Traffic signal

[dfnva]

I wonder if Virginia is going to transition from using yellow signal housings, doors, and visors to black ones with the retroreflective backplates like Ohio does?  I think the black signal heads contrast well with the yellow retroreflective backplates.  I've seen, At one intersection on SR-648/Edsall Rd in Fairfax County, just west of I-395, black signal heads with retroreflective backplates were installed in a replacement project. Not sure if that was a fluke by a contractor or indicative of further changes in signal standards for VDOT.

I know the intersection you speak of; it's at Carolina Pl and the adjacent firehouse.  About a month back, there was an accident that knocked down one of the utility poles holding the old signals up.  Though they were put back up and suffered no real damage that I saw, that accident may have led to replacement. I have a gut feeling this was a county decision (in terms of design), as the new signals are similar to this set on VA-244/Columbia Pike at the Annandale firehouse, and I have yet to see such a setup at a routine intersection in Fairfax County.

(I do wish I had gotten a video of this, but for about a week after the replacement, the new signals were flashing green.  I chalk this up to someone forgetting to reprogram the controller.)

Yes, that's the intersection.  Virginia / VDOT, at one time, used red-painted signals for firehouses, some still exist around the Richmond suburbs and on US-1 just south of the Beltway in Fairfax County.  These were not painted red.  I seriously doubt that Fairfax County installed them as I don't believe the county has ever installed signals on a VDOT-maintained road. Interestingly, they also are the first Eagle Durasig signals that I've seen used in a permanent installation on a VDOT-maintained road in the Northern Virginia region in over 2 decades.

[roadfro]

As far as why they're popping up everywhere: MUTCD guidance is to use backplates if the speed limit or 85th percentile speed is 45 mph or higher. Several states have taken this as their standard.

That guidance is for the backplate itself, and is independent of whether reflective yellow border is applied to the backplate.

Yes, and I never stated otherwise.

Merely a clarification, as everything else mentioned in that post was referring to backplates with reflective borders.

[7/8]

I found some all-black signals (not including the actual lights ) in Exeter, ON today along Highway 4. The only other place I know that has these in Ontario is Richmond Hill (though I haven't seen those ones yet).

[jakeroot]

I found some all-black signals (not including the actual lights ) in Exeter, ON today along Highway 4. The only other place I know that has these in Ontario is Richmond Hill (though I haven't seen those ones yet).

http://i.imgur.com/MtfVTtE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SMDJm2n.jpg

All-black signals do seem to be exceptionally rare in Canada. The only places that I know of that use them exclusively today are Banff and Edmonton. Quebec and Winnipeg have both started using yellow strips around the outer edges (the latter for left turn signals, which are otherwise all black). Quebec does seem to be mostly all-black though.

[US 89]

I found some all-black signals (not including the actual lights ) in Exeter, ON today along Highway 4. The only other place I know that has these in Ontario is Richmond Hill (though I haven't seen those ones yet).

http://i.imgur.com/MtfVTtE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SMDJm2n.jpg

All-black signals do seem to be exceptionally rare in Canada. The only places that I know of that use them exclusively today are Banff and Edmonton. Quebec and Winnipeg have both started using yellow strips around the outer edges (the latter for left turn signals, which are otherwise all black). Quebec does seem to be mostly all-black though.

The all-yellow lights so commonly seen in Canada probably have better visibility in extreme Canadian blizzards.

[7/8]

I found some all-black signals (not including the actual lights ) in Exeter, ON today along Highway 4. The only other place I know that has these in Ontario is Richmond Hill (though I haven't seen those ones yet).

http://i.imgur.com/MtfVTtE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SMDJm2n.jpg

All-black signals do seem to be exceptionally rare in Canada. The only places that I know of that use them exclusively today are Banff and Edmonton. Quebec and Winnipeg have both started using yellow strips around the outer edges (the latter for left turn signals, which are otherwise all black). Quebec does seem to be mostly all-black though.

The all-yellow lights so commonly seen in Canada probably have better visibility in extreme Canadian blizzards.

I like the new standard in Waterloo Region (Ontario) of using black signal heads on yellow backplates, since I think it has the advantages of both colours.

Here's an example taken on King St E in Kitchener

[SignGeek101]

The only other place I know that has these in Ontario is Richmond Hill (though I haven't seen those ones yet).

There's a few in the Kingston downtown area:

https://goo.gl/maps/t3gyzXKtJsQ2

https://goo.gl/maps/7QBM9UXvwdA2

[jakeroot]

I found some all-black signals (not including the actual lights ) in Exeter, ON today along Highway 4. The only other place I know that has these in Ontario is Richmond Hill (though I haven't seen those ones yet).

http://i.imgur.com/MtfVTtE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SMDJm2n.jpg

All-black signals do seem to be exceptionally rare in Canada. The only places that I know of that use them exclusively today are Banff and Edmonton. Quebec and Winnipeg have both started using yellow strips around the outer edges (the latter for left turn signals, which are otherwise all black). Quebec does seem to be mostly all-black though.

The all-yellow lights so commonly seen in Canada probably have better visibility in extreme Canadian blizzards.

Perhaps in theory. But both of the places that I mentioned that still use all-black signals w/o yellow trim are in extremely snowy areas (Banff and Edmonton). There's also places that use yellow signals (at least yellow backplates) that have almost no snow at all: BC's Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island.

With that in mind, I don't think all-black signals are hard to see in snow. After all, snow is white.

Note that up until the late 90s, following a trial near Victoria, Canada's yellow back plates had no reflective trim as they do now. This means at night, they were impossible to see.

I like the new standard in Waterloo Region (Ontario) of using black signal heads on yellow backplates, since I think it has the advantages of both colours.

Occasional all-yellow signals show up in BC (a lot in Coquitlam). But for the most part, this is the only style I ever see in Vancouver/the rest of BC.

[HTM Duke]

Here's an odd one from Elgin, IL.  What do you do if you're on a one-way street that shifts over to a two-way street at an intersection where most traffic will leave off to the left?  This is what IDOT does, apparently.

https://goo.gl/maps/r4q6HaKsniL2

Apologies for bringing this post back up, but I found a near identical signal in Easton, MD while clinching MD-565.  Not MUTCD compliant though, as the thru arrow is at the bottom of the stack.  Aside: most of the signalized intersections on MD-565 through town only have one signal head per side.



I keep forgetting about these, but some of the signals in downtown Culpeper have a bit of an European flair to them.  Can't say I've seen this style of design anywhere else in Virginia.

I wonder if Virginia is going to transition from using yellow signal housings, doors, and visors to black ones with the retroreflective backplates like Ohio does?  I think the black signal heads contrast well with the yellow retroreflective backplates.  I've seen, At one intersection on SR-648/Edsall Rd in Fairfax County, just west of I-395, black signal heads with retroreflective backplates were installed in a replacement project. Not sure if that was a fluke by a contractor or indicative of further changes in signal standards for VDOT.

I know the intersection you speak of; it's at Carolina Pl and the adjacent firehouse.  About a month back, there was an accident that knocked down one of the utility poles holding the old signals up.  Though they were put back up and suffered no real damage that I saw, that accident may have led to replacement. I have a gut feeling this was a county decision (in terms of design), as the new signals are similar to this set on VA-244/Columbia Pike at the Annandale firehouse, and I have yet to see such a setup at a routine intersection in Fairfax County.

(I do wish I had gotten a video of this, but for about a week after the replacement, the new signals were flashing green.  I chalk this up to someone forgetting to reprogram the controller.)

Yes, that's the intersection.  Virginia / VDOT, at one time, used red-painted signals for firehouses, some still exist around the Richmond suburbs and on US-1 just south of the Beltway in Fairfax County.  These were not painted red.  I seriously doubt that Fairfax County installed them as I don't believe the county has ever installed signals on a VDOT-maintained road. Interestingly, they also are the first Eagle Durasig signals that I've seen used in a permanent installation on a VDOT-maintained road in the Northern Virginia region in over 2 decades.

My apologies for taking so long to respond.  Perhaps I phrased this wrong, but I was talking about who bore the financial responsibility for signal installation in specific instances.  In this case, these were put in solely for firehouse, not general traffic, so I'm led to think that the county would be the one to bear the costs.  As such, the county would also be able to specify what they wanted installed.  In a similar context, I would point out the intersection of VA-123 and the CIA complex, home to some of the last Auto LFE's in Fairax County.  VDOT would have replaced these by now (other signals along 123 have), but I'm again led to believe that it's not VDOT's responsibility to pay for it, but the federal government's.

[jakeroot]

I keep forgetting about these, but some of the signals in downtown Culpeper have a bit of an European flair to them.  Can't say I've seen this style of design anywhere else in Virginia.

Wow! Those are, by a mile, the most European-looking signals I've seen anywhere in the country. In particular, they seem very Dutch due to their overhead placement. I can't say I love the maximum-rounded (?) corners, but it's still pretty cool.

Bristol, PA has some signals with white borders, but that's the only other place I've seen anything similar.

[freebrickproductions]

I keep forgetting about these, but some of the signals in downtown Culpeper have a bit of an European flair to them.  Can't say I've seen this style of design anywhere else in Virginia.

Wow! Those are, by a mile, the most European-looking signals I've seen anywhere in the country. In particular, they seem very Dutch due to their overhead placement. I can't say I love the maximum-rounded (?) corners, but it's still pretty cool.

Bristol, PA has some signals with white borders, but that's the only other place I've seen anything similar.

New Hope, PA also has some signals with white borders at the one signalized intersection in town:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.364414,-74.9512573,3a,35.5y,257.33h,95.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sitxz9u-w27Je_V3pV9GrBg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I must say, I really like the look of white borders.

[plain]

Here's an odd one from Elgin, IL.  What do you do if you're on a one-way street that shifts over to a two-way street at an intersection where most traffic will leave off to the left?  This is what IDOT does, apparently.

https://goo.gl/maps/r4q6HaKsniL2

Apologies for bringing this post back up, but I found a near identical signal in Easton, MD while clinching MD-565.  Not MUTCD compliant though, as the thru arrow is at the bottom of the stack.  Aside: most of the signalized intersections on MD-565 through town only have one signal head per side.

Wow... that's even crazier than the Illinois example. ONE side mounted signal at that... I wonder how many fender benders occur because of that? They should have signals on both sides of the street

[riiga]

I keep forgetting about these, but some of the signals in downtown Culpeper have a bit of an European flair to them.  Can't say I've seen this style of design anywhere else in Virginia.

Wow, very nice find!

[jakeroot]

I keep forgetting about these, but some of the signals in downtown Culpeper have a bit of an European flair to them.  Can't say I've seen this style of design anywhere else in Virginia.

Wow, very nice find!

From the outside looking it, I'd imagine that the US must be baffling in terms of our signal standards. There's no placement standards (overhead or on the side, near or far, doesn't matter), signal heads can be just about any color (though I think yellow and black are the recommended colors), backplates need to be black, but the strip around edge can be any reflective color...things are a total mess compared to most other countries (except Canada, which seems to be at least as messy).

Can you think of any signalised intersections in Sweden where the signal placement, design, etc is totally different from what you're used to normally seeing?

[SignBridge]

Jakeroot, there are placement standards in the MUTCD. Section 4D.13, figure 4D-4 shows a diagram with the driver's so-called "cone of vision". At least one and preferably both reqd. signal heads must be within that cone. The Manual leaves it up to engineering judgment whether the signals are overhead or post/pole mounted or both. But it recommends overhead with one head over each traffic lane, and allows supplemental signal heads as needed per engineering judgment.

The Manual used to recommend yellow as the preferred head color, but I think they did away with any color rec. in the 2009 Manual. However backplates are required to be black.

As you point out, there is a lot of diversity in configuration in different regions of the country. But all signals must meet those basic MUTCD standards. 

[jakeroot]

As you point out, there is a lot of diversity in configuration in different regions of the country. But all signals must meet those basic MUTCD standards. 

And that's my point. I understand that there are basic standards, but there's a lot of variation, far more than most countries would permit. Looking at other countries, like Australia, Japan, South Africa, New Zealand...all of their signals look the same, country-wide. Not the case here.

[riiga]

Can you think of any signalised intersections in Sweden where the signal placement, design, etc is totally different from what you're used to normally seeing?

Off the top of my head, no. This kind of setup is somewhat uncommon though, but that's probably the only type of deviating setup I know of.

[SignBridge]

That's a pretty cool installation. And they even have Shell gas and 7-Eleven stores in Sweden. Wonder if the coffee is the same.  LOL

Jakeroot, most of the countries you named are smaller than the USA so it's easier to maintain standardization. US being as large as it is had different practices evolve in different regions. Like how the Southwestern states mostly follow the California configuration. And how NYC, NYS and Long Island counties mostly use diagonal spans, etc. New Jersey is standardized statewide, but they're a small state so it's easier to do there.

[roadfro]

From the outside looking it, I'd imagine that the US must be baffling in terms of our signal standards. There's no placement standards (overhead or on the side, near or far, doesn't matter), signal heads can be just about any color (though I think yellow and black are the recommended colors), backplates need to be black, but the strip around edge can be any reflective color...things are a total mess compared to most other countries (except Canada, which seems to be at least as messy).

MUTCD doesn't have any recommendation on signal head housing colors. It only requires the inside of the visors, louvers (if present), and the front side of backplates to have a dull black finish, in order to minimize light reflection and increase contrast of the signal indication. Furthermore, the reflective strip is only allowed to be yellow.

Longitudinal placement standards require the primary signal face to be a minimum of 40 feet beyond the stop line, and not more than 180 feet beyond the stop line without a supplemental near side signal head. Lateral placement of primary signal faces has to be within the 40° cone of vision originating 10 feet back from the stop line at the center of the approach.

[jakeroot]

I wasn't really trying to be overly precise with my points. I was just trying to point out how minimal our standards are compared to other industrialised nations (not necessarily similarly-sized ones).

the reflective strip is only allowed to be yellow.

Didn't realise this until just now. I thought it was required to be reflective. I've seen white used on several occasions, so I didn't rule out the possibility of white being allowed.

That said, white should be the color. Yellow is used because British Columbia uses yellow backplates, so naturally, they used a reflective yellow strip when they first tried out the idea (because it blended in with the border during the day, but stood out at night). We could just as easily use white. Makes more sense too, because signals are regulatory devices, not warning devices.

Jakeroot, most of the countries you named are smaller than the USA so it's easier to maintain standardization. US being as large as it is had different practices evolve in different regions. Like how the Southwestern states mostly follow the California configuration. And how NYC, NYS and Long Island counties mostly use diagonal spans, etc. New Jersey is standardized statewide, but they're a small state so it's easier to do there.

That's kind of true. Australia is quite a large country (world's 6th largest), yet it has totally standardised signal designs, placement, etc. There might be occasional one-off oddities, but for the most part, a 4-way signal looks the same in each state.

That said, it really shouldn't matter how large the country is, nor how things evolved over time. I'm not saying the MUTCD is this holy grail of a manual, and only it knows best. But the sheer number of recommendations ("should") vs requirements ("shall") is pretty remarkable. If something proves beneficial, why would it not become a requirement?

I also understand the idea of state freedoms. There are certain states that use their own manuals (*cough* California), some that use modifications of it...why is this allowed? Why doesn't each state use the same manual? Honestly, these concerns go far deeper than just the manual (laws dictate different meanings for red arrows state-to-state, for example).

[/rant]

[Aerobird]

I also understand the idea of state freedoms. There are certain states that use their own manuals (*cough* California), some that use modifications of it...why is this allowed? Why doesn't each state use the same manual? Honestly, these concerns go far deeper than just the manual (laws dictate different meanings for red arrows state-to-state, for example).

[/rant]

Because, without diving into political issues, the 'ideal state' (no pun intended) as seen by the US is "a group of free and independent states, that banded together under a federal goverenment", as opposed to "a federal government, that is divided into states". Therefore, where possible, Thou Shalts that come from On High are frowned at mightily.

[cl94]

As far as the black head/yellow backplate arrangement, that seems to be standard in Hamilton, ON as well

[jay8g]

Out in the sprawl of Vancouver, WA is what initially looks like a standard signalized T-intersection. However, looking around, there are signals for the fourth approach, ped signals to cross it, and, until recently, there were pushbuttons for that crossing and a doghouse signal for a protected left turn. Unlike a normal road that never got built situation, however, there is no gap in the sidewalk or driveway curb cut or anything other than the signal to show that a road was ever intended to go here.

[jakeroot]

Out in the sprawl of Vancouver, WA is what initially looks like a standard signalized T-intersection. However, looking around, there are signals for the fourth approach, ped signals to cross it, and, until recently, there were pushbuttons for that crossing and a doghouse signal for a protected left turn. Unlike a normal road that never got built situation, however, there is no gap in the sidewalk or driveway curb cut or anything other than the signal to show that a road was ever intended to go here.

Hahaha what the F? That's hilarious. I've heard of a mast arm being installed ahead of time (sometimes even the signals) but I've never seen the signals turned on and operational.

[UCFKnights]

Out in the sprawl of Vancouver, WA is what initially looks like a standard signalized T-intersection. However, looking around, there are signals for the fourth approach, ped signals to cross it, and, until recently, there were pushbuttons for that crossing and a doghouse signal for a protected left turn. Unlike a normal road that never got built situation, however, there is no gap in the sidewalk or driveway curb cut or anything other than the signal to show that a road was ever intended to go here.

Hahaha what the F? That's hilarious. I've heard of a mast arm being installed ahead of time (sometimes even the signals) but I've never seen the signals turned on and operational.

That is common around here (Orlando). Well, with usually with the stub built for the road (but sometimes not far enough back for sensors to be installed). Hell, on SR 50 they built multiple 4 way intersections with split phase for the side roads and dual left turn lanes for a shopping center that was never built. I think they initially had the signals covered with bags with them running, but they blew off and left them running for a few months before they covered them again. This repeated and they finally took down the signal heads...

I know when I was going to UCF, the main entrance to campus had old apartments across the street that were torn down, but the signal was left up with its own phase, activated every 3 minutes for a good 30 seconds facing a fence with no one ever there, and it was like this for over 5 years I believe before they finally built new apartments there. That area was always congested really bad as well, and they were wasting valuable time every cycle for nothing for YEARS.

In Gainesville this one never had the opposing mast arm installed, but its programmed as if it did. I don't even understand how this one happens. As you can see in the street view, its got the PPLT activated even though there is no straight movement. If someone goes in the right lane, they'll still get a red until the left turn movement finished, then the protected left ends, and it goes a green ball permitting a permissive left along with the right without stopping. Gainesville also has proactively replaced all the 5 head PPLTs with FYAs, but I guess they don't have it in there system as a permissive left, so it got skipped (the other PPLT on this intersection got replaced as part of that project).