Splitting states

[agentsteel53]

They may not mind it, but as a servicemember I can't quite stomach the thought of secession.  The last time someone seriously entertained that concept in this country, we wound up with several hundred thousand deaths.  Imagine how bad it would be in today's world...

man, that Conch Republic really put up a fight, didn't they.

honestly, I think economic and political reality would prevent a full secession.  sure, people would love to have Texas leave the union, or have Florida sawn off Bugs Bunny style...

but we'd realistically end up with a Europe-like set of protocols (Schengen, economic union, court at Brussels, guarantees of basic rights a la EU Charter, etc).  everyone would grumble about having to bail out GreeLouisiana again but it would be necessary just to simply keep the world's economy and society stable.  and such stability agreements would keep a smaller state from going full Uganda on social issues. 

so, the extremists who would - from one side or the other - love to see "Canuckistan" and "Jesusland" be two separate countries, but in reality I doubt the situation would change in any meaningful way.  there just aren't enough extremists to force a war.  the Great Militia of the Independent Republic of Texas would squash those who would want to make outright war with Both Mexicos, New and Classic.

[hbelkins]

They may not mind it, but as a servicemember I can't quite stomach the thought of secession.  The last time someone seriously entertained that concept in this country, we wound up with several hundred thousand deaths.  Imagine how bad it would be in today's world...

Would there be an attempted armed suppression of the secession these days, or would the federal government allow it to happen, unlike the 1860s? I'm not convinced there would be another civil war if secession was attempted. There are a lot of northerners who'd love to see the south and "flyover country" gone from their country.

[Scott5114]

I think we should reunite the Louisiana Purchase. 

If it means we all get KDOT as our DOT, do it.

[Scott5114]

If the federal government keeps operating outside of its constitutional authority and lording over the states like it is now, they will be again. As it is, states are increasingly passing laws to nullify various federal statutes. The logical end result of this movement is someone outright seceding. And we know how that went the last time...

Actually, most liberals would be very happy if the red states just left, and most conservatives would be even happier if the blue states just left, so a split might just be in the future.  Maybe the northeast could just go join Canada.  That would be nice.

Nullification simply isn't a valid legal strategy, as South Carolina learned during the Jackson administration.

As for secession, in a proposed red-state blue-state divided US (which I've pondered as a thought experiment before), I would making moving out of Oklahoma my top priority. I do not trust the state government to act in my best interest without the federal government there to keep it in check. Missouri would be my first choice, assuming it stayed in the US; if it joined the secession movement, I'd probably go for Michigan. However, my girlfriend grew up in California, and still has ties to it, so I would probably end up there instead.

[Henry]

I would like to see New York City split from New York State.

I know that would be a disaster for the city itself without the rest of the state subsidizing it as it currently does, so NYC would never ever even remotely consider it.

Southern Virginia might actually go for it,

No they won't.  They hate Northern Virginia, but they also know that Northern Virginia butters their bread.  IIRC, something like 40-45% of state revenue comes from Northern Virginia.  The rest of the state isn't going to give up their financial lifeline.

A bit of a different situation than Illinois then.  If downstate Illinois ever got the chance to kick Chicago out, they'd take it in a heartbeat.

What's next? Seattle separating from WA? Atlanta separating from GA?

And focusing on the latter, where would the new capital of GA be, if the state no longer included Atlanta?

[hotdogPi]

And focusing on the latter, where would the new capital of GA be, if the state no longer included Atlanta?

Athens. Therefore making Georgia and Greece have the same capital.

[Zeffy]

And focusing on the latter, where would the new capital of GA be, if the state no longer included Atlanta?

Savannah could work...

[Scott5114]

And focusing on the latter, where would the new capital of GA be, if the state no longer included Atlanta?

They should build a new capital named Tbilisi just to fuck with everyone.

[Brandon]

And focusing on the latter, where would the new capital of GA be, if the state no longer included Atlanta?

They should build a new capital named Tbilisi just to fuck with everyone.

The funny thing is, Tbilisi is a sister city of Atlanta.

[vdeane]

And focusing on the latter, where would the new capital of GA be, if the state no longer included Atlanta?

They should build a new capital named Tbilisi just to fuck with everyone.

If they did that, would Russia accidentally invade the US?

[1995hoo]

In many ways it is like DC, though is perhaps given a little bit more autonomy. Plus they get 2 senators (same as NT - the states get 12 each), and representatives in the federal government.

D.C. gets no representation at all in the U.S. Senate, even though it has higher population than at least one state.  Its only representation in the U.S. House of Representatives is a so-called "non-voting" delegate.

I believe DC elects a "shadow senator." Last night I was mocking a campaign sign outside Verizon Center that advertised a candidate for "US Senate." It reminded me of how Delegate Norton pretentiously refers to herself as "Congresswoman."

[cpzilliacus]

I believe DC elects a "shadow senator." Last night I was mocking a campaign sign outside Verizon Center that advertised a candidate for "US Senate." It reminded me of how Delegate Norton pretentiously refers to herself as "Congresswoman."

D.C. has two shadow senators, not taken seriously by most.

Columnist George Will referred to Rev. Jesse Jackson (formerly a D.C. resident and onetime D.C. shadow senator) as "His Shadowship," at least in part in reaction to an incident at the U.S. Capitol where the U.S. Capitol Police declined to give Rev. Jackson the deference that he felt he deserved as a U.S. senator (apparently the Capitol cops gave him none at all, since a "shadow" senator is not a senator as far as they are concerned).

[Brandon]

I believe DC elects a "shadow senator." Last night I was mocking a campaign sign outside Verizon Center that advertised a candidate for "US Senate." It reminded me of how Delegate Norton pretentiously refers to herself as "Congresswoman."

D.C. has two shadow senators, not taken seriously by most.

Columnist George Will referred to Rev. Jesse Jackson (formerly a D.C. resident and onetime D.C. shadow senator) as "His Shadowship," at least in part in reaction to an incident at the U.S. Capitol where the U.S. Capitol Police declined to give Rev. Jackson the deference that he felt he deserved as a U.S. senator (apparently the Capitol cops gave him none at all, since a "shadow" senator is not a senator as far as they are concerned).

LOL!  I'm surprised they didn't refer to Rev. Jackson as "his majesty" for being the "King of Beers".

[jp the roadgeek]

So, here's an idea for redrawing the lines of how state lines could be redrawn for NY state.

-The 5 boroughs, Nassau, Rockland, Putnam, Orange, and Dutchess Counties become a state, and trade Suffolk County to CT for Fairfield County, since Fairfield County residents think they're New Yorkers and many people in Suffolk County identify with New England more.

-The rest of Upstate becomes its own state.

[Pete from Boston]

This reads like a history of 1890s New Jersey.   Loopholes had come to exist that facilitated easy municipal splits, and people  began seceding from their respective townships with abandon over issues like school funding, country folks not wanting to pay for utilities in more developed areas, etc.

Bergen County alone went from 12 to 70 municipalities, with an average size today of 3.5 square miles.  New Jersey in total eventually ended up with 567 municipalities (now back down to 565).

The result of this is a lot of redundant government, and government is expensive even if you love big government. Two police departments each covering 3.5 square miles are more expensive, for example, than one covering 7.  Same with the rest of municipal departments.

The seceding New Jersey towns thought they were going to save money in the long run, just as I'm sure many state-secession proponents do.  But there's a lot of Federal obligations people take for granted, from defense to Social Security to the TVA, etc., that may be onerous now but would very difficult to manage and expensive to duplicate on a smaller scale. 

Likewise, the duplicate costs of running the states of East and West Washington may well similiarly add up to more than those of running Wasington alone.

[oscar]

I believe DC elects a "shadow senator." Last night I was mocking a campaign sign outside Verizon Center that advertised a candidate for "US Senate." It reminded me of how Delegate Norton pretentiously refers to herself as "Congresswoman."

I thought there were two shadow Senators, neither of whom is taken seriously, and I'm not sure they're even allowed on the Senate floor.

Delegate Norton at least has committee voting privileges, which gives her some say on everything short of final passage of legislation, so her pretensions are less silly than those of the shadow Senators.  Indeed, when the Dems controlled the House, didn't she chair the committee overseeing D.C.?  (She's still there, only as ranking member rather than chair.)

[jeffandnicole]

This reads like a history of 1890s New Jersey.   Loopholes had come to exist that facilitated easy municipal splits, and people  began seceding from their respective townships with abandon over issues like school funding, country folks not wanting to pay for utilities in more developed areas, etc.

Bergen County alone went from 12 to 70 municipalities, with an average size today of 3.5 square miles.  New Jersey in total eventually ended up with 567 municipalities (now back down to 565).

The result of this is a lot of redundant government, and government is expensive even if you love big government. Two police departments each covering 3.5 square miles are more expensive, for example, than one covering 7.  Same with the rest of municipal departments.

The seceding New Jersey towns thought they were going to save money in the long run, just as I'm sure many state-secession proponents do.  But there's a lot of Federal obligations people take for granted, from defense to Social Security to the TVA, etc., that may be onerous now but would very difficult to manage and expensive to duplicate on a smaller scale. 

Likewise, the duplicate costs of running the states of East and West Washington may well similiarly add up to more than those of running Wasington alone.

No doubt that's how NJ has a number of 'donut' towns - small towns completely within a larger town around it.

NJ also has numerous school districts - there are more school districts (603) than there are towns (565) in this state.  An amazing 13 school districts don't even have any students!

[NE2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughitis

[Pete from Boston]

This reads like a history of 1890s New Jersey.   Loopholes had come to exist that facilitated easy municipal splits, and people  began seceding from their respective townships with abandon over issues like school funding, country folks not wanting to pay for utilities in more developed areas, etc.

Bergen County alone went from 12 to 70 municipalities, with an average size today of 3.5 square miles.  New Jersey in total eventually ended up with 567 municipalities (now back down to 565).

The result of this is a lot of redundant government, and government is expensive even if you love big government. Two police departments each covering 3.5 square miles are more expensive, for example, than one covering 7.  Same with the rest of municipal departments.

The seceding New Jersey towns thought they were going to save money in the long run, just as I'm sure many state-secession proponents do.  But there's a lot of Federal obligations people take for granted, from defense to Social Security to the TVA, etc., that may be onerous now but would very difficult to manage and expensive to duplicate on a smaller scale. 

Likewise, the duplicate costs of running the states of East and West Washington may well similiarly add up to more than those of running Wasington alone.

No doubt that's how NJ has a number of 'donut' towns - small towns completely within a larger town around it.

NJ also has numerous school districts - there are more school districts (603) than there are towns (565) in this state.  An amazing 13 school districts don't even have any students!

More government per square mile than anywhere on earth, probably.

Alan Karcher, the late Assembly speaker, wrote a book about it called "New Jersey's Multiple Municipal Madness," a title that frankly is more exciting than the material.  He takes pains to advocate for municipal consolidation, but the way folks in the postage-stamp boroughs talk about it, he may as well urge them to marry their dogs.  There's a ridiculous overdeveloped sense of identification with these little boroughs that convinces people the town a mile away is so different they could never be a part of it. 

Can you imagine how much more polarized states would grow if we started splitting them up on political lines?

[SD Mapman]

Can you imagine how much more polarized states would grow if we started splitting them up on political lines?

Naah, SD's already pretty polarized.

[mrsman]

I assume the same with MD 201/MD 295, but the real question is: what happens to the two I-395s and the two I-695s?  I'd renumber the MD I-395 to something else (perhaps a southern big dig type extension of I-83? They're really close together).  DC I-695 would be harder... there aren't any other even x95 routes in Maryland.  It could perhaps become an extension of I-295, with DC 295 becoming MD 201 and MD 295 renumbered to something else.

The Baltimore I-395 could become I-995 (though I would really like for I-97 to be I-995).   I don't see a Big Dig type connection from I-83 (Jones Falls Expressway, JFX for short) to present-day I-395 ever happening.  Among other things, there is buried railroad and the Baltimore Metro line in the way, and going though downtown Baltimore would be hideously expensive.

I agree about Baltimore I-395 becoming I-995 if DC becomes part of MD. For the two I-695s, I'd extend I-97 along I-895 up to I-95, with the section of I-895 South (West) of I-97 becoming I-297. DC I-695 could then become I-895. Problem solved

I would ask VDOT to upgrade all of Va. 110 to a full freeway (it is somewhere between an expressway and an arterial today, with one at-grade intersection), then route I-66 along 110 to present-day I-395, then east across D.C. to D.C. 295/I-295.  The Third Street Tunnel could become I-166.

Perhaps we are getting perilously close to fictional freeways?

Can there be a fictional and off-topic post?

To speak of this thread, I'd say the right thing to do is to retrocede the residential areas of DC into Maryland.  And the old DC should be its own County or independent city (like Baltimore)

What to call it?  There's already Washington, MD and Columbia, MD so maybe Washington DC, MD.  The  area not retroceded can be known as the Federal District, to include the Capitol, the White House, and the Mall.

I strongly feel that all limited access highways, even parkways, should have some sort of numbered shield, even if its not a state highway.  So the entire roadway of I-295/MD-295 should be numbered 295.  For the federal portion of the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, maybe Federal-295.  Designed with a special shield for all NPS parkways (including the George Washington Parkway, and a few others).

I-395 in Baltimore needs renumbered to I-995.  I-695 in DC can be renumbered to I-595. 

What to do about I-595 in MD?  Well, it's a hidden designation that everyone calls US 50.  So you can either drop I-595 from US 50 or you can route the hidden designation along US 50 and (former) DC-295 to connect with the new I-595 designation along the 11th Street bridge.

[vdeane]

Federal Route 295? 

[jeffandnicole]

In a timely article based on how this thread progressed, the Star Ledger of NJ reports today on 10 towns in NJ with odd geographies.  In some cases, various parts of the town are completely seperate from each other.  Not by railroad tracks or highways, but by other towns!

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014/03/njs_weird_geography_10_oddly-shaped_municipalities.html#incart_m-rpt-1

[signalman]

In a timely article based on how this thread progressed, the Star Ledger of NJ reports today on 10 towns in NJ with odd geographies.  In some cases, various parts of the town are completely seperate from each other.  Not by railroad tracks or highways, but by other towns!

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014/03/njs_weird_geography_10_oddly-shaped_municipalities.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Interesting read.  I had always wondered why South Hackensack had 3 disconnected sections.

Also, the municipality that I live in is mentioned in the article 

[Pete from Boston]

In a timely article based on how this thread progressed, the Star Ledger of NJ reports today on 10 towns in NJ with odd geographies.  In some cases, various parts of the town are completely seperate from each other.  Not by railroad tracks or highways, but by other towns!

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014/03/njs_weird_geography_10_oddly-shaped_municipalities.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Interesting read.  I had always wondered why South Hackensack had 3 disconnected sections.

Also, the municipality that I live in is mentioned in the article 

Very interesting.  I didn't know of other fragmented towns left besides South Hackensack.   Washington Township, also in Bergen, had similar exclaves left over from the boroughitis days.  Eventually the last was transferred to Park Ridge in the 50s, but it appeared on the USGS 7.5-minute topo of the area for quite some time after.