transition's been made and everyone's used to it, these signs could then be transitioned to the international standard, the red-bordered circle shield.

Incidentally, that also provides an incentive to rid ourselves of all circle shields for state highways -- circles would only be for speed limits!

[KEK Inc.]

The MUTCD is still evolving concepts on metric signs, regardless.  The 2009 MUTCD has some metric updates. 

@ Bick:  Yeah, red would be nice.  Also, blue circles with white borders are the international standard for minimum speeds.  I'd be content with a blue circle, though. 

I wonder what maps would do about state routes.  There's only a couple of states that still have round shields.

[J N Winkler]

My thanks to KillerTux for posting the link to the NY Times article--I wondered what had become of the proposed I-19 signs replacement.

Arizona DOT set up this webpage to gather public comment on the "Old Exit XX" compromise proposal:

http://www.azdot.gov/i19signage/

The ARRA money originally allocated for the I-19 signs job was apparently moved to an I-10 pavement preservation job.  Personally, I think Arizona DOT should resurrect the approach toward metric signing embodied in the 1981 signs (which generally did not have explicit units except in contexts where explicit English units would be shown on English-unit signs) rather than the 1998 signs (which had "km" and "meters" everywhere, including on interchange sequence and distance signs).

[KEK Inc.]

Is this Clearview, I spy?  I didn't know Arizona switched over to Clearview now... 

[J N Winkler]

Yup, Arizona DOT has gone over to Clearview in a big way, and I think all or nearly all of I-10 has been changed over now.  Ground zero for Clearview in Arizona was (I think) Hovatter-SR 85 (on I-10 west of Phoenix; this length includes the exit for the Palo Verde nuclear plant).  Tucson to the New Mexico state line got changed over in two contracts (Craycroft Rd.-Willcox and Willcox-New Mexico state line).  I-40 has had its signs largely changed out in the last 10 years so I don't expect it to be up for conversion to Clearview in short order, but Arizona DOT has Hipkoe-Goodwater in design.

[KEK Inc.]

Yup, Arizona DOT has gone over to Clearview in a big way, and I think all or nearly all of I-10 has been changed over now.  Ground zero for Clearview in Arizona was (I think) Hovatter-SR 85 (on I-10 west of Phoenix; this length includes the exit for the Palo Verde nuclear plant).  Tucson to the New Mexico state line got changed over in two contracts (Craycroft Rd.-Willcox and Willcox-New Mexico state line).  I-40 has had its signs largely changed out in the last 10 years so I don't expect it to be up for conversion to Clearview in short order, but Arizona DOT has Hipkoe-Goodwater in design.

Man, I used to admire Arizona for their road signs.    I love the way they handle exit tabs (well the shorter ones...  I don't like the obnoxiously tall ones).  They're more vanilla than most states in the west. 

[Brandon]

I don't really see the changing exit numbers as that big of a deal-it's not unlike the states that changed numbers when they switched from sequential numbering to mile-based numbering. Personally, I think it seems a little ridiculous to like them just because of their unique nature. If I had my choice, I'd switch them to miles. But if there's a lot of local opposition to changing them, then it probably isn't worth the controversy.

What's wrong with the metric system?  Eventually, we'll switch over...

Why?  Switching over for industry and business is fine, but for road distances and speeds, it makes little practical sense to do so.  We border Mexico and Canada which both use the metric system eextensively on their road systems, but we don't have much cross border traffic with them in the sense that Europe has a lot of cross border traffic.  With this in mind, what's the point?  I hate to say it, but the metric system fails in many ways for distance measurement within the US (and even for that matter, in Canada).  Everything is laid out using sections, not hecatres, hence miles simply make more sense than kilometers.  I drove in Cozumel over the past week, and metric makes sense there since the area was laid out using metric.  Here, it does not since it is not.

Personally, I favor a dual system with both sets of measures for volume and weight, but distances make more sense in miles and fractions thereof.

[Duke87]

Americans do not think in terms of metric units. Signs which include them are solely a convenience to foreigners, hence why you mostly see them near the border.


The circle on metric speed limit signs is, of course, a nod to the standard form of such signs outside of North America. I don't see where making it red would be much of an issue practically speaking, but current practice demands that regulatory signs simply be black and white, so don't count on it.
As for an eventual changeover of all speed limit signs to the red circle format... nah, no point. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our way of doing it; changing anything merely for the sake of doing it the same way everyone else does is silly.
(besides, Canada follows our standard. We'd be introducing a lot of local inconsistency by switching)

[Ian]

That's a shame. Any idea when these are going to be replaced? I wish ADOT would put bilingual distances on the signs, similar to what they do in New Hampshire and on the Maine Turnpike.

IIRC, DE 1 in Delaware used to have all metric signs. They switched to english distance signs shortly, yet they kept the same exit numbers!

[Mr_Northside]

I haven't seen BGS's signed exclusively signed in metric, but I have seen others. 

I can't completely recall if they were exclusively metric, and don't know if it's still that way, but on our way back from our 1st Lebowskifest in Louisville, we ended up on I-265 from I-64 to I-71, and I think everything was in metric.  (Though the only border that's close to is the state of Indiana).

[rawmustard]

I can't completely recall if they were exclusively metric, and don't know if it's still that way, but on our way back from our 1st Lebowskifest in Louisville, we ended up on I-265 from I-64 to I-71, and I think everything was in metric.  (Though the only border that's close to is the state of Indiana).

I remember advance BGSes with both metric and customary for the Westport Road and possibly the Brownsboro Road interchanges. Since I haven't been that way in recent years, I wouldn't know if they're still that way.

[Revive 755]

There used to be signs on interstates in Illinois that had [Control City]/100 Miles/161 Kilometer or [Control City]/62 Miles/100 Kilometers, but those seem to have disappeared.  I think there used to be similar signs in Missouri.

And for any future switch, I hope those considering it actually think about how much fun it can make trying to develop new highway plans when the old ones in English units won't convert well - as going from the metric plans in the brief 1990's stint back to English units is as much fun as sitting on a flaming chair.

[DollarBill]

I say keep it metric. Its unique. But what the hell is it with metric speeds surrounded by a circle? I dont get it...

[mgk920]

I say keep it metric. Its unique. But what the hell is it with metric speeds surrounded by a circle? I dont get it...

One, it is to differentiate them from speeds given in Olde Englische units, and
Two, in the rest of the World outside of Canada and the USA, speed limit signs show the limit as a number inside of a red circle.  They are in MPH is the UK and km/h throughout the rest of the World.

Mike

[jemacedo9]

IIRC, DE 1 in Delaware used to have all metric signs. They switched to english distance signs shortly, yet they kept the same exit numbers!

In some cases on DE 1, when they did switch to miles, they just slapped the "xx MILES" over the old "XX km" part, so the sign would state 1 mile when it was really closer to 1/2 mile.    And yes, they did keep the exit numbers from the km distances.

as far as the community upset about the new exit numbers, plenty of states have switched over the past decade and all of the "confusion" ended up being pretty minimal.  I know PA and VA switched about 10 years ago, and PA, several of the "OLD EXIT XX" signs are still up.

[Brandon]

I say keep it metric. Its unique. But what the hell is it with metric speeds surrounded by a circle? I dont get it...

For some reason, Europe chose to use circles for regulatory signage.  Problem is, that's specifically reserved for railroad crossing ahead signage in the MUTCD.  Why the European system chose not to have a specific symbol for railroad crossing ahead signage is beyond me.  They claim to be big on symbols, yet all their signs look alike.  Here, the RR crossing and RR crossing ahead, the school crossing, the stop sign, and the yield sign are symbols in their own right and can be read even when the text has been completely sandblasted off.  Even the early stop signs in Europe were circular.

[english si]

Yield in Europe has the unique upside down triangle. Actually pay some attention to European signage before going "it's all crap".

There's only so many shapes you can make signs - Europe went with circles for legal stuff (red-ringed prohibitions, white on blue mandatory requirements), triangles for warning stuff (so even if you can't discern one of the many very distinct symbols on that, you know you have been told to look out) and rectangles for information signage. STOP and Yield/Give Way have special shapes and most countries have one for pedestrian crossings (the UK tends to use either traffic lights or big yellow balls on stripy poles to mark official, peds have right-of-way at some point, crossings so don't have a special symbol).

Most importantly for this discussion, we also have an X-type shape for level crossings, going beneath the warning triangle with a picture of a train, with a gate, or without a gate, dependant on the crossing (none of this RR rubbish, that even people who have English as a first language might only get because they've seen films). We also put wig-wag flashing orange balls warning of a hazard, which go on when a train is coming and turn off only after it's gone (unless another one comes).

I think, what with the flashing lights, gates (if the road is in anyway busy) with bells, whistles and lights on and the special X-shaped sign under the warning sign with a picture of a train on it, European crossings are pretty obvious - at least as much so as their American counterparts, if not more so.