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Author Topic: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?  (Read 63176 times)

Jmiles32

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #175 on: July 11, 2017, 07:39:08 PM »

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let alone anywhere north of Haymarket,

If this were the case, VDOT would not have been successful in widening 15 between 66 and 234 earlier this decade...

I'm aware of that. By Haymarket I meant the US-15/VA-234 intersection because nobody ever calls that area "Woolsey". Most locals, including myself, basically refer to anything north of the railroad tracks, west of Catharpin Road, and still in Prince William County, as Haymarket.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 07:47:28 PM by Jmiles32 »
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Jmiles32

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #176 on: July 11, 2017, 08:02:37 PM »

Transurban wouldn't do it by themselves...they didn't even fund the existing Beltway HO/T lanes fully by themselves...several hundred million dollars for the HO/T lane project came from VDOT.
Agreed that a consortium of private companies would likely have to undertake rebuilding the American Legion Bridge. If only the private companies pay for it, then likely the whole thing would be tolled. If VDOT and MDOT end up contributing to the project, then the main lanes should continue to be free while the private companies can toll the express lanes/widened part.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #177 on: July 11, 2017, 08:54:44 PM »

Transurban wouldn't do it by themselves...they didn't even fund the existing Beltway HO/T lanes fully by themselves...several hundred million dollars for the HO/T lane project came from VDOT.
Agreed that a consortium of private companies would likely have to undertake rebuilding the American Legion Bridge. If only the private companies pay for it, then likely the whole thing would be tolled. If VDOT and MDOT end up contributing to the project, then the main lanes should continue to be free while the private companies can toll the express lanes/widened part.

They would need to conduct a full NEPA EIS/location study process first to the point of having an FHWA approved Final EIS and Record of Decision.  That took about 8 years for the I-495 HOT Lanes project between I-95 and VA-193, which is about what it takes.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #178 on: July 11, 2017, 10:26:32 PM »

Transurban wouldn't do it by themselves...they didn't even fund the existing Beltway HO/T lanes fully by themselves...several hundred million dollars for the HO/T lane project came from VDOT.
Agreed that a consortium of private companies would likely have to undertake rebuilding the American Legion Bridge. If only the private companies pay for it, then likely the whole thing would be tolled. If VDOT and MDOT end up contributing to the project, then the main lanes should continue to be free while the private companies can toll the express lanes/widened part.

They would need to conduct a full NEPA EIS/location study process first to the point of having an FHWA approved Final EIS and Record of Decision.  That took about 8 years for the I-495 HOT Lanes project between I-95 and VA-193, which is about what it takes.

I seriously doubt that the Maryland General Assembly would give its consent to a Public-Private Transportation Act (PPTA) type of deal to have a private-sector firm be awarded a long-term concession for any highway project in  the state (the Maryland Department of Transportation had awarded a PPTA-type concession agreement to a consortium for the Purple Line light rail project, but that may not happen at all at this point, given legal challenges in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia).

There is no analog to Virginia's PPTA in Maryland, so I believe that's a non-starter.  Now Virginia might make a deal with Transurban to extend its toll lanes concession up  to the Virginia side of the American Legion Bridge, but I believe that is as far as Transurban will get.  Anything from the first expansion joint on the Virginia side north is up to Maryland.

Agree that a NEPA process will take (at a minimum) three to four years, and likely several more than that.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 10:29:12 PM by cpzilliacus »
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cpzilliacus

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davewiecking

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #180 on: July 11, 2017, 11:26:37 PM »

I could swear that shortly after Transurban started work on the 495 express lanes, I read (or heard on WTOP)  that they and VA had agreed to extend the work further north of the Dulles Toll Road, under the guise of the usual "the equipment is already onsite" line of reasoning. But nothing happened, and about a year ago I poked thru various online archives unsuccessfully trying to find any record of such. Does anyone else have any recollection of this?
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cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #181 on: July 12, 2017, 01:02:21 AM »

I could swear that shortly after Transurban started work on the 495 express lanes, I read (or heard on WTOP)  that they and VA had agreed to extend the work further north of the Dulles Toll Road, under the guise of the usual "the equipment is already onsite" line of reasoning. But nothing happened, and about a year ago I poked thru various online archives unsuccessfully trying to find any record of such. Does anyone else have any recollection of this?

All that happened was a fifth lane was added on the left side of the Inner Loop (northbound) side of I-495 from the merge point north of VA-267 to about  halfway between VA-193 and the George  Washington Memorial Parkway. Not really part of the  Transurban lanes, since that lane is open for anyone to use.
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davewiecking

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #182 on: July 12, 2017, 07:24:05 AM »

I could swear that shortly after Transurban started work on the 495 express lanes, I read (or heard on WTOP)  that they and VA had agreed to extend the work further north of the Dulles Toll Road, under the guise of the usual "the equipment is already onsite" line of reasoning. But nothing happened, and about a year ago I poked thru various online archives unsuccessfully trying to find any record of such. Does anyone else have any recollection of this?

All that happened was a fifth lane was added on the left side of the Inner Loop (northbound) side of I-495 from the merge point north of VA-267 to about  halfway between VA-193 and the George  Washington Memorial Parkway. Not really part of the  Transurban lanes, since that lane is open for anyone to use.

I've used the extra shoulder lane on occasion (probably not as a freebie, but as a continuation of the Express lanes), but AFAIK the decision to convert the shoulder was made after the express lanes had been operational for awhile, and that VDOT managed the work.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #183 on: July 12, 2017, 12:48:34 PM »

I could swear that shortly after Transurban started work on the 495 express lanes, I read (or heard on WTOP)  that they and VA had agreed to extend the work further north of the Dulles Toll Road, under the guise of the usual "the equipment is already onsite" line of reasoning. But nothing happened, and about a year ago I poked thru various online archives unsuccessfully trying to find any record of such. Does anyone else have any recollection of this?
All that happened was a fifth lane was added on the left side of the Inner Loop (northbound) side of I-495 from the merge point north of VA-267 to about  halfway between VA-193 and the George  Washington Memorial Parkway. Not really part of the  Transurban lanes, since that lane is open for anyone to use.
I've used the extra shoulder lane on occasion (probably not as a freebie, but as a continuation of the Express lanes), but AFAIK the decision to convert the shoulder was made after the express lanes had been operational for awhile, and that VDOT managed the work.

The left lane was extended 1.7 miles.  I find it to be a definitely helpful extended transition from the end of HOT lanes to the general purpose lanes.
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Scott M. Savage
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cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #184 on: July 12, 2017, 01:28:24 PM »

The left lane was extended 1.7 miles.  I find it to be a definitely helpful extended transition from the end of HOT lanes to the general purpose lanes.

Did not solve the problem, which is inadequate capacity at the bridge itself.

For quite a few years, Maryland and Montgomery County elected officials have cast about for "alternatives" to a widening of the American Legion Bridge, including re-striping of the lanes on the bridge to add more capacity (unworkable and unsafe); an extension of the proposed Purple Line light rail from downtown Bethesda  to Tysons Corner (would face intense and well-funded NIMBY-type opposition on the Montgomery County side and probably on the Fairfax County side too); and well-worn talk about Montgomery County's land use plans and how they places an emphasis on transit ridership generally and Metro ridership in particular (the people that live in Montgomery County and work in Fairfax County or Loudoun County presumably did not get the memo).
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #185 on: July 12, 2017, 03:29:32 PM »

The left lane was extended 1.7 miles.  I find it to be a definitely helpful extended transition from the end of HOT lanes to the general purpose lanes.
Did not solve the problem, which is inadequate capacity at the bridge itself.
For quite a few years, Maryland and Montgomery County elected officials have cast about for "alternatives" to a widening of the American Legion Bridge, including re-striping of the lanes on the bridge to add more capacity (unworkable and unsafe); an extension of the proposed Purple Line light rail from downtown Bethesda  to Tysons Corner (would face intense and well-funded NIMBY-type opposition on the Montgomery County side and probably on the Fairfax County side too); and well-worn talk about Montgomery County's land use plans and how they places an emphasis on transit ridership generally and Metro ridership in particular (the people that live in Montgomery County and work in Fairfax County or Loudoun County presumably did not get the memo).

Extending the current 12 lane design to I-270 would be a massive improvement.  That would include upgrading the VA-267 interchange which was only partly upgraded in the HOT Lanes project, likely because it was unknown as to what design a northerly extension would have (either 5 lanes each way or 6 lanes each way, the latter would call for a major upgrade of the VA-267 interchange).
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Scott M. Savage
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Mapmikey

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #186 on: July 14, 2017, 01:10:02 PM »

I could swear that shortly after Transurban started work on the 495 express lanes, I read (or heard on WTOP)  that they and VA had agreed to extend the work further north of the Dulles Toll Road, under the guise of the usual "the equipment is already onsite" line of reasoning. But nothing happened, and about a year ago I poked thru various online archives unsuccessfully trying to find any record of such. Does anyone else have any recollection of this?

I also remember something along these lines but all I can find is the 2007 decision to not extend the HOT lanes all the way to VA 193 as was originally intended.

See pdf pg. 15 at http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Projects/Northern_Virginia/asset_upload_file307_72985.pdf which also details changes that were made in the design at several other interchanges...

My vague recollection at the time of construction is that Fluor offered to go ahead and extend them anyway and was turned down by VDOT...
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cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #187 on: July 18, 2017, 03:50:05 PM »

WTOP Radio: Montgomery Co. Council passes resolution opposing 2nd Potomac bridge

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Tuesday’s vote on a resolution amounts to a statement by the nine council members, but it is not tied to any legislation and is not legally binding.

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Councilmember Craig Rice, who previously served in the Maryland House of Delegates, said his position has not changed since coming to the council “There is not any benefit for the upcounty for having a second Potomac River crossing.”

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Mark Elrich, an at-large council member running for county executive, said building a new bridge would not be a “game changer” and agreed with Rice that a new crossing would do little for Maryland. “It would be a bridge that would wind up being built by Maryland, and the most immediate beneficiaries would not be in Maryland, they would be in Virginia.”
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