California Observations

[Alps]

Furthering your aside... Would it be possible start a thread that shows in detail, via photos or plans sheets, the different types of large-scale sign construction methods? I'd love to get a better visual understanding of these different types.

As requested, there is such a thread now in General Highway Talk.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8977.0

[Lytton]

I don't know if it has been stated yet. But, yeah, the button copy signs are still there because California could not fund it unless its absolutely necessary.

[agentsteel53]

I don't know if it has been stated yet. But, yeah, the button copy signs are still there because California could not fund it unless its absolutely necessary.

except for when they randomly do.  see: "Arroyo Seco must be made a parkway, or else!"

[Lytton]

I don't know if it has been stated yet. But, yeah, the button copy signs are still there because California could not fund it unless its absolutely necessary.

except for when they randomly do.  see: "Arroyo Seco must be made a parkway, or else!"

Have you also noticed that California State Route 209 and 274 are not seen on the freeways anymore. I've just took a drive on I-5 and I-8, and the Route 209 shield would be either hidden with a green reflective square or the sign replaced altogether. I also noticed that Route 163 had Balboa Avenue (Route 274) being replaced with a green reflective sign.

Maybe California has enough of us roadgeeks awing over these deleted routes or something? Or maybe just some tourists got confused.

[rschen7754]

They were decommissioned at around the same time the exit numbers came into play and required sign replacements, so it's not surprising.

[Lytton]

They were decommissioned at around the same time the exit numbers came into play and required sign replacements, so it's not surprising.

Well, it was surprising that they haven't even replaced them for 10 years till now.

[andy3175]

Both Routes 209 and 274 were relinquished to the city of San Diego in May 2001. Signs along both routes started to be removed by 2004, although it took years for most of the signs to be removed. The freeway overhead signs for both routes were removed (or covered up) in Dec 2012. I'm not sure why more than 10 years elapsed between the legislative decommissioning of these routes and the removal of most signs; there were improvements made to Balboa Ave including several new segments of landscaped median after the state transferred control to the city. Now the city streets that were Routes 209 and 274 are now just that: city streets maintained by the city of San Diego. There are still a few 209 and 274 signs in the field (just saw a couple yesterday) ... you just have to know where to look.

More information:

https://www.aaroads.com/california/ca-209.html
https://www.aaroads.com/california/ca-274.html

Regards,
Andy

[DTComposer]

They were decommissioned at around the same time the exit numbers came into play and required sign replacements, so it's not surprising.

Well, it was surprising that they haven't even replaced them for 10 years till now.

Not as surprising if you see how many CA-42 signs are still about...
And, even when they do replace the signs they don't always get it right: the new sign on northbound I-405 at Artesia Boulevard still shows Artesia as CA-91 and Hawthorne Boulevard as CA-107, even though those portions were relinquished in 2003.

[roadfro]

^ In some cases, California sign replacements have been a direct carbon copy of sign legend, just adding an exit number in the corner...

[apjung]

One thing I noticed during a roadtrip last September (Bay Area-Los Angeles-Las Vegas) that all the pole mounted signs (exit signs, single guide signs, Interstate shields, mileage signs, etc.) is that Caltrans use wooden posts instead of metal and I think that's just cheapening it. Louisiana only uses wooden posts as a temporary measure and eventually replaces them with metal posts on a concrete base with a breakaway point on the base of the posts bolted on.

[agentsteel53]

Not as surprising if you see how many CA-42 signs are still about...

the I-5/CA-42 ramp is closed.  CLOSED orange and black signs slapped onto the 1965 porcelain green guide signs.  those guide signs may be going away soon.  there is a button copy 42 sign on the right that is kinda hidden by shrubbery; that one may survive.

[myosh_tino]

One thing I noticed during a roadtrip last September (Bay Area-Los Angeles-Las Vegas) that all the pole mounted signs (exit signs, single guide signs, Interstate shields, mileage signs, etc.) is that Caltrans use wooden posts instead of metal and I think that's just cheapening it. Louisiana only uses wooden posts as a temporary measure and eventually replaces them with metal posts on a concrete base with a breakaway point on the base of the posts bolted on.

I, for one, prefer the wood posts as opposed to metal ones given the natural beauty of California.  Also, wood posts satisfy the "breakaway" requirement for sign posts without additional hardware needing to be installed to provide a specific breakaway point.

[kphoger]

I too was wondering what the problem with wood posts was.  I happen to like both wood and metal.  Just not wood posts that are warped so much that the attached sign leans noticeably.

[brad2971]

One thing I noticed during a roadtrip last September (Bay Area-Los Angeles-Las Vegas) that all the pole mounted signs (exit signs, single guide signs, Interstate shields, mileage signs, etc.) is that Caltrans use wooden posts instead of metal and I think that's just cheapening it. Louisiana only uses wooden posts as a temporary measure and eventually replaces them with metal posts on a concrete base with a breakaway point on the base of the posts bolted on.

I, for one, prefer the wood posts as opposed to metal ones given the natural beauty of California.  Also, wood posts satisfy the "breakaway" requirement for sign posts without additional hardware needing to be installed to provide a specific breakaway point.

This may be a stupid question, or one that goes to Worst/Best/Erroneous Signs, but can anyone name a current example of a sign that does NOT meet the "breakaway" requirement? Either the poles are buried in the ground, or are mounted on a patch of concrete with the breakaway bolt at the base.

[agentsteel53]

do freeway sign bridges have the breakaway requirement?  because if not, I'll bet most of California's are out of spec by virtue of being very, very old.

[brad2971]

Both Routes 209 and 274 were relinquished to the city of San Diego in May 2001. Signs along both routes started to be removed by 2004, although it took years for most of the signs to be removed. The freeway overhead signs for both routes were removed (or covered up) in Dec 2012. I'm not sure why more than 10 years elapsed between the legislative decommissioning of these routes and the removal of most signs; there were improvements made to Balboa Ave including several new segments of landscaped median after the state transferred control to the city. Now the city streets that were Routes 209 and 274 are now just that: city streets maintained by the city of San Diego. There are still a few 209 and 274 signs in the field (just saw a couple yesterday) ... you just have to know where to look.

More information:

https://www.aaroads.com/california/ca-209.html
https://www.aaroads.com/california/ca-274.html

Regards,
Andy

I was in San Diego last Nov, and I still saw 274 shields on the Balboa Ave. exit off the 163. Have those been replaced? I know button copy in Caltrans Dist. 11 (San Diego) is getting rarer and rarer.

[myosh_tino]

do freeway sign bridges have the breakaway requirement?  because if not, I'll bet most of California's are out of spec by virtue of being very, very old.

I'm pretty sure freeway sign bridges don't have a "breakaway" connection but, at least in California, metal beam guardrails are placed around the post(s) to deflect vehicles away from the posts.

[The High Plains Traveler]

One thing I noticed during a roadtrip last September (Bay Area-Los Angeles-Las Vegas) that all the pole mounted signs (exit signs, single guide signs, Interstate shields, mileage signs, etc.) is that Caltrans use wooden posts instead of metal and I think that's just cheapening it. Louisiana only uses wooden posts as a temporary measure and eventually replaces them with metal posts on a concrete base with a breakaway point on the base of the posts bolted on.

I, for one, prefer the wood posts as opposed to metal ones given the natural beauty of California.  Also, wood posts satisfy the "breakaway" requirement for sign posts without additional hardware needing to be installed to provide a specific breakaway point.

I have seen a hole drilled in the base of a wood signpost to enhance the breakaway characteristic. As far as geographic distribution, Wisconsin uses wood signposts extensively, and even Colorado uses them at times in lieu of the round, spin-in-the-wind steel signpost.

[agentsteel53]

Idaho frequently uses wood sign posts as well.

[Alps]

do freeway sign bridges have the breakaway requirement?  because if not, I'll bet most of California's are out of spec by virtue of being very, very old.

Everything within the clear zone (~30' for freeways, depending on conditions) must either be breakaway/frangible or positively protected by barrier (concrete or guiderail, typically).

[andy3175]

Both Routes 209 and 274 were relinquished to the city of San Diego in May 2001. Signs along both routes started to be removed by 2004, although it took years for most of the signs to be removed. The freeway overhead signs for both routes were removed (or covered up) in Dec 2012. I'm not sure why more than 10 years elapsed between the legislative decommissioning of these routes and the removal of most signs; there were improvements made to Balboa Ave including several new segments of landscaped median after the state transferred control to the city. Now the city streets that were Routes 209 and 274 are now just that: city streets maintained by the city of San Diego. There are still a few 209 and 274 signs in the field (just saw a couple yesterday) ... you just have to know where to look.

More information:

https://www.aaroads.com/california/ca-209.html
https://www.aaroads.com/california/ca-274.html

Regards,
Andy

I was in San Diego last Nov, and I still saw 274 shields on the Balboa Ave. exit off the 163. Have those been replaced? I know button copy in Caltrans Dist. 11 (San Diego) is getting rarer and rarer.

Yup, the SR 274 signs on SR 163 are now gone, as of December 2012.

Regards,
Andy

[pctech]

There are a few wooden signs still floating around Louisiana. LADODT hasn't replaced all of them, they usually are the "blue info" type signs along interstates. (food & gas choices at exits, rest area, etc.) I have to admit that it looks "cheap", not belonging on a freeway.

Mark

[agentsteel53]

do freeway sign bridges have the breakaway requirement?  because if not, I'll bet most of California's are out of spec by virtue of being very, very old.

Everything within the clear zone (~30' for freeways, depending on conditions) must either be breakaway/frangible or positively protected by barrier (concrete or guiderail, typically).

got it.  in California urban settings, everything that I can think of is positively protected.

does this count as positive protection? 

http://goo.gl/maps/RlqnK

this is a guard rail before a non-breakaway gantry, but it appears to me to not be particularly beefed up.  I can see someone plowing this one at typical grapevine speed and receiving some pretty severe damage from everything.

[CentralCAroadgeek]

In and around the Fresno area, there's several exits that use these MUTCD gore point signs instead of the regular California signs:

I may have seen similar gore point signs to these elsewhere in California, but the ones I saw around Fresno were reminded me most of other states' (such as Arizona).

EDIT: Here's a better example on Google Streetview.

[CentralCAroadgeek]

I'd hate to be resurrecting a thread that's been inactive for months, but another trip to Fresno today got me to notice something. Around the CA-41/CA-168/CA-180 interchange in Fresno, I noticed an APL sign put up on westbound 180. Here's a picture:


(Raised caps on the cardinal direction too!)