Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?

[agentsteel53]

not bad.[/img]

not good.  looks like they stretch or compress Series C as needed, as opposed to using B, D, etc.

(unless it's B, and they stretch that... I can't quite tell; I just know stretching when I see it.)

[Android]

I'm not sure what it is - it's not quite "by the book" Series C stretched or comrpessed - well not the "e" and "s" at least - many of the others are pretty darn close though.  That looks like the typeface I've seen in some parts of Denver and also what Iowa used to use before they went Clearview.   The stetching doesn't bother me that much - and I'd much rather have this than Clearview.  But I do wonder what kind of protocols the sign makers use.   

On another note, what do you think of the way that Cheyenne, WY is doing their mixed case signs?  These have been going up for a few years now.  I always thought their oversize capital letters to be a little, well, odd.  Not really bad, just odd.

[codyg1985]

Oversized capital letters look hideous IMO.

[agentsteel53]

not nearly as classy as old-school 2:3 Cal Div Hwys black signs.

[Android]

Okay, digging in my road signs folder, I found one more set of examples I thought I'd put up - another case of Oversized Capital letters, but these are different in their spacing.  It was that oddity that got me into taking these - from a road trip last summer, Springfield Illinois.

[WillWeaverRVA]

Several counties in Virginia have started to adopt mixed-case signage, although there are a few that have used it for years (Henrico, Prince William, Chesterfield, etc).

Hanover County is using some variation of FHWA Series C (a differently stretched version than what Henrico County has used), but with the street abbreviation spelled out - for example, what was "ATLEE STATION RD" is now spelled out as "Atlee Station Road". I don't know or understand why this is.

Richmond has been experimenting with mixed-case Clearview signage on some streets in downtown, but many of those signs are superseded by larger green signs mounted to traffic signal arms.

[hm insulators]

Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?

[Scott5114]

Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?

Nope. San Dimas would just have to use lowercase, although really the MUTCD says that they shouldn't have been using that in the first place, so if they have to get rid of it, it's really their own fault.

[myosh_tino]

Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?

Nope. San Dimas would just have to use lowercase, although really the MUTCD says that they shouldn't have been using that in the first place, so if they have to get rid of it, it's really their own fault.

Does the MUTCD really restrict the type of fonts that can be used on street blades?  That's news to me since my home town switched from all-caps Series D to mixed case Bookman on their blades several years ago.

[J N Winkler]

Does the MUTCD really restrict the type of fonts that can be used on street blades?  That's news to me since my home town switched from all-caps Series D to mixed case Bookman on their blades several years ago.

The MUTCD requires that only the FHWA alphabet series be used on traffic signs (the "W" Clearview typefaces being allowed for positive-contrast applications by interim approval).  I forget chapter and verse, but that stipulation has been around in one form or another for years if not decades.

Wayfinding signage is emerging as a thorny issue in MUTCD rulemaking because it has been unclear for so long that these are actually traffic signs within the meaning of the MUTCD.  Many cities (including my hometown, Wichita) have opted to put up wayfinding signs which don't use the FHWA alphabet series or approved colors, on the basis that they are not traffic signs per se and so do not have to comply with the MUTCD.  I believe MUTCD 2009 now spells out specifications for wayfinding signs but I don't at the moment remember whether they were made compulsory.  I suspect that the motivation for FHWA is to get a tentative standard out there so that they can later make it compulsory for replacements when existing wayfinding signs wear out.

It also used to be unclear whether guide signs on roads within airports (not airside) had to comply with the MUTCD.  I think MUTCD 2009 now stipulates that they do have to comply, so that probably means an end to blue-background guide signs with Arial.  Airports which took a sensible approach and used MUTCD typefaces and sign design rules, like Houston Intercontinental and Minneapolis-St. Paul, won't be stuck with big bills for sign replacement.  Others, like Chicago O'Hare and Wichita Mid-Continent, are in a more difficult position.

[Alps]

It also used to be unclear whether guide signs on roads within airports (not airside) had to comply with the MUTCD.  I think MUTCD 2009 now stipulates that they do have to comply, so that probably means an end to blue-background guide signs with Arial.  Airports which took a sensible approach and used MUTCD typefaces and sign design rules, like Houston Intercontinental and Minneapolis-St. Paul, won't be stuck with big bills for sign replacement.  Others, like Chicago O'Hare and Wichita Mid-Continent, are in a more difficult position.

Yes and no.  Only if an airport gets FHWA funding do they have to worry about compliance.  A client I know of is taking the approach of coming as close to the MUTCD as practical, but still keeping their own sign standards.  When it comes to street signs, they have at least one location with non-standard background colors (plenty of contrast, just not an MUTCD color), and the sign blade has an adornment that makes it non-rectangular.  Other signs have deviations of similar magnitude.  They're 0% Federally funded so they don't feel pressure to comply any more than is reasonably easy.

[burgess87]

I had the opportunity to speak with the Town of Yates, NY supervisor last night.  Asked him if he'd heard anything from NYSDOT about this change.  He replied in the affirmative, and that NYSDOT was allowing the blade signs to be replaced as needed.  He was pretty sure that all the blade signs in the town would be knocked down at some point before the 2018 deadline.

I remarked to him that if they could make the text bigger at all when they are replaced, it'd be a great deal better for our drivers.

[myosh_tino]

So I guess the 2009 MUTCD (or some future version) would make this street blade non-compliant for not using an FHWA font or Clearview (yuk!)...



The funny thing is I think this type of street blade was installed to comply with the 6" letter height and reflective requirements in the previous MUTCD.  The old street blades used 4" uppercase Series C.  I guess we're going to eventually have to go back to boring old Series C or D... *groan*

[roadfro]

It also used to be unclear whether guide signs on roads within airports (not airside) had to comply with the MUTCD.  I think MUTCD 2009 now stipulates that they do have to comply, so that probably means an end to blue-background guide signs with Arial.  Airports which took a sensible approach and used MUTCD typefaces and sign design rules, like Houston Intercontinental and Minneapolis-St. Paul, won't be stuck with big bills for sign replacement.  Others, like Chicago O'Hare and Wichita Mid-Continent, are in a more difficult position.

Yes and no.  Only if an airport gets FHWA funding do they have to worry about compliance.  A client I know of is taking the approach of coming as close to the MUTCD as practical, but still keeping their own sign standards.  When it comes to street signs, they have at least one location with non-standard background colors (plenty of contrast, just not an MUTCD color), and the sign blade has an adornment that makes it non-rectangular.  Other signs have deviations of similar magnitude.  They're 0% Federally funded so they don't feel pressure to comply any more than is reasonably easy.

The 2009 MUTCD has specific language that states it applies to all roads open to public travel--funding is not a factor under consideration. Airport circulating roadways would certainly fall under this stipulation.

[J N Winkler]

The 2009 MUTCD has specific language that states it applies to all roads open to public travel--funding is not a factor under consideration. Airport circulating roadways would certainly fall under this stipulation.

My interpretation of Steve's comment is that while airports might be under an obligation to comply because their circulating roadways are open to public travel, in practice they will ignore MUTCD requirements unless there is a funding stream for FHWA to yank.  The reason for this is that FHWA does not (AFAIK) have police powers to enforce MUTCD requirements.  (I would imagine that airports do receive some additional federal funding streams in respect of cost-sharing for airfield infrastructure and tower operations, but I don't know if those can be yanked for failing to comply with MUTCD requirements in the same way universities can lose federal funding if they refuse to allow military recruiters on campus.)

[Michael in Philly]

The 2009 MUTCD has specific language that states it applies to all roads open to public travel--funding is not a factor under consideration. Airport circulating roadways would certainly fall under this stipulation.

My interpretation of Steve's comment is that while airports might be under an obligation to comply because their circulating roadways are open to public travel, in practice they will ignore MUTCD requirements unless there is a funding stream for FHWA to yank.  The reason for this is that FHWA does not (AFAIK) have police powers to enforce MUTCD requirements.  (I would imagine that airports do receive some additional federal funding streams in respect of cost-sharing for airfield infrastructure and tower operations, but I don't know if those can be yanked for failing to comply with MUTCD requirements in the same way universities can lose federal funding if they refuse to allow military recruiters on campus.)

Congress can use the "spending power" - its authority to determine how federal funds are spent - to do all sorts of things that they can't (because this is theoretically a federal system) do directly.  That was the Supreme Court's rationale for upholding the national drinking age.

[J N Winkler]

Congress does have that power, but to exercise it, it first has to pass a law.  The question that is most immediately relevant relates to what is permissible under existing legislation.  I am not aware that airports jeopardize federal funding besides that administered by FHWA if they fail to comply with the MUTCD on their surface roadways.

[MDOTFanFB]

Wayne County in Michigan has just started to get into the mixed-case Clearview street sign tread. I already saw three last week.



Allen & Pennsylvania Roads, Southgate




Eureka & Wayne Roads, Romulus (due to relocated intersection)

The last one was at Allen & Eureka Roads in Southgate.

[Duke87]

Why are they omitting the suffix?

[J N Winkler]

That is fairly common inside subdivisions--Wichita does it, for example.

[njroadhorse]

That is fairly common inside subdivisions--Wichita does it, for example.

Seems to be a common Metro Detroit thing in general.  I've seen the blades downtown do that too.

[hm insulators]

Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?

Nope. San Dimas would just have to use lowercase, although really the MUTCD says that they shouldn't have been using that in the first place, so if they have to get rid of it, it's really their own fault.

San Dimas actually has been using the "old west"-style font at least since the 1970s.

[froggie]

Earlier today, I noticed one of the new style of streetblade signs in Dorset, VT.  This is an area that normally does just uppercase streetsigns. No pic, but I can't say I'm impressed with the new style.  Prefer the 1st letter being closer in font size to the rest.

[Scott5114]

Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?

Nope. San Dimas would just have to use lowercase, although really the MUTCD says that they shouldn't have been using that in the first place, so if they have to get rid of it, it's really their own fault.

San Dimas actually has been using the "old west"-style font at least since the 1970s.

And the MUTCD has specified the current fonts since 1948...

[Android]

Earlier today, I noticed one of the new style of streetblade signs in Dorset, VT.  This is an area that normally does just uppercase streetsigns. No pic, but I can't say I'm impressed with the new style.  Prefer the 1st letter being closer in font size to the rest.

Were they like any of the exampled I posted above - like those ones from Cheyenne with very oversized capitals?