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Author Topic: Pre-Metric Relics  (Read 32669 times)

ghYHZ

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Pre-Metric Relics
« on: November 16, 2011, 05:55:43 AM »

Signs were recently replaced at the TCH106 Rotary at Pictou, NS……somehow they missed this one!



http://g.co/maps/m6qwn

Sign would have been erected in 1968 when that section of the Trans Canada opened and converted to Metric in 1977…….but its roots are clearly showing!

Let’s see your photos of any other pre-metric relics out there.

  
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 07:52:53 AM by ghYHZ »
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RoadWarrior56

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2011, 07:17:32 AM »

I don't know if they are still there, but back in '05 when I drove through Calgary on the freeway that goes N-S, there were a few bridge clearance warning signs that were still in feet and inches.  They made me feel at home.
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Alps

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 07:25:29 PM »

Several other ones around my NS pages, but the first one I thought of when I saw the thread title is the one you posted!

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 11:27:51 PM »

I don't know if they are still there, but back in '05 when I drove through Calgary on the freeway that goes N-S, there were a few bridge clearance warning signs that were still in feet and inches.  They made me feel at home.

It's a shame Canada changed; there was no reason to change to the French system.  However, the Canadian building trades flat out rejected Trudeau and his ego trip and still use Imperial measurements for building structures.
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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 11:31:18 PM »

Quote
It's a shame Canada changed; there was no reason to change to the French system.  However, the Canadian building trades flat out rejected Trudeau and his ego trip and still use Imperial measurements for building structures.

Besides the fact that the entire rest of the world besides one superpower and a couple third world countries are using it? And the whole Canadian cultural desire to differentiate herself from the USA?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 11:58:51 PM by corco »
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J N Winkler

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2011, 12:49:41 AM »

I don't know about that, Corco.  Canada's struggle to self-define a cultural identity distinct from that of the USA has led to its being labeled a "nation of assistant professors," but I think Canadian metric conversion has to be seen in the context of a wider push toward metric in the Anglophone world during the 1970's.  Canada, New Zealand, and Australia all converted to metric in the 1970's, and planning for metric conversion was well underway in the US and Britain at the same time.

Canada had no control over metric conversion in the US.  If it had gone forward, instead of stalling after a few localized experiments like I-19, control-city distance signing in Ohio, and dual-units signing in California, the same units system would be in use on both sides of the border and would not be a differentiating feature.
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ghYHZ

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2011, 05:56:23 AM »

It's a shame Canada changed; there was no reason to change to the French system.  However, the Canadian building trades flat out rejected Trudeau and his ego trip and still use Imperial measurements for building structures.
And why is it a shame? You are viewing this from the side-lines…….I’m a Canadian, an Engineering Technologist, use it every day and have been for 30+ years. I’m totally “bilingual” and can switch back and forth between either system, but I DO prefer metric….just makes so much more sense! You still hear the occasional “I’ll never get used to that “new” system” but metric was introduced a long time ago, a whole generation + ago. For someone that entered school back in the late ‘70s, this is the system they’ve been taught but most can easily function in Imperial measure too   
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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2011, 07:43:16 AM »

Even metric isn't esier than the typical American answer to unit conversion: don't.  :-D
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1995hoo

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2011, 07:49:43 AM »

It's a shame Canada changed; there was no reason to change to the French system.  However, the Canadian building trades flat out rejected Trudeau and his ego trip and still use Imperial measurements for building structures.
And why is it a shame? You are viewing this from the side-lines…….I’m a Canadian, an Engineering Technologist, use it every day and have been for 30+ years. I’m totally “bilingual” and can switch back and forth between either system, but I DO prefer metric….just makes so much more sense! You still hear the occasional “I’ll never get used to that “new” system” but metric was introduced a long time ago, a whole generation + ago. For someone that entered school back in the late ‘70s, this is the system they’ve been taught but most can easily function in Imperial measure too    

I've lived in the USA my entire life (vacations in Canada and Europe don't count) and I much prefer metric to the silly gibberish measurements used here. It makes a hell of a lot more sense. Plus I'm that age where when I was a kid starting school it was the time when the USA was supposedly going to be switching over soon, so from kindergarten through about the fourth grade the teachers focused more on teaching us metric units than they did the old-fashioned ones. There was some time spent on the American units, just not very much. I thought there were 12 ounces in a pound until I was in my 20s because so many things are sold in 12-ounce packages (yeah, I didn't realize there are two different units of measure with the same name, one for liquids and one for solids).

I find some American objections to metric measurements to be just stupid. My old boss's secretary once said, "How would you be able to tell how fast you're going?" I looked at her and said, with a straight face, "See, there's a speed limit sign that says '100.' You look at the little needle on your dashboard and if it's pointing at '100' you're going the speed limit." I also don't understand how Americans can claim metric is "too confusing." If that's so, shouldn't our money be too confusing to understand? It's decimal as well, after all.

I will concede that until your mind adjusts, using degrees Celsius is probably a harder adjustment for most people than weights and distances.


Regarding signs, I haven't used the road since 2006, but for many years there was (may still be) a sign just north of the border on Autoroute 15 that said, in French and English, "Our Traffic Signs Are Metric." Then it had a diagram showing a sign on the left that says "Maximum 60/40 Minimum." That sign was crossed out in red and an arrow pointed to another sign on the right that said "Maximum 100/60 Minimum/km/h." (The slashes, except for the one in "km/h," denote where the following text was on another sign.) I always found this sign a bit amusing because if its intent is to help American tourists, it arguably fails because Americans don't have speed limit signs that say "Maximum 60." I thought it would have been more effective if the sign on the left had said "Speed Limit 60."
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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2011, 08:11:55 AM »

Here we go again...
Personally I prefer having a distance measurement system that corresponds to the Public Land Survey System. I don't really care about weights and volumes, but there's absolutely no advantage of Celsius over Fahrenheit, since you can't multiply in a temperature system that's not zeroed on absolute zero. Switching to metric time would be more logical than to Celsius.
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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2011, 09:53:43 AM »

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 06:16:27 PM »

The French tried that during the Revolution. Didn't work too well.

I could get used to that 5-day work week...er, décade.

Remembering 360 day names, now that's a bit tricky.

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2011, 07:15:39 PM »

Regarding signs, I haven't used the road since 2006, but for many years there was (may still be) a sign just north of the border on Autoroute 15 that said, in French and English, "Our Traffic Signs Are Metric." Then it had a diagram showing a sign on the left that says "Maximum 60/40 Minimum." That sign was crossed out in red and an arrow pointed to another sign on the right that said "Maximum 100/60 Minimum/km/h."

May 2011:

Similar idea, but not bilingual.

Handling speed limits and distances in meters and kilometers is quite easy for me, at least insofar as driving is concerned. I can "Thinkmetric", as the old signs said. And liters I understand just as easily as gallons since, after all, we do use them here!

Other measures are more difficult. Celsius I usually need to convert to Fahrenheit to really comprehend. Kilograms I need to convert to pounds somewhat.

And then of course you have things that are selective comprehension based on application. Say you have a 60 Watt lightbulb and I know exactly what you mean. But say you have a 60 Watt motor and I'll be like "huh, what?". Motor capacities are always measured in horsepower.


All things considered, metric is definitely a neater, simpler system to use if you're used to it. But realistically the costs for the US to convert would be astronomical and we don't have the money. That, and Americans are stubborn and we like being different. :-P
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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 11:48:08 PM »

I can only think of one particular sign in my area that used to tell a distance in imperial units. On "STOP AHEAD" signs, we used to put the distance to the stop inside the red octogon, and I'm pretty sure at least one has been modified from "500" (feet) to "50m"... quite sloppily too.

But this really is the only one I can think of.

Nova Scotia has a good number of very old signs with remnants of imperial units, though.
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1995hoo

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2011, 07:57:11 AM »

Regarding signs, I haven't used the road since 2006, but for many years there was (may still be) a sign just north of the border on Autoroute 15 that said, in French and English, "Our Traffic Signs Are Metric." Then it had a diagram showing a sign on the left that says "Maximum 60/40 Minimum." That sign was crossed out in red and an arrow pointed to another sign on the right that said "Maximum 100/60 Minimum/km/h."

May 2011:

Similar idea, but not bilingual.

....

That sign makes more sense because of the "mph" plaque.
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formulanone

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2011, 08:15:07 AM »

Handling speed limits and distances in meters and kilometers is quite easy for me, at least insofar as driving is concerned. I can "Thinkmetric", as the old signs said. [...] Kilograms I need to convert to pounds somewhat.

Same here, if we went to cm-km or kg overnight, I would be fine.

I think part of this is if you've ever been to a foreign country, and you perform a mental calculation to make sure you aren't being ripped off between your currency and the one you now need to use. After a day or two, you barely think twice about it (if they use a "metric" form of currency, that is; I can only imagine the hijinks of visiting the UK before their currency changes for 1970).

Quote
Other measures are more difficult. Celsius I usually need to convert to Fahrenheit to really comprehend.
I think that one would be the tricky one. Great for methods refrigeration and freezers, but of little helpful difference for anything else. Conversion factor is also really odd. Kelvin is really the only scientific scale (and nobody publicly uses that for discussing ambient temperatures).

Quote
But say you have a 60 Watt motor and I'll be like "huh, what?". Motor capacities are always measured in horsepower.

Interestingly, power ratings are all over the map, literally.

We use Horsepower, but on some nations they use the kW (kilowatt), which 1 hp = 0.986 kW. Some automakers didn't like advertising a "decrease" in power...
but Germany and some parts of Europe and Japan occasionally use the Pferdestärke or PS: which is literally the inverse: 1 PS = 0.986 hp. For all intents and purposes, it's quite close (almost nobody can notice a 5 hp difference, anyhow).

Even if we did a massive conversion, I don't think there would be a massive improvement in efficiency with business, government, and industry just because we suddently went metric; if anything, we'd be collectively flummoxed for a year or two. There would be so many holdouts and exceptions granted (sports, traditions, non-profits, as to make things even more annoying).

That sign makes more sense because of the "mph" plaque.

Except 62 mph = 100 km/h.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 08:22:16 AM by formulanone »
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vdeane

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2011, 09:37:18 AM »

There's a similar speed limit conversion sign on ON 137 north leaving Hill Island.
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1995hoo

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2011, 11:00:46 AM »

That sign makes more sense because of the "mph" plaque.

Except 62 mph = 100 km/h.

Technically, yes. However, the point of the sign is not to be hypertechnical, but rather to remind the driver which measurements are in use, especially since many Canadian speed limit signs no longer have the supplemental "km/h" reminder underneath. Conversions of speed limits are not normally hard conversions where you switch to the exact number (though there used to be a sign on I-87 just south of the border that showed 105 km/h switching to 65 mph). Rather, a speed limit of 60 mph or 65 mph usually switches to 100 km/h even though it's not an exact conversion; 65 might also switch to 110. Speed limits aren't normally posted in increments of anything other than 5 mph in the USA, and in Canada the only times I can recall seeing 5 km/h gradients were on yellow advisory speed signs. Even the MUTCD edition that used metric as the primary system of measurement used soft conversions, as I distinctly recall it referring to 100 km/h and then saying "65 mph" in parentheses.

So anyway, as a practical matter, the sign is accurate from the standpoint that they're saying a 60-mph speed limit changes to a 100 km/h speed limit.

Point is, I understand what you're saying and I concede your accuracy, but I think the level of precision you're referring to isn't necessarily beneficial on a road sign that's intended as purely informational. A distance sign ought to be either converted more precisely or, if round units are preferred, relocated to ensure the right distance, but the intent of a distance sign is very different from a sign of the particular sort at issue here.


There's a similar speed limit conversion sign on ON 137 north leaving Hill Island.

Been a long time since I went northbound that way—only been southbound recently. The sign I remember there from family vacations when I was a kid said "Canada has gone metric!" (with the exclamation point) and I don't remember what the speed limit information underneath looked like. I seem to recall a US-style speed limit sign on the left and it then said "changes to" with a Canadian-style sign on the right. I have no clue what the numbers were. I understand why in Quebec they'd use a different scheme due to the language issue.

The ferry terminal in Yarmouth didn't have any sort of advisory sign and I just don't remember as to any of the other border crossings I've used because I wasn't paying attention.



Edited to add: Alps Roads has a picture of the Autoroute 15 sign I recall being there as recently as a trip to Mont-Tremblant in January 2006. I understand he doesn't like people to embed his images elsewhere, so I've simply linked the page. BTW, I agree with him about liking their four-way stop indication.

Edited to add: They removed bandwidth limitations, so go ahead.


Photo by Averill Hecht ( alhecht at comcast.net ) who asked that he receive credit.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:14:45 PM by US71 »
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"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

J N Winkler

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2011, 11:38:02 AM »

I think part of this is if you've ever been to a foreign country, and you perform a mental calculation to make sure you aren't being ripped off between your currency and the one you now need to use. After a day or two, you barely think twice about it (if they use a "metric" form of currency, that is; I can only imagine the hijinks of visiting the UK before their currency changes for 1970).

It is actually not that difficult.  4 farthings to a penny, 12 pennies to a shilling, 20 shillings to the pound.  Things ceased to be priced in farthings several decades before decimalization, so the system had been simplified even further.  In practice only fairly major purchases were priced out in full in pounds, shillings, and pence.  Most other things, like groceries and paperback books, were priced just in shillings and pence (often separated with a slash and a hyphen for whole shilling amounts:  e.g., 5/-).  The pound was not really pocket money until after inflation in the 1960's and 1970's.  To give an idea of how valuable the pound was, in the 1930's £500 was a typical price for a house.  I also don't think £1 was the lowest denomination of paper currency until relatively late (I believe five-shilling and ten-shilling banknotes were issued at various points in the pre-decimalization period).

The real difficulty came immediately after decimalization, when pre-decimal currency was still in circulation and people had to memorize "old money" and "new money" conversion factors until it was withdrawn from circulation (I think it has since been demonetized).  As an example, two old sixpence coins would have been worth five "new pence" (two sixpence = 1 shilling = 1/20 of £1 = 5p).  Occasionally, in works of popular history, you will see people do these conversions in order to make pre-decimal money amounts accessible to readers who were not born in 1970.  I did not do this in my own graduate thesis, and instead quoted amounts in £ s. d., Reichsmarks, and pre-World War II Italian lire as they were given in the original sources, but whenever I needed to give an impression of how large an amount was compared to other prospective uses of the money, I mentioned things like the cost of milk for schoolchildren, the cost of a "corporation" house, etc.

Quote
Even if we did a massive conversion, I don't think there would be a massive improvement in efficiency with business, government, and industry just because we suddently went metric; if anything, we'd be collectively flummoxed for a year or two. There would be so many holdouts and exceptions granted (sports, traditions, non-profits, as to make things even more annoying).

I tend to agree that we have already gone to metric in nearly all of those areas where switching costs would be liquidated by operating efficiencies over time.  Distance indications on highway signs are not one of them, though a case could be made for height and regulated mass indications on signs.  (In Britain, the regulatory basis for lorry weights has been "maximum authorised mass," expressed in metric units, since 1981, and dual-units signing for bridge clearances has been available since the late 1980's.  In both cases these changes are designed to accommodate international freight movements.  It has since been suggested that dual-unit clearance signing should be made mandatory, or alternatively that clearances should be signed only in metric, since even a mild bridge strike can result in derailment.)

In the US metric units on signs are not even on the table.  The real battle, which has been raging since the mid-1990's and has now been settled decisively in favor of English units, is metrication of highway design and construction.  Many highway engineers would far prefer to work in metric because units for things like stress and strain are dimensionally correct, unlike the English-unit equivalents.  However, the contracting community has resisted metrication because it is costly to change out standardized components like sewer pipe and day laborers have little vernacular knowledge of metric.
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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2011, 01:44:42 PM »

It is actually not that difficult.  4 farthings to a penny, 12 pennies to a shilling, 20 shillings to the pound.  Things ceased to be priced in farthings several decades before decimalization, so the system had been simplified even further.  In practice only fairly major purchases were priced out in full in pounds, shillings, and pence.  Most other things, like groceries and paperback books, were priced just in shillings and pence (often separated with a slash and a hyphen for whole shilling amounts:  e.g., 5/-).  The pound was not really pocket money until after inflation in the 1960's and 1970's.  To give an idea of how valuable the pound was, in the 1930's £500 was a typical price for a house.  I also don't think £1 was the lowest denomination of paper currency until relatively late (I believe five-shilling and ten-shilling banknotes were issued at various points in the pre-decimalization period).
Indeed, you'd only really have worked in two units (pounds and shillings for the rich, for whom the pennies didn't matter, and shillings and pence for everyone else). Even in '58, when my Grandparent's bought their house (now worth something like £180k, if not more), either their mortgage, or their full house price was £600.

Half a penny was also a decimal coin until the mid-80s (and was worth the equivalent of 2p in today's money), despite the penny changing at decimalisation (with 12d becoming 5p). The ten-bob note remained until decimalisation, IIRC.

I think those who said that decimal money would be too complex had a point - yes, it's easier to use, but there was a horrendous change that went better than could be expected, some serious price inflation in the conversion (also happened in many Eurozone countries when they switched) - for instance I have a late 60s map of Jersey with a decimal price overlaid over the s/d price (6/6 became 55p, when that would be 32.5p in a direct conversion - inflation in the early 70s couldn't have been high enough to cause a 40% mark up in a couple of years). You could have simply had 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 shillings, and ditch £sd notation for £s. You'd lose the eighth-shilling coin after about 15 years, quarter-shilling after 20ish, half-shilling after 30ish.
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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2011, 04:06:42 PM »

That sign makes more sense because of the "mph" plaque.

Except 62 mph = 100 km/h.

Technically, yes. However, the point of the sign is not to be hypertechnical, but rather to remind the driver which measurements are in use, especially since many Canadian speed limit signs no longer have the supplemental "km/h" reminder underneath. Conversions of speed limits are not normally hard conversions where you switch to the exact number (though there used to be a sign on I-87 just south of the border that showed 105 km/h switching to 65 mph). Rather, a speed limit of 60 mph or 65 mph usually switches to 100 km/h even though it's not an exact conversion; 65 might also switch to 110. Speed limits aren't normally posted in increments of anything other than 5 mph in the USA, and in Canada the only times I can recall seeing 5 km/h gradients were on yellow advisory speed signs. Even the MUTCD edition that used metric as the primary system of measurement used soft conversions, as I distinctly recall it referring to 100 km/h and then saying "65 mph" in parentheses.

So anyway, as a practical matter, the sign is accurate from the standpoint that they're saying a 60-mph speed limit changes to a 100 km/h speed limit.

Point is, I understand what you're saying and I concede your accuracy, but I think the level of precision you're referring to isn't necessarily beneficial on a road sign that's intended as purely informational. A distance sign ought to be either converted more precisely or, if round units are preferred, relocated to ensure the right distance, but the intent of a distance sign is very different from a sign of the particular sort at issue here.


There's a similar speed limit conversion sign on ON 137 north leaving Hill Island.

Been a long time since I went northbound that way—only been southbound recently. The sign I remember there from family vacations when I was a kid said "Canada has gone metric!" (with the exclamation point) and I don't remember what the speed limit information underneath looked like. I seem to recall a US-style speed limit sign on the left and it then said "changes to" with a Canadian-style sign on the right. I have no clue what the numbers were. I understand why in Quebec they'd use a different scheme due to the language issue.

The ferry terminal in Yarmouth didn't have any sort of advisory sign and I just don't remember as to any of the other border crossings I've used because I wasn't paying attention.



Edited to add: Alps Roads has a picture of the Autoroute 15 sign I recall being there as recently as a trip to Mont-Tremblant in January 2006. I understand he doesn't like people to embed his images elsewhere, so I've simply linked the page. BTW, I agree with him about liking their four-way stop indication.


In the early 80s Florida had km/H supplemental signs. I remember them being EVERYWHERE around Jacksonville.  They have all been replaced by now, I know of a couple speed limit signs on side roads that have been downgraded from SR that have MPH qualifiers on the sign. ( Michael Summa had pics of a few)  The signs had the Km/H listed in the closest 0 or 5.  (45mph=70km/h 25MPH= 40km/h.)  EXCEPT 55MPH was not signed as 90km/h but as 88km/h.  At 11 this bugged me and it still does... But I guess in 1981 the max speed limit was legally 55 and not 57.whaterver(?) MPH would have been recommending an illegal speed...
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1995hoo

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2011, 05:19:31 PM »

In the early 80s Florida had km/H supplemental signs. I remember them being EVERYWHERE around Jacksonville.  They have all been replaced by now, I know of a couple speed limit signs on side roads that have been downgraded from SR that have MPH qualifiers on the sign. ( Michael Summa had pics of a few)  The signs had the Km/H listed in the closest 0 or 5.  (45mph=70km/h 25MPH= 40km/h.)  EXCEPT 55MPH was not signed as 90km/h but as 88km/h.  At 11 this bugged me and it still does... But I guess in 1981 the max speed limit was legally 55 and not 57.whaterver(?) MPH would have been recommending an illegal speed...

That's exactly the reason—the old NMSL prohibited a state from posting any speed limit higher than 55 mph on pain of losing federal highway funds, so they didn't dare post anything above 88 km/h. I think I read somewhere that there were a few such signs on the New York Thruway near Syracuse. I never saw them so I don't know for sure.
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J N Winkler

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2011, 05:54:42 PM »

That's exactly the reason—the old NMSL prohibited a state from posting any speed limit higher than 55 mph on pain of losing federal highway funds, so they didn't dare post anything above 88 km/h. I think I read somewhere that there were a few such signs on the New York Thruway near Syracuse. I never saw them so I don't know for sure.

In point of fact, 88 km/h represents a very slight speed limit cut from 55 MPH because the conversion factor is not 1.6 km/h = 1 MPH exactly (it is more like 1.6093).  55 MPH is 88.515 km/h.

Arizona DOT could have posted 88 km/h signs on I-19 (as originally planned in 1981) without running foul of the NMSL, and even for speed maniacs a cut of half a kilometer per hour is too little to fuss about.  So the mystery of why the 88 km/h signs were either not posted at all, or posted and then taken down, remains unsolved.
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vdeane

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2011, 11:27:34 AM »

Been a long time since I went northbound that way—only been southbound recently. The sign I remember there from family vacations when I was a kid said "Canada has gone metric!" (with the exclamation point) and I don't remember what the speed limit information underneath looked like. I seem to recall a US-style speed limit sign on the left and it then said "changes to" with a Canadian-style sign on the right. I have no clue what the numbers were. I understand why in Quebec they'd use a different scheme due to the language issue.
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Duke87

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Re: Pre-Metric Relics
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2011, 01:47:33 PM »

While I suppose it's helpful to remind drivers that the units are changing (though I personally could not imagine absent-mindedly driving down some Canadian side street and thinking the speed limit was 50 mph... I mean, the signs look different!), showing conversions is kinda unnecessary since all speedometers in US cars have km/h on them, anyway.

The problem is more the other way around... I do believe many Canadian cars do not have mph on the speedometer (making knowing conversions necessary). And in addition, signs on the US side making a similar announcement of "hey, our speed limits are in mph, suck it Lavoisier!" are not so common (do they even exist anywhere?).
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