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Author Topic: NY 17/"I-86"  (Read 53052 times)

TheDon102

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #225 on: February 10, 2020, 07:02:18 PM »

Will we see the full conversion to I-86 in our lifetimes?  :D
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Rothman

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #226 on: February 10, 2020, 09:54:43 PM »

Will we see the full conversion to I-86 in our lifetimes?  :D
No.
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Roadgeek Adam

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #227 on: February 12, 2020, 08:32:04 PM »

I'd rather just take the I-86 shields down.
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Adam Seth Moss
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seicer

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #228 on: February 13, 2020, 07:46:02 AM »

https://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn83031330/1956-12-06/ed-1/seq-1/
The grand opening of the 11 mile Wurtsboro bypass in December 1956.
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jp the roadgeek

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #229 on: February 13, 2020, 11:23:46 AM »

I'd rather just take the I-86 shields down.

The Alleganys would fully endorse this.
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machias

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #230 on: February 14, 2020, 08:08:08 AM »

I'd rather just take the I-86 shields down.

The Alleganys would fully endorse this.

I thought the I-86 markers were fine as long as they weren't on the mile markers or reference markers (which honestly, didn't make a lot of sense to me).
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vdeane

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #231 on: February 14, 2020, 12:56:47 PM »

My understanding is that the complaint boils down to the fact that the agreement to build NY 17 though Seneca lands specifically says "NY 17" and not "I-86", and therefore they're claiming the I-86 signs are illegal.  Apparently they only noticed the mile markers for some reason?  Personally, I don't get the point of the complaint, but it was apparently enough to get Region 5 to take the mile markers down.
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amroad17

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #232 on: February 15, 2020, 07:55:06 AM »

https://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn83031330/1956-12-06/ed-1/seq-1/
The grand opening of the 11 mile Wurtsboro bypass in December 1956.
"hundreds of cards poised to speed..."?

^ The Seneca Nation has been fighting the NY 17/I-86 freeway since its inception--but maybe not hard enough so as to build a casino next to it in Salamanca.
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amroad17

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #233 on: February 15, 2020, 08:01:57 AM »

I'd rather just take the I-86 shields down.
I can see having I-86 shields from I-90 near Erie to I-81 in Binghamton.  The section from Binghamton to Harriman is a completely different animal, being that much of this section was built in the 1950's and early 1960's.  Yes, there are some sections (east of Binghamton, Parksville, near I-84, and maybe Liberty) that have been upgraded to Interstate standards, however, there is still a lot of work that needs to be done to get this section signed as I-86--something many of us may not see in our lifetime.
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jp the roadgeek

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #234 on: February 15, 2020, 10:01:12 AM »

I can see having I-86 shields from I-90 near Erie to I-81 in Binghamton. 

In that case, I would just extend I-88 west via a 2-mile concurrency with I-81 and be done with 86.
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Alps

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #235 on: February 15, 2020, 10:50:58 AM »

I can see having I-86 shields from I-90 near Erie to I-81 in Binghamton. 

In that case, I would just extend I-88 west via a 2-mile concurrency with I-81 and be done with 86.
You would... 86 it. :)
I would do the opposite - call everything 86 and get rid of the western 86. Now you've sunk two duplicate numbering battleships. But there are already I-86 shields up in Orange County and I do believe we will see I-86 done in my lifetime.

Rothman

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #236 on: February 16, 2020, 10:00:07 AM »

I can see having I-86 shields from I-90 near Erie to I-81 in Binghamton. 

In that case, I would just extend I-88 west via a 2-mile concurrency with I-81 and be done with 86.
You would... 86 it. :)
I would do the opposite - call everything 86 and get rid of the western 86. Now you've sunk two duplicate numbering battleships. But there are already I-86 shields up in Orange County and I do believe we will see I-86 done in my lifetime.
And what do you base your optimism on?

The last seriously programmed conversion projects are done and there is no impetus or motivation to program the rest at this point.

NYSDOT federal funding has remained essentially flat with state bonding supporting current megaprojects.  Conditions across the state are still declining.  Conversion for I-86 has been viewed as a luxury.

NYSDOT commissioners since Parksvile have not seen the point of the conversion, insofar as I am aware.

I don't see I-86 conversion happening over at least the next 10 years.  It will only happen after that with a strong politician pushing for it, so it goes from a hard no over the next decade to simply "unlikely" after that.

(personal opinion empashized)
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vdeane

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #237 on: February 16, 2020, 07:37:12 PM »

Well, 10 years is less than the time most of us will live for, so there's that.  As for projects, the 17 forward 86 coalition keeps pushing hard for a widening from Monticello east, and if that actually happened, most/all of the work needed east of Parksville.  Much of the rest looks like the type of safety improvement project that I could see trickling through the pipeline over time as Main Office issues its periodic calls for beyond preservation projects to fund.  And the, eventually, that would leave just Hale Eddy... and then whatever governor is in power then will be able to claim that they finished I-86 if the push the project through.  Remember the fanfare over Cuomo building exit 3?  A whole new interstate east of Binghamton would be even bigger than that.

(personal opinion)
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Hwy 61 Revisited

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #238 on: February 16, 2020, 08:06:28 PM »

Well, 10 years is less than the time most of us will live for, so there's that.  As for projects, the 17 forward 86 coalition keeps pushing hard for a widening from Monticello east, and if that actually happened, most/all of the work needed east of Parksville.  Much of the rest looks like the type of safety improvement project that I could see trickling through the pipeline over time as Main Office issues its periodic calls for beyond preservation projects to fund.  And the, eventually, that would leave just Hale Eddy... and then whatever governor is in power then will be able to claim that they finished I-86 if the push the project through.  Remember the fanfare over Cuomo building exit 3?  A whole new interstate east of Binghamton would be even bigger than that.

(personal opinion)

Maybe for now, we should just switch the freeway section of NY 17 to NY 86 (or just cosign them), then extend 32 along the surface portions.
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Roadgeek Adam

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #239 on: February 16, 2020, 08:30:16 PM »

The problem is NY 17 doesn't need to be a full fledged interstate. It never has had to be. There isn't the traffic numbers to justify more than basic work. It may be convenient, which is fine, but we didn't need to drop all this money into it.

We live in an era where people are more reliant on GPS technology rather than the road signs. At the same time, the concept of the route designation is almost meaningless because of it. I don't think a general driver cares that it's NY 17 versus Interstate 86. The marketing strength of the 380 mile road is not big enough to say that the value of an interstate designation is enough to change things.

When this project was started (1999), no one really  could see this kind of thing coming. Now it's 2020. The parts that needed to be worked on (Prospect Mtn, Parksville, east of 84) are being worked on. It has served fine as NY 17 and should remain NY 17. 
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Adam Seth Moss
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vdeane

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #240 on: February 16, 2020, 08:32:51 PM »

Maybe for now, we should just switch the freeway section of NY 17 to NY 86 (or just cosign them), then extend 32 along the surface portions.
NY 86 already exists in the Adirondacks.
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empirestate

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #241 on: February 21, 2020, 05:14:19 PM »

The problem is NY 17 doesn't need to be a full fledged interstate. It never has had to be. There isn't the traffic numbers to justify more than basic work. It may be convenient, which is fine, but we didn't need to drop all this money into it.

[…]

When this project was started (1999), no one really  could see this kind of thing coming. Now it's 2020. The parts that needed to be worked on (Prospect Mtn, Parksville, east of 84) are being worked on. It has served fine as NY 17 and should remain NY 17. 

And I don't know that Parksville belongs in the "needed" category. That was some intensive roadworks that got done there, and all it did was bypass a single traffic signal that served as a convenient waypoint. Stopping at Parksville for ice cream was always assumed to be a part of any trip I took through the area.
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Rothman

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #242 on: February 21, 2020, 11:23:12 PM »

The problem is NY 17 doesn't need to be a full fledged interstate. It never has had to be. There isn't the traffic numbers to justify more than basic work. It may be convenient, which is fine, but we didn't need to drop all this money into it.

[…]

When this project was started (1999), no one really  could see this kind of thing coming. Now it's 2020. The parts that needed to be worked on (Prospect Mtn, Parksville, east of 84) are being worked on. It has served fine as NY 17 and should remain NY 17. 

And I don't know that Parksville belongs in the "needed" category. That was some intensive roadworks that got done there, and all it did was bypass a single traffic signal that served as a convenient waypoint. Stopping at Parksville for ice cream was always assumed to be a part of any trip I took through the area.
Nothing prevents you from stopping for ice cream now.
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empirestate

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #243 on: February 21, 2020, 11:33:02 PM »

The problem is NY 17 doesn't need to be a full fledged interstate. It never has had to be. There isn't the traffic numbers to justify more than basic work. It may be convenient, which is fine, but we didn't need to drop all this money into it.

[…]

When this project was started (1999), no one really  could see this kind of thing coming. Now it's 2020. The parts that needed to be worked on (Prospect Mtn, Parksville, east of 84) are being worked on. It has served fine as NY 17 and should remain NY 17. 

And I don't know that Parksville belongs in the "needed" category. That was some intensive roadworks that got done there, and all it did was bypass a single traffic signal that served as a convenient waypoint. Stopping at Parksville for ice cream was always assumed to be a part of any trip I took through the area.
Nothing prevents you from stopping for ice cream now.

There's no longer an ice cream shop.
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SteveG1988

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #244 on: February 22, 2020, 02:05:01 AM »

The problem is NY 17 doesn't need to be a full fledged interstate. It never has had to be. There isn't the traffic numbers to justify more than basic work. It may be convenient, which is fine, but we didn't need to drop all this money into it.

[…]

When this project was started (1999), no one really  could see this kind of thing coming. Now it's 2020. The parts that needed to be worked on (Prospect Mtn, Parksville, east of 84) are being worked on. It has served fine as NY 17 and should remain NY 17. 

And I don't know that Parksville belongs in the "needed" category. That was some intensive roadworks that got done there, and all it did was bypass a single traffic signal that served as a convenient waypoint. Stopping at Parksville for ice cream was always assumed to be a part of any trip I took through the area.
Nothing prevents you from stopping for ice cream now.

There's no longer an ice cream shop.

All i can think of now

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AMLNet49

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #245 on: February 22, 2020, 03:52:14 PM »

We live in an era where people are more reliant on GPS technology rather than the road signs. At the same time, the concept of the route designation is almost meaningless because of it. I don't think a general driver cares that it's NY 17 versus Interstate 86. The marketing strength of the 380 mile road is not big enough to say that the value of an interstate designation is enough to change things.

When this project was started (1999), no one really  could see this kind of thing coming. Now it's 2020. The parts that needed to be worked on (Prospect Mtn, Parksville, east of 84) are being worked on. It has served fine as NY 17 and should remain NY 17.

This isn’t really true. This may be true of some things like signage (which I’d argue is still important to confirm your gps – see how people freak out when signage changes)

But people generally know there are a few types of roads with the highest class being “interstate”. The brand absolutely has a lot of prestige. The Branding potential of I-86 happens to be less than average, but don’t generalize the system based on one road. The I-69 megaproject shows you the value of the interstate brand even today.
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sparker

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #246 on: February 22, 2020, 04:20:22 PM »

We live in an era where people are more reliant on GPS technology rather than the road signs. At the same time, the concept of the route designation is almost meaningless because of it. I don't think a general driver cares that it's NY 17 versus Interstate 86. The marketing strength of the 380 mile road is not big enough to say that the value of an interstate designation is enough to change things.

When this project was started (1999), no one really  could see this kind of thing coming. Now it's 2020. The parts that needed to be worked on (Prospect Mtn, Parksville, east of 84) are being worked on. It has served fine as NY 17 and should remain NY 17.

This isn’t really true. This may be true of some things like signage (which I’d argue is still important to confirm your gps – see how people freak out when signage changes)

But people generally know there are a few types of roads with the highest class being “interstate”. The brand absolutely has a lot of prestige. The Branding potential of I-86 happens to be less than average, but don’t generalize the system based on one road. The I-69 megaproject shows you the value of the interstate brand even today.

"Branding"-wise, this particular corridor has a long storied history as "Highway 17" -- a long leg of the main route from metro NYC up to the Catskill resort area.   It's likely I-86 won't enhance that recognition (here, retention of the original shields would likely be wise if not absolutely necessary!).  The whole I-86 concept dating from 1999 was to give upstate NY the opportunity to at some level compete with I-80 across PA as a more direct route west from NYC metro as well as lower New England.  Much of that will be accomplished when the portion west of I-81 is fully completed (via either I-88 or a detour via Scranton).   

A side story -- my first venture on NY 17 came about on a return trip from NYC to CA; that year's ('89) McNally atlas had a series of suggested regional adventures; NY 17 in its whole was touted as "America's Autobahn" because of its scenic aspects (the section west from I-390 was relatively new then).  I for one found it a very enjoyable drive.  At that time the freeway ended at Corning (the bypass was U.C. in 1989); my now ex-wife insisted on perusing the Corning Glass museum and shop (IIRC, she spent about $250 on crystal vases -- her favorite decoration).  The bottom line is that the McNally write-up convinced me to try the route -- a decade before I-designation was contemplated.

NY 17 is and always has been a pleasant enough highway; if the prospective I-86 designation is what it takes to address the various safety-related issues on the eastern portion (yeah, some of the ramps require judicious use of brakes!), then more power to that concept reaching fruition.  But an Interstate designation won't do much to "sell" the road -- it's essentially pre-sold!     
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webny99

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #247 on: February 22, 2020, 08:54:48 PM »

Low traffic is actually a big part of what "makes" I-86/NY 17, along with the scenery. I'd love to see blue and red shields along the entire route, but as time passes I feel less strongly about the impact one way or another.

Now that it's complete between PA and Binghamton, we have an alternate Erie-Albany (and, by extension, Cleveland-Boston) corridor. That's all that really matters: the Binghamton-NYC segment, even as a complete I-86, will never be able to supplant I-81 - I-380 - I-80 anyways. It's just too winding and too much work would have to be done to make it 65 mph throughout.
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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #248 on: February 22, 2020, 10:15:35 PM »

Luckily, the only at-grade portion between 81 and 87 is in Hale Eddy. If we can get that fixed, then we may as well make it Interstate-grade throughout.

Hell, maybe we should just extend 32 southward already!
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Rothman

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Re: NY 17/"I-86"
« Reply #249 on: February 22, 2020, 11:32:31 PM »

The underestimating of how much conversion work is needed continues...
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