School Zones...

[BigMattFromTexas]

Texas: Usually it's 35-20 mph in school zones. Also it's illegal to use cell phones in a school zone, you can get up to a $200 fine for a first time offence. This is enforced in Angelo, driving and talking  doesn't annoy me so much, but the texting and driving is just stupid..

In fact it's illegal in the city of San Antonio, as of October 2010.
BigMatt.

[NE2]

Hence why I said "should have".  IMO the law needs to be changed.  While it makes sense for residential streets, it makes no sense for arterial roads which is where most of the drivers are.  Residential streets have so little traffic that what the law says concerning them is moot.

Due to crappy planning, pedestrians often need to use these arterial roads.

Incedentially, that thread you mentioned supports my side:

She crossed legally by yielding to other traffic. If she'd gotten hit, she would have been at fault.

Not quite - if this was a 25 zone and she stepped out after checking that nobody doing that speed or slightly over was close enough to need to slow, and someone came by at 100 and hit her, that driver would clearly be at fault.

And while I do agree that cars should do what they can to avoid a collision, this does not give peds a licence to walk into traffic whenever they please just because they're a ped.  And given what I've posted, if a car hits a ped when they were in a crosswalk with the walk signal or there was a sign saying to yield to them, the driver should get the book thrown at them.

Signs saying to yield to peds are "nag signs", reminding you what you have to do anyway at every intersection.

[vdeane]

I think we're arguing two different things.  You're trying to argue what the present situation is.  I'm arguing that we need to change the present situation.

[NE2]

We do need to change the present situation. It's too lenient on motorists.

[corco]

Man... um...school zones have little to do with kids not knowing how to look both ways, they have to do with congestion. You don't make the speed limit on a roadway 45 through downtown Seattle, you make it 25 because there is a lot going on, even if everybody is behaving correctly.

The outside of a school during school hours can be a very busy place, so it makes sense to slow down cars. If you're a believer in the 85th percentile speed idea for setting speed limits, I'd bet an exorbitant amount of money that the default 85th percentile speed drops considerably during school hours because of the increased congestion (in a correctly placed school zone). Hence, lower speed limit. By your logic, the speed limit should be 60 on arterials in downtown Manhattan, because, hey, people should know how to cross the street!

If you're in an area with no stop lights and no school zone, how are kids supposed to cross? Even if they are trying to do the right thing and look both ways, traffic on the roadway is going to be going too fast to stop in time to allow them to cross the street. Putting up school zone signs is a lot cheaper than installing elaborate traffic control devices, and serves exactly the same purpose.

Sure, it can be annoying when there's nothing going on and you have to drive the school speed limit, but that's an issue with the specific school zone, not the idea of school zones in general.

[vdeane]

In upstate NY, many school zones are not placed for this reason; they are simply there because there's a school.  And by look both ways, I don't mean wait until a car could stop... I mean to wait until the road is clear enough that you could cross with nobody slowing down.

We do need to change the present situation. It's too lenient on motorists.

I'm thinking the opposite.

[NE2]

I mean to wait until the road is clear enough that you could cross with nobody slowing down.

You don't understand how crosswalks work.

[froggie]

I'm thinking the opposite.

And why do you think this?

[corco]

they are simply there because there's a school

OK, maybe congestion isn't the explicit reason, but schools cause congestion.  There is no possible way to dispute that statement.  All schools have school zones because all schools add congestion.

And by look both ways, I don't mean wait until a car could stop... I mean to wait until the road is clear enough that you could cross with nobody slowing down.

Once again, beginning/end of the school day results in increased congestion (even in upstate New York). How are kids supposed to cross with nobody slowing down if there's no light and a constant stream of cars? They'll never get across or they'll get impatient (just like grown ups do) and dart out anyway.

I guess my other argument would be that school zones are usually a local decision. If Lebanon, Kansas wants to install a school zone and I have to drive slowly through it when I pass through there, that's none of my business. The burden absolutely should be on me to slow down through their school zone as I pass through their town. The people who live there presumably want it, so it's not my place to question it. Once I have kids and I send them to school, then I will see it as my perogative to question the presence of the school zone outside their school (if I do in fact find it questionable). The exception, obviously, is if it's obviously being used for revenue enhancement instead of safety. Then I see it as my right to question any school zone I want- but I don't think most school zones exist for that purpose. 

[Scott5114]

I guess my other argument would be that school zones are usually a local decision. If Lebanon, Kansas wants to install a school zone and I have to drive slowly through it when I pass through there, that's none of my business. The burden absolutely should be on me to slow down through their school zone as I pass through their town. The people who live there presumably want it, so it's not my place to question it. Once I have kids and I send them to school, then I will see it as my perogative to question the presence of the school zone outside their school (if I do in fact find it questionable). The exception, obviously, is if it's obviously being used for revenue enhancement instead of safety. Then I see it as my right to question any school zone I want- but I don't think most school zones exist for that purpose. 

Appealing to the locals' wishes and wants is a dangerous way of looking at the situation. Presumably the residents of New Rome, Ohio wanted that sort of government.

[agentsteel53]

no.  the government of New Rome, Ohio wanted that sort of government.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

There never was a school inside the "city limits" of New Rome, Ohio.
Comparing crooked politicians to public safety is apples and oranges.

[vdeane]

You don't understand how crosswalks work.

I wasn't talking about a crosswalk.  I was talking about general crossing where no crosswalk exists.

For example, take a look at this area: http://goo.gl/maps/xuRJ

There is a crosswalk to the north, but the nearest one to the south is half a mile away.  People whose houses are to the south typically jaywalk across the street by doing just as I say: waiting until the road is clear and then running across (typically the waiting is accomplished by walking along the other side until an opportunity to cross develops).  The road is two lanes, but with the traffic for four (it was supposed to be widened 20 years ago, but local opposition killed the plan), and long lines of cars that can easily create a 5-10 minute wait to make a left turn.  The 25mph school limit doesn't do anything to make the congestion more manageable.

Here's another one:  http://goo.gl/maps/6zh6

15mph school zone.  You either slam on the breaks or manage to slow down in time for the school zone to be over.  Pretty much the only way you can travel at the limit is if you're traveling north and get the light at French Rd red.  No idea why either road has them... the kids never get closer to the road than the bus loop.

[corco]

Appealing to the locals' wishes and wants is a dangerous way of looking at the situation. Presumably the residents of New Rome, Ohio wanted that sort of government.

Hence my exception for revenue enhancement. Other corrupt activities would also apply

[Duke87]

Re: crosswalks and yielding - it is easy for a pedestrian walking at 2 mph to stop and let a car go by. It is not so easy for a car going 30 mph to stop and let a pedestrian go by. If you ask me, forcing cars to yield to pedestrians makes about as much sense as forcing trains to yield to cars. The bigger thing that can't stop as easily ought to have the right of way (unless, of course, the bigger thing is stopping anyway - stop sign or red light). Besides, I, as a pedestrian, am not going to cross streets expecting drivers to yield to me, if for no other reason than that the consequences if someone does not aren't pleasant. Unless I explicitly have a signal in my favor, I am going to make sure nobody is coming before I start crossing and then quickly run across so as to get out of the way as fast as possible.

And that's another thing that gets me: when a driver stops to let you cross the street, they are being courteous to you. Be courteous to them and get a move on. I hate it when I'm stopped (say, at a stop sign) and pedestrians see fit to just leisurely stroll across the street in front of me. Because, you know, it's not like you're in my way or anything. I want to sit here all day, really. The proper thing to do in this situation as a pedestrian is to run, and minimize the delay you are causing.

[agentsteel53]

I actually greatly dislike when a driver slows down and stops to let me cross.  I'd really appreciate if they kept going at a constant speed, so that I can time them and play Frogger and cross the intersection already! 

[NE2]

For example, take a look at this area: http://goo.gl/maps/xuRJ

There is a crosswalk to the north, but the nearest one to the south is half a mile away.

There are unmarked crosswalks at every intersection.

[vdeane]

Doesn't make one iota of difference to when you can cross Winton Rd.  I don't believe anyone in upstate NY considers and unmarked crosswalk to be across a major arterial road, only across side streets and parallel to traffic flow.

[NE2]

Then you don't believe anyone in upstate NY knows how to drive properly.

[corco]

Doesn't make one iota of difference to when you can cross Winton Rd.  I don't believe anyone in upstate NY considers and unmarked crosswalk to be across a major arterial road, only across side streets and parallel to traffic flow.

All the more reason to....put in a school zone! If cars are going slower, it's safer for pedestrians to take their right of way to cross. With no school zone and people not stopping at crosswalks, jaywalking and other dangerous behavior is encouraged.

[mightyace]

Closer to the original topic.

Tennessee is very bad about putting schools on major arterials and putting up school zone even when the school is a couple hundred yards away.

One big example is Grassland Middle School near Franklin, TN:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=grassmere+middle+school&aq=&sll=36.009655,-86.88971&sspn=0.006448,0.010149&ie=UTF8&rq=1&ev=zi&split=1&filter=0&t=h&radius=0.34&hq=grassmere+middle+school&hnear=&ll=36.009594,-86.88808&spn=0.006448,0.010149&z=17&layer=c&cbll=36.009689,-86.888122&panoid=MwfjKUjkNaaHKocvra0b7w&cbp=12,39.22,,0,5

[hm insulators]

Regardless, if a pedestrian walks into traffic and gets hit, the accident should be 100% their fault regardless of the conduct of the driver (they could be driving 100 mph in a 25 mph zone and would still be at 0% fault) and pay all related costs out of pocket (no insurance bailout) and face a $1000 fine on top of that for reckless conduct.

HEAR! HEAR!  You're preaching to the choir, my friend! I'm sick and tired of pedestrians that step out into traffic and expect me to stop on a dime, or ignore red lights and the "DON'T WALK" picture symbol, or walk on the street even if there's a damned sidewalk (for some stupid reason, joggers are notorious for this). And the cops don't do anything; time and again, I've seen pedestrians do these things right in front of a police car, and the officer just looks the other way. (Although to be fair to the police, the officer could be on his way to something more urgent, but why can't he at least get on the squad car's PA system and say, "The light is red!" or something to that effect?)

And don't get me started on bicyclists! They make pedestrians look like angels!

[NE2]

What's really bad is the drivers who think they're better than everyone else yet violate as many laws. Hypocrites, the lot of them.

[mightyace]

IMHO.  I don't think the law should always make either the driver or the pedestrian at fault.

The current rules leave the driver on the hook for foolish and suicidal behavior on the part of the pedestrian.

However, if we do as deanj and hm insulators suggest, we'll likely have Death Race 2000 out there.

Examples:
If you're in a crosswalk and crossing with a "Walk" light or symbol and I hit you, then it's my fault.  But, if you're jaywalking whether it be crossing against the "Walk" light or between crosswalks then it is, at least partially, if not mostly your fault.

[hm insulators]

In Arizona, they use portable school zone signs, and they're put out in the streets twice a day, once when the kids are going to school, and again when school lets out. When the kids are gone, they set the signs aside and the speed returns to normal.

The speed limit is 15 during these times, but here's the kicker: You also cannot pass in a school zone when they're in effect. This means, that if I'm doing 10 mph in the school zone (well below the speed limit) and the car next to me is doing 5, I can get a ticket for passing in the school zone, even though I'm only doing 10 mph. I can understand the 15 mph speed limit, but the part about no passing is stupid. Does any other state have this idiotic law?