AutoWeek list of the 15 most challenging routes

[sglaughlin]

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20101207/CARNEWS/101209926#ixzz17TbXV3JK  Also see the link to 15 Most Dangerous Places To Drive on Earth

[NE2]

What a crappy list.

[corco]

Heh, good to see some I-80 in Wyoming love. I maintain that I-80 from Laramie to Cheyenne is the most challenging stretch of interstate in the country in bad conditions (having admittedly not driven every mile of interstate in the country in bad conditions)- I can't really imagine how a road could get any worse- there's often snow, snow drifts, high winds, and fog simultaneously.

I lost my BACK windshield while driving down I-80 back from Cheyenne in a snowstorm last June (!). It was snowing, but the winds were gusting to 70 and a large rock somehow got airborne and carried to my back windshield, shattering it on impact

[agentsteel53]

I do agree with #1.

the first time I drove US-550 was at 2am on a December night in a whiteout blizzard.

the second time, it was clogged to the gills with RVs on an average Labor Day weekend.

that second time, indeed, was a harrowing drive.

[J N Winkler]

I agree it is not a very good list.  US 40 Rabbit Ears pass?  I have actually driven that and, aside from the total lack of power at high altitude, it is not difficult.

[roadfro]

I-15 through Nevada...really?!?

[corco]

I agree it is not a very good list.  US 40 Rabbit Ears pass?  I have actually driven that and, aside from the total lack of power at high altitude, it is not difficult.

Like I-80 in Wyoming, that one only really applies seasonally. Try driving it in the winter- it gets pretty rough- lots of tourists who don't know what they're doing and generally bad road surface conditions coupled with moderate wind can make it an adventure. Top 15 bad drives in America rough though? I'm not so sure about that- if we're allowing for bad seasonal conditions, I'd say Emigrant Hill on I-84 in Oregon is scarier during a snowstorm, among others

[J N Winkler]

I greatly object to the principle of Emigrant Hill.  In this country we put 35 MPH mountain crossings in the middle of 70 MPH Interstate instead of providing an appropriate combination of tunnels and high-level viaducts to maintain the 70 MPH design speed through the mountains.  It is a bit like having a freight terminal straddling the Interstate itself.

[The Premier]

I-15 through Nevada...really?!?

They are not kidding. In fact, I-15 in both Nevada and California were featured in Dangerous Drives on the Speed channel IIRC.

[myosh_tino]

I-15 through Nevada...really?!?

They are not kidding. In fact, I-15 in both Nevada and California were featured in Dangerous Drives on the Speed channel IIRC.

IIRC, they were covering I-15 between the L.A. Basin and Las Vegas and it was a holiday weekend (4th of July).  That road, high speeds, unpredictable weather and drunk holiday revelers is a very bad mix.

Anyways, #1 on that list, US 550, the Million Dollar Highway, was also featured on Dangerous Drives

[agentsteel53]

I've done 117 mph on I-15 and been passed on both sides.

[myosh_tino]

I've done 117 mph on I-15 and been passed on both sides.

Seriously?  Wow! 

I typically go between 70 and 80 on I-15 but I stay in the right lane except to pass slower traffic like trucks and campers.  Being passed by someone doing 90+ is pretty common.

[agentsteel53]

I tend to go about 79mph on I-15, but I have done the San Diego to Vegas run in 3 hours and 40 minutes...

[Bickendan]

I agree it is not a very good list.  US 40 Rabbit Ears pass?  I have actually driven that and, aside from the total lack of power at high altitude, it is not difficult.

Like I-80 in Wyoming, that one only really applies seasonally. Try driving it in the winter- it gets pretty rough- lots of tourists who don't know what they're doing and generally bad road surface conditions coupled with moderate wind can make it an adventure. Top 15 bad drives in America rough though? I'm not so sure about that- if we're allowing for bad seasonal conditions, I'd say Emigrant Hill on I-84 in Oregon is scarier during a snowstorm, among others

Going up or down?

I greatly object to the principle of Emigrant Hill.  In this country we put 35 MPH mountain crossings in the middle of 70 MPH Interstate instead of providing an appropriate combination of tunnels and high-level viaducts to maintain the 70 MPH design speed through the mountains.  It is a bit like having a freight terminal straddling the Interstate itself.

To be fair for Emigrant Hill, the limit drops from 65 to 50 going up, with advisory speeds at each switchback.

[agentsteel53]

To be fair for Emigrant Hill, the limit drops from 65 to 50 going up, with advisory speeds at each switchback.

that's ridiculous.  the speed limit should stay 65.  (or, given that it's quite rural, it should be 90, or at the very least 75, but that is neither here nor there.)  if you have a Z3 and can take the curves doing 80, then you should not be prevented from doing so.

[brownpelican]

I am assuming they are talking about I-10 at the 610 West Loop on Houston's West side...

[Tarkus]

I've not driven Cabbage Hill, but at least it's got a third lane on ascent, so it's one step ahead of I-82 between Ellensburg and Yakima, WA.  I drove that stretch quite a bit when I was going to CWU for my master's degree . . . 3 summits with 6% grades on a 35-mile stretch.  It's a 70 zone, though to be fair, it's not quite as sharply-curved or as high in elevation as Cabbage Hill.  Arguably, between the lack of an additional climbing lane, the crazy Yakima drivers and all the trucks going 20, it's right up there with the worst of them.  WSDOT's been talking about adding a third lane up Manastash Ridge out of Ellensburg for several years now, but there's not been any funding allocated to it for just as long.

In terms of "challenging roads", I'm surprised OR-242 (the old McKenzie Pass Highway) doesn't get more credit.  I drove that one back in October . . . that is one screwed up little road.  It's almost entirely 15mph hairpins, with few guardrails and barely enough room for 2 lanes.  And when it's not closed down for snow, as is the case most of the year, it gets a fair bit of traffic from its "scenic route" destination.

-Alex (Tarkus)

[agentsteel53]

Arguably, between the lack of an additional climbing lane, the crazy Yakima drivers and all the trucks going 20, it's right up there with the worst of them.

speaking of absurdly slow trucks and the lack of a climbing lane - the Grapevine, aka I-5 just north of Los Angeles.  Even with the full four lanes in each direction, it is simply miserable.  There are signs saying "slow trucks" but the message is insufficiently emphasized: unless you have a full and clear idea of what you are doing, you should never get into the #4 lane: around the next curve will be a truck that you will collide with while going 60-80mph relatively faster.  Then in the #3 lane there are trucks doing 18 passing the trucks doing 12.  Another deathtrap.  And the #2 lane is filled with people driving shitbox 1986 Yugo subcompacts, doing 36 passing the lanes doing 18 and 12.  

Only in the #1 lane do you have a reasonable hope of speed, and even then maintaining even the prescribed speed limit of 65 consistently is an extreme challenge.  Only once have I done the entire climb without dropping below 65mph, and that was at 2 in the morning.  Every damn last other time, there was always at least one barely-mobile strategically-distributed accumulation of brick shithouses to clog things up.  

And, like I said, that is with four lanes available.  In 2005, a landslide washed out a section of I-5 and the temporary repair resulted in two maleficent new misfeatures.

Southbound, there is the single most dangerous on-ramp on the interstate highway system in the US: Templin Highway, with a full stop sign as opposed to a yield, and a merge point with maybe 50 feet of visibility - and vehicles in the #4 lane doing anywhere from 20 to 110 down the hill, and you never know what you're going to get.  If you have a car with a 0-60 time of over maybe 3.5 seconds, you are going to get creamed and literally never see it coming.

the other danger is that northbound in the same area, there is a section of only three lanes.  Yep, what I said about the #2 lane above suddenly applies to all lanes because Cal Division of Highways saw fit to never bother to repair the #1 lane.  Oh they've got plenty of money to tear down perfectly functional porcelain signs on the 110 and the roads it intersects with, and replace them with retroreflective monstrosities, just because some assclown of a senator decided to rename the Pasadena Freeway to a Parkway... but actual road maintenance?  Hah!  The last thing on their minds.  

[Tarkus]

^Now that really takes the cake, I'd say.  4 lanes in each direction and it's still a clusterbleep . . .

That sort of stuff is exactly why we should be pulling more people over for impeding rather than speeding.  I think it would really be a good common sense measure to put minimum speeds on left lanes of freeways.  If the slowpokes with crapwagons and harebrained truckers want to/need to drive 60mph under the speed limit, they need to learn to stay to the right and out of the way, so folks who can drive a reasonable speed can get through.

-Alex (Tarkus)

[agentsteel53]

I think it would really be a good common sense measure to put minimum speeds on left lanes of freeways.  

Some places do.  I think I-40 in New Mexico has a minimum speed of 55 in the left lane.

but, still, that is 55mph.  When highways are built for 90 and cars for 140, 55 is still pathetic.  Indeed, people need to be pulled over for setting up unfavorable speed differentials.  If you don't want to go ... stay home.

I'm all for prosecuting drivers who have demonstrated their general incompetence.  If you cause a wreck, your speed should be seriously considered.  But, if you can do hundreds of thousands of miles without screwing up, then the fact that you're getting to Point B with an alacrity should be commended, not prosecuted.  We need significantly harsher penalties for causing a wreck (loss of license, etc) and significantly less for being at the wrong speed at the wrong time.

[J N Winkler]

Oh they've got plenty of money to tear down perfectly functional porcelain signs on the 110 and the roads it intersects with, and replace them with retroreflective monstrosities, just because some assclown of a senator decided to rename the Pasadena Freeway to a Parkway... but actual road maintenance?  Hah!  The last thing on their minds.

You exaggerate.  The Arroyo Seco Parkway signing contract only cost about $1 million and was in the works for 10 years.  To compare, do you know how much it cost just to do slope stabilization on the Grapevine portion of I-5?  $30 million.  Yes, $30 million.

In terms of "challenging roads", I'm surprised OR-242 (the old McKenzie Pass Highway) doesn't get more credit.  I drove that one back in October . . . that is one screwed up little road.  It's almost entirely 15mph hairpins, with few guardrails and barely enough room for 2 lanes.

I believe I have driven it as well.  From memory, it also passes through lava fields and the narrow lanes are accompanied by steep, knife-sharp side slopes.  (Or am I remembering the Santiam Pass highway?)

In regard to Emigrant Hill, there is a black-on-yellow sign at the top (near the brake check area) which spells out advisory speeds for trucks by weight.  This speed table sign is standard provision at mountain pass crossings on Interstates in Oregon (I-5 Siskiyou Pass has one too), but is not in the national MUTCD (I don't know if it also appears in the Oregon sign policy).  From memory, the Emigrant Hill speed table goes under 20 MPH for the heaviest weights--maybe even under 15 MPH.

Here is the one for Siskiyou Pass:

[Bickendan]

What's fun about those signs is that on the downhill side of the freeway, both I-5 going down the Siskiyous and I-84 down Emigrant Hill, it's only two lanes, so all the semis will be crowding the right lane with the emergency blinkers flashing, and regular traffic coasting (or riding the brakes) down the hill... oh wait, there's a semi passing a slower semi in the left lane. This naturally affects I-5 far more than I-84, though.

[agentsteel53]

You exaggerate.  The Arroyo Seco Parkway signing contract only cost about $1 million and was in the works for 10 years.  To compare, do you know how much it cost just to do slope stabilization on the Grapevine portion of I-5?  $30 million.  Yes, $30 million.

then find 30 porky projects of little use other than to make us feel pretty, and divert the funds.  This is California; I am sure there are thirty, or even three hundred, projects like this on the books.

[agentsteel53]

does that table extrapolate?  if not, explain why I have, on more than one occasion, gotten passed by an untrailered tractor doing 120+ down the hill.  Not Siskiyou specifically, but I-40 heading out of Flagstaff, I-15 from CA into Nevada, etc.

[J N Winkler]

then find 30 porky projects of little use other than to make us feel pretty, and divert the funds.  This is California; I am sure there are thirty, or even three hundred, projects like this on the books.

These are all the projects Caltrans currently has advertised:

Attachment B--advertised before this Monday

Attachment A--advertised this Monday

Care to identify any projects which Caltrans should not be doing?