US 111 proposed in Kentucky and Tennessee

[Molandfreak]

Hot take, but any three-digit highway involving a 1 should use a two-digit shield. There's just too much wasted space there, encouraging ugly stuff like this to happen. Any one-digit US highway or two-digit including a 1 should use the 1961 spec shield; there is no legibility benefit to widening the shield for those numbers.

I don't think that's solely a three-digit issue:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/Fy1E1nBMjHn3KKPcA

Which is part of the point. The number 11 works best in a 1961-spec shield, and the number 111 works best in a 1971-spec two-digit shield.Get me a jury and show me how to make "111" look good in a three-digit shield and I'll... make cheese for you.

[PColumbus73]

Sounds like a reasonable proposal. I think the intersections could be reworked in Somerset to have a continuous route instead of the two right turns to stay on the proposed US 111.

I can see why Tennessee would prefer 111 since it would replace the existing TN highway which I would guess is pretty important to the area. If it does go through, hopefully it comes with decommissioning routes like KY 461 and 1247. I think 111 could end at US 25 instead of having a 3/4 mile concurrency to I-75.

Side note: This sign placement is awful, completely hidden by the overpasses:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.032378,-85.3187463,3a,32.8y,131.09h,94.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swPsKonnaDKqee_QkrIDIlw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkwNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[hbelkins]

Keep in mind that TN 111 has already changed numbers once, at least the part from Cookeville to Static. It used to be TN 42, and there were even a few residual TN 42 mileage markers left along the route the last time I drove it.

I'm pretty sure that the KY 461 designation would be eliminated should the US 111 designation be applied.

As an alternative to having the US 25/US 111 concurrency, how about routing US 25 on I-75 and extending US 150 southeasterly to end at I-75?

[Mapmikey]

Hot take, but any three-digit highway involving a 1 should use a two-digit shield. There's just too much wasted space there, encouraging ugly stuff like this to happen. Any one-digit US highway or two-digit including a 1 should use the 1961 spec shield; there is no legibility benefit to widening the shield for those numbers.

It is possible to make 111 look decent in a 3-digit VA shield
https://maps.app.goo.gl/sFkBZBMdhsbNFMdu7

[wriddle082]

Hot take, but any three-digit highway involving a 1 should use a two-digit shield. There's just too much wasted space there, encouraging ugly stuff like this to happen. Any one-digit US highway or two-digit including a 1 should use the 1961 spec shield; there is no legibility benefit to widening the shield for those numbers.

It is possible to make 111 look decent in a 3-digit VA shield
https://maps.app.goo.gl/sFkBZBMdhsbNFMdu7

Indeed it is, and this is the type of spacing I would expect TDOT to use on a 3-digit shield.

At least I hope they don't try to do what Texas and Florida like to do with 3di interstate shields!

[hbelkins]

Update: A resolution has been filed in the Kentucky General Assembly urging KYTC and TDOT to petition AASHTO for the US 111 designation.

https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/recorddocuments/bill/25RS/hcr61/orig_bill.pdf

[usends]

Update: A resolution has been filed in the Kentucky General Assembly urging KYTC and TDOT to petition AASHTO for the US 111 designation.
https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/recorddocuments/bill/25RS/hcr61/orig_bill.pdf

That resolution ^ describes the south terminus as follows...

Tennessee Route 153 from the United States Highway 27 intersection to the United States Highway 11/64 intersection just before Interstate 75.

...which is absurd, because why would you not replace all of TN 153, all the way to I-75?  Ultimately of course that segment would be up to TDOT (not KYTC), but still, the KGA didn't think that through.  At least they demonstrate an awareness of US route numbering conventions:

The proposed petition includes United States Highway 27 and Tennessee Route 153 in order to follow AASHTO's general principle that three-digit federal routes should be spur routes of a two-digit federal route, with its number incorporated as the last two digits of the spur route. If AASHTO does not deem this necessary, and Tennessee does not wish to extend United States Highway 111 to United States Highway 11, the last two segments in subsections (8) and (9) of Section 1 of this Resolution may be considered optional.

"Federal route" is a misleading term, but it's uttered surprisingly often by gov't officials, and even by state DOTs.

[The Ghostbuster]

We'll have to see whether this goofy proposal is actually implemented. Then again, they approved US 163, US 191 (the senseless rerouting between West Yellowstone, MT and Douglas, AZ), US 400, US 412, and US 425, when none of those routes come anywhere close to US 12, US 25, US 63, or what's left of US 91.

[Scott5114]

Which is part of the point. The number 11 works best in a 1961-spec shield, and the number 111 works best in a 1971-spec two-digit shield.Get me a jury and show me how to make "111" look good in a three-digit shield and I'll... make cheese for you.

Colby is my favorite, in case you were wondering.

[Molandfreak]

We'll have to see whether this goofy proposal is actually implemented. Then again, they approved US 163, US 191 (the senseless rerouting between West Yellowstone, MT and Douglas, AZ), US 400, US 412, and US 425, when none of those routes come anywhere close to US 12, US 25, US 63, or what's left of US 91.

Senseless? I suppose they could have extended 666 instead, but the 191 extension was very logical.

[74/171FAN]

We'll have to see whether this goofy proposal is actually implemented. Then again, they approved US 163, US 191 (the senseless rerouting between West Yellowstone, MT and Douglas, AZ), US 400, US 412, and US 425, when none of those routes come anywhere close to US 12, US 25, US 63, or what's left of US 91.

The only goofy thing about this proposal was that it may have followed a useless concurrency with US 27 to Chattanooga so as long as TDOT gets it all the way to I-75 along TN 153 I think the goofiness is no where near this one.

[Avalanchez71]

Chattanooga is full of useless concurrencies.  They already have a wacky routing where one would think US 41 should follow the route of US 11 and vice-versa.  They should number this US 25W.  The current US 25W could become US 25 or US 25C.

[usends]

Putting a little more thought into whether this corridor deserves a US route designation.  According to GMaps, it would be 216 miles, 3:54 travel time.

The proposed endpoints are already served by I-75 (218 miles, 3:23).  Ah, but you want to avoid Knoxville?  Well, you could instead drive almost the entire thing on US 27 (206 miles, 4:08).  Or you could drive the majority of it via US 127 (219 miles, 4:24).  Point being: how many inter-state designations do we need between Chattanooga and Mt. Vernon?

Another question: currently there's an unrelated KY hwy. 111 to the north of this proposed corridor.  Does KYTC allow US and SH routes with the same number?

Reason I ask is: there was a time in AASH(T)O's history when they would tell the state DOTs, "Hey, if you're serious about a US route for your proposed corridor, let's see you prove it by unifying the entire corridor with a single state highway designation."  Some states took them up on this, e.g. US 287 north of Yellowstone was initially unified under the MT 287 designation.

I wonder if it would be wise for AASHTO to go back to that procedure.  In this case, I think KY and TN interests would find that KY 111/TN 111 would accomplish what they want to achieve.  KYTC and TDOT would then decide to leave well-enough alone, and TNDOT could avoid the expense of replacing all their SH 111 signs with US 111.

[hbelkins]

Another question: currently there's an unrelated KY hwy. 111 to the north of this proposed corridor.  Does KYTC allow US and SH routes with the same number?

US 79 and KY 79 is a glaring exception, even though there has never been a continuous US 79/KY 79 corridor. US 79 ends at US 68 east of downtown Russellville, while KY 79 begins north of downtown at old US 431.

US 52 and KY 52 is another exception, but Kentucky does not officially recognize US 52 as the two short segments in Pike County are maintained by West Virginia.

When I-24 was opened, KY 24 in northeastern Kentucky was renumbered to KY 324, KY 474, and KY 344. Yet nothing similar has been done for KY 69 (which is actually in the same area as I-69), KY 165, or KY 169. So who knows what KYTC might decide to do?

As far as Knoxville bypasses go, US 27 is a lot better route than US 127, especially the Tennessee portion.

[Molandfreak]

The argument that this is already better served by I-75 is why I would prefer an alignment in Kentucky moving northwest towards Elizabethtown. That is the real undefined corridor here that could be useful as a US highway. Call it a spiritual successor to the US 37 proposal.

[hbelkins]

The argument that this is already better served by I-75 is why I would prefer an alignment in Kentucky moving northwest towards Elizabethtown. That is the real undefined corridor here that could be useful as a US highway. Call it a spiritual successor to the US 37 proposal.

We're moving into fictional territory here, but Kentucky has been working on a 2+1 reconfiguration of the KY 55-KY 555 corridor between Columbia (the Cumberland Parkway/Future I-365) and the Bluegrass Parkway, often called the Heartland Parkway. Add to that the TN 53/TN 56/KY 61 corridor between I-40 and Columbia, which is a modern two-lane highway, and the KY 555/US 62/KY 248/KY 44/KY 55/KY 155 corridor between the Bluegrass Parkway and I-265, which is also a modern two-lane road, and there you go.