Europe’s Electric Vehicle Woes Are a Lesson for E.V.s Everywhere

[ZLoth]

From The New Republic:

Europe's Electric Vehicle Woes Are a Lesson for E.V.s Everywhere
Stellantis is struggling, and blaming governments for not supporting electric vehicles. Workers say the problem is the CEOs, instead.

Electric cars got top billing at this year's Paris Auto Show. At the world's largest such showcase, a central exhibition hall featured an "electric factory" display designed, in the colors of the French flag, to mimic the spine-like assembly lines that churn out electric cars and internal combustion engines. Along the exteriors of those lines were a series of questions answered inside them, where clumps of teens on school trips and car enthusiasts stood by ready to hear the answers: Are electric vehicles produced in France? What new professions are created by electric vehicle production? Just outside the exhibition grounds, autoworkers who spend their days in real-world auto factories had a question of their own: Why are so many of them losing their jobs?

FULL ARTICLE HERE

[Max Rockatansky]

Stellantis just sucks in general.  They are presently driving the Dodge and Chrysler brands into the ground.  It wouldn't surprise me both disappeared in the near future. 

Putting everything in with the LX platform was a bad idea.  The Dodge brand in particular got away from selling any cars other than the Charger and Challenger.  Now that both are gone the answer seems to be the Hornet (which nobody wants).  A lot of the Charger buying demographic doesn't seem to be interested in the new EV/ Straight Six version.

[Henry]

Stellantis just sucks in general.  They are presently driving the Dodge and Chrysler brands into the ground.  It wouldn't surprise me both disappeared in the near future. 

Putting everything in with the LX platform was a bad idea.  The Dodge brand in particular got away from selling any cars other than the Charger and Challenger.  Now that both are gone the answer seems to be the Hornet (which nobody wants).  A lot of the Charger buying demographic doesn't seem to be interested in the new EV/ Straight Six version.

I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, because historically, Chrysler's products were great alternatives to what Ford and GM had to offer. But now that Stellantis is in control, the once-proud Hemi-making company is definitely on life support, with its Detroit competitors taking a much bigger piece of the pie. (What are the Jeep and Ram brands up to anyway?) And it's not like the other two are doing any better now either: It looks like the Corvette and several Cadillac sedans will be the only non-crossovers in GM's portfolio, and Chevy is in serious trouble after losing the Camaro for the second time. Over in Dearborn, Lincoln has been on the chopping block for some time now; how long until Ford actually goes through with this threat is still anyone's guess.

[Max Rockatansky]

Stellantis just sucks in general.  They are presently driving the Dodge and Chrysler brands into the ground.  It wouldn't surprise me both disappeared in the near future. 

Putting everything in with the LX platform was a bad idea.  The Dodge brand in particular got away from selling any cars other than the Charger and Challenger.  Now that both are gone the answer seems to be the Hornet (which nobody wants).  A lot of the Charger buying demographic doesn't seem to be interested in the new EV/ Straight Six version.

I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, because historically, Chrysler's products were great alternatives to what Ford and GM had to offer. But now that Stellantis is in control, the once-proud Hemi-making company is definitely on life support, with its Detroit competitors taking a much bigger piece of the pie. (What are the Jeep and Ram brands up to anyway?) And it's not like the other two are doing any better now either: It looks like the Corvette and several Cadillac sedans will be the only non-crossovers in GM's portfolio, and Chevy is in serious trouble after losing the Camaro for the second time. Over in Dearborn, Lincoln has been on the chopping block for some time now; how long until Ford actually goes through with this threat is still anyone's guess.

It was interesting shopping for a sedan this last couple months.  Toyota had plenty of options but you had to be pretty much be willing to jump on making a buy.  There was a surprising amount of competition for something like a low option Corolla sedan.  It tends to make me think that the domestic automakers are making a huge mistake alienating entry level customers in favor of CUVs.

[mgk920]

This whole straight battery-electric thing has certainly not been thought through, not now and not over a century ago.

Mike

[Life in Paradise]

Stellantis just sucks in general.  They are presently driving the Dodge and Chrysler brands into the ground.  It wouldn't surprise me both disappeared in the near future. 

Putting everything in with the LX platform was a bad idea.  The Dodge brand in particular got away from selling any cars other than the Charger and Challenger.  Now that both are gone the answer seems to be the Hornet (which nobody wants).  A lot of the Charger buying demographic doesn't seem to be interested in the new EV/ Straight Six version.

I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, because historically, Chrysler's products were great alternatives to what Ford and GM had to offer. But now that Stellantis is in control, the once-proud Hemi-making company is definitely on life support, with its Detroit competitors taking a much bigger piece of the pie. (What are the Jeep and Ram brands up to anyway?) And it's not like the other two are doing any better now either: It looks like the Corvette and several Cadillac sedans will be the only non-crossovers in GM's portfolio, and Chevy is in serious trouble after losing the Camaro for the second time. Over in Dearborn, Lincoln has been on the chopping block for some time now; how long until Ford actually goes through with this threat is still anyone's guess.

It was interesting shopping for a sedan this last couple months.  Toyota had plenty of options but you had to be pretty much be willing to jump on making a buy.  There was a surprising amount of competition for something like a low option Corolla sedan.  It tends to make me think that the domestic automakers are making a huge mistake alienating entry level customers in favor of CUVs.

Agreed.  Anytime that you leave a segment of the market, it is hard to get back in.  I also agree with Mike that the pursuit of EVs was not thought out well.  A lot of those that would have more likely purchased smaller vehicles (like cars) that would maximize hybrid technology as well as get good miles per charge with an EV.  In Europe's case, Chinese EV's are being dumped there (as it seems) and that's hurting their domestic auto industry.

[Stephane Dumas]

Stellantis just sucks in general.  They are presently driving the Dodge and Chrysler brands into the ground.  It wouldn't surprise me both disappeared in the near future. 

Putting everything in with the LX platform was a bad idea.  The Dodge brand in particular got away from selling any cars other than the Charger and Challenger.  Now that both are gone the answer seems to be the Hornet (which nobody wants).  A lot of the Charger buying demographic doesn't seem to be interested in the new EV/ Straight Six version.

In some car forums, some posters suggest to put Ram back under Dodge's umbrella.

And there was rumors of merger with Renault who was quickly denied.
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/10/stellantis-and-renault-ceos-deny-talks-of-rumored-merger/

[Road Hog]

Just speaking anecdotally, Ram pickups and Jeeps seem to be still popular where I live. I see them in my parking lot about as often as I see Chevy and GMC pickups. Ford, of course, is running away with the race.

[LilianaUwU]

EVs bad amirite

[Max Rockatansky]

I won't go as far to say they are worthless.  That said, it was easier to buy a hybrid car because of the lower price and convenience.  I'm not convinced that the fully EV market demographic will be fully competitive with ICE and hybrid options anywhere close to 2035.  I rather kick the EV drawbacks a couple of daily drivers down the line closer to my retirement age.

[Rothman]

I'm disappointed in the expected mileage of the new 4Runner hybrid.  Had it been somewhat higher I would have bought one.

[Max Rockatansky]

So far 51.6 MPG over about 4,300 miles on the Corolla hybrid I bought a couple months back.  Can't complain given the sticker estimate is 47 MPH highway for the FWD 2024 model.

[pderocco]

Full electrics seem like going back to the days of horses. If you rode one for hours, eventually it would have to sleep for hours.

[Scott5114]

Full electrics are great for commuting or going to the grocery store. The vast majority of people don't use their cars for anything else.

[kalvado]

Full electrics are great for commuting or going to the grocery store. The vast majority of people don't use their cars for anything else.

Even if I don't go too far 29 days a month, having something that can on a short notice do something bigger is an advantage. Same as being able to load 10 foot boards or 200 lb appliance are very nice to have right there

[Max Rockatansky]

My commute is 36 miles one-way.  There isn't a single charging station between my house and regular work destination.  There are six EV chargers at my work and they have a lot of competition for their use.

At least for me, my own commute doesn't render a full EV as something that makes sense.  The range would have to be normalized for an EV to be competitive with a hybrid car purchase.  Then again I couldn't fathom a 400-500 mile range EV being anywhere near the price point of the Corolla I bought. 

[Rothman]

Looked up how many people rent in the U.S. and, despite increasing in recent years, still only represents about a sixth of our population and not sure out of that many would even want a car.  Still makes me wonder about EV solutions for those that do not own their own property.

[Max Rockatansky]

I would imagine renters probably would have the most difficulty with EV charging.  Installation of EV charging infrastructure I would assume is fairly cost prohibitive for landlords of all variety.

[kalvado]

I would imagine renters probably would have the most difficulty with EV charging.  Installation of EV charging infrastructure I would assume is fairly cost prohibitive for landlords of all variety.

I've seen at least one apartment complex with chargers on the lot. I would expect availability to correlate with demand for the service.

[Max Rockatansky]

I would imagine renters probably would have the most difficulty with EV charging.  Installation of EV charging infrastructure I would assume is fairly cost prohibitive for landlords of all variety.

I've seen at least one apartment complex with chargers on the lot. I would expect availability to correlate with demand for the service.

But is it enough for the complex? The competition for those six chargers I mentioned above is fierce.  There is enough demand probably for four times that amount.

A lot of my opinion on the current state of public charging infrastructure is largely swayed by a recent experience I had in Dublin, CA.  I was in a friend's car which is a Model Y Tesla.  Her car needed a charge and thusly she looked up where nearby stations were on an app.  Every charger had an anticipated minimum 15 wait to even plug in).  We ultimately went to the Tesla dealer and waited for 25 minutes for before even starting a charge (about another 30 to get to an 81% charge). 

Mind you, Dublin was in the home market for Tesla and more or less the EV epicenter.  If things are that bad in terms of competition for public charging then it can't possibly be ready beyond niche use elsewhere.  At least it didn't give me the impression that long distance travel in an EV wasn't going to include some major headaches. 

[JayhawkCO]

I would imagine renters probably would have the most difficulty with EV charging.  Installation of EV charging infrastructure I would assume is fairly cost prohibitive for landlords of all variety.

I've seen at least one apartment complex with chargers on the lot. I would expect availability to correlate with demand for the service.

But is it enough for the complex? The competition for those six chargers I mentioned above is fierce.  There is enough demand probably for four times that amount.

I'm not a big "let the market decide" guy, but I would assume if EVs proliferate more than they already have, people are going to look for apartments where you can have your own dedicated charger. It'll be no different than ruling out an apartment if it doesn't have a washer/dryer, dishwasher, etc. Apartments will have to keep up if they want to get tenants and the price they're looking for for rent.

[Max Rockatansky]

I would imagine renters probably would have the most difficulty with EV charging.  Installation of EV charging infrastructure I would assume is fairly cost prohibitive for landlords of all variety.

I've seen at least one apartment complex with chargers on the lot. I would expect availability to correlate with demand for the service.

But is it enough for the complex? The competition for those six chargers I mentioned above is fierce.  There is enough demand probably for four times that amount.

I'm not a big "let the market decide" guy, but I would assume if EVs proliferate more than they already have, people are going to look for apartments where you can have your own dedicated charger. It'll be no different than ruling out an apartment if it doesn't have a washer/dryer, dishwasher, etc. Apartments will have to keep up if they want to get tenants and the price they're looking for for rent.

Truth be told, I would be curious to hear from someone who rents what the infrastructure is like.  I haven't rented in a long time nor really know anyone who does and owns an EV.

[kalvado]

I would imagine renters probably would have the most difficulty with EV charging.  Installation of EV charging infrastructure I would assume is fairly cost prohibitive for landlords of all variety.

I've seen at least one apartment complex with chargers on the lot. I would expect availability to correlate with demand for the service.

But is it enough for the complex? The competition for those six chargers I mentioned above is fierce.  There is enough demand probably for four times that amount.

A lot of my opinion on the current state of public charging infrastructure is largely swayed by a recent experience I had in Dublin, CA.  I was in a friend's car which is a Model Y Tesla.  Her car needed a charge and thusly she looked up where nearby stations were on an app.  Every charger had an anticipated minimum 15 wait to even plug in).  We ultimately went to the Tesla dealer and waited for 25 minutes for before even starting a charge (about another 30 to get to an 81% charge). 

Mind you, Dublin was in the home market for Tesla and more or less the EV epicenter.  If things are that bad in terms of competition for public charging then it can't possibly be ready beyond niche use elsewhere.  At least it didn't give me the impression that long distance travel in an EV wasn't going to include some major headaches. 

That's... very different from what I see.
There was a lonely tesla on apartment lot, but nothing was plugged in. By the look of those charges, I would add "for quite a while".

[JayhawkCO]

I would imagine renters probably would have the most difficulty with EV charging.  Installation of EV charging infrastructure I would assume is fairly cost prohibitive for landlords of all variety.

I've seen at least one apartment complex with chargers on the lot. I would expect availability to correlate with demand for the service.

But is it enough for the complex? The competition for those six chargers I mentioned above is fierce.  There is enough demand probably for four times that amount.

A lot of my opinion on the current state of public charging infrastructure is largely swayed by a recent experience I had in Dublin, CA.  I was in a friend's car which is a Model Y Tesla.  Her car needed a charge and thusly she looked up where nearby stations were on an app.  Every charger had an anticipated minimum 15 wait to even plug in).  We ultimately went to the Tesla dealer and waited for 25 minutes for before even starting a charge (about another 30 to get to an 81% charge). 

Mind you, Dublin was in the home market for Tesla and more or less the EV epicenter.  If things are that bad in terms of competition for public charging then it can't possibly be ready beyond niche use elsewhere.  At least it didn't give me the impression that long distance travel in an EV wasn't going to include some major headaches. 

That's... very different from what I see.
There was a lonely tesla on apartment lot, but nothing was plugged in. By the look of those charges, I would add "for quite a while".

It's also very different from what I see. I rented a Tesla when I flew back to KC and when I needed to charge, I just needed to find any Price Chopper (grocery store), and there were 6-10 fast chargers, all wide open.

[jeffandnicole]

I would imagine renters probably would have the most difficulty with EV charging.  Installation of EV charging infrastructure I would assume is fairly cost prohibitive for landlords of all variety.

I've seen at least one apartment complex with chargers on the lot. I would expect availability to correlate with demand for the service.

But is it enough for the complex? The competition for those six chargers I mentioned above is fierce.  There is enough demand probably for four times that amount.

A lot of my opinion on the current state of public charging infrastructure is largely swayed by a recent experience I had in Dublin, CA.  I was in a friend's car which is a Model Y Tesla.  Her car needed a charge and thusly she looked up where nearby stations were on an app.  Every charger had an anticipated minimum 15 wait to even plug in).  We ultimately went to the Tesla dealer and waited for 25 minutes for before even starting a charge (about another 30 to get to an 81% charge). 

Mind you, Dublin was in the home market for Tesla and more or less the EV epicenter.  If things are that bad in terms of competition for public charging then it can't possibly be ready beyond niche use elsewhere.  At least it didn't give me the impression that long distance travel in an EV wasn't going to include some major headaches. 

They are probably more abnormal than normal experiences.  The charging areas I see around me are used, but I don't know if I've ever seen them filled.  But it will depend on the area, as you mentioned.  I would think Telsa would want to keep up on demand, but ultimately they're looking to work with companies and businesses that'll allow Telsa and other EV companies to set up chargers.  With the millions of Teslas and other EVs on the road, it's not much of a niche market anymore.

Ironically, gas stations would be a good fit - the larger ones tend to have spaces away from the building that aren't used, and they would generate income, just like fueling tanks.  There are Telsa chargers at some Wawas, for example.

For apartment complexes, as mentioned, they need to keep up with what tenants want.  They don't need to install EV chargers, but then that's potential renters that will need to look elsewhere.  Much like those that installed CAT lines over the years, cable lines, and whatever other technologies come up - even elevators!