AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?  (Read 77761 times)

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #200 on: November 13, 2019, 04:02:52 PM »

My complaints about Maryland not adding capacity for a Washington Bypass may be partly resolved.  While this won't impact I-95 traffic that wants to bypass Washington, it would be a major improvement for the bypass segment of VA I-95/I-495/MD I-270/I-70 and US-15 to PA.
If Maryland can manage to straighten out some of their 495 stretch between 95 and 270, that may help them reduce capacity on its own.  Being that the road was built that way decades ago, probably to weave around areas they couldn't impact, even adding a lane or two in that stretch may help some, but those curves are going to be a huge burden to overcome.
The problematic I-495 curves are east of MD-355 Rockville Pike, thru Rock Creek Park. 

Not the section between VA and I-270 Spur.  The one curve that looks sharp on a map, south of MD-190 River Road, the long horizontal curve is about 3.0 degrees, which is adequate for 70 mph.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Rothman

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6211
  • Last Login: Today at 05:23:36 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #201 on: November 13, 2019, 11:14:53 PM »

Mormon Temple sits on a hill, so it isn't really the issue as much as the terrain is.
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

1995hoo

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 11771
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Fairfax County, Virginia
  • Last Login: Today at 05:45:31 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #202 on: November 14, 2019, 08:49:15 AM »

Apparently when the Beltway first opened, trucks weren’t allowed on that segment, though eventually that changed due in part to the problems it caused for local neighborhoods when truckers would drive through looking for “the other end of the Beltway.”
Logged
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jeffandnicole

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 11495
  • Age: 45
  • Location: South Jersey
  • Last Login: Today at 12:13:44 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #203 on: November 14, 2019, 10:14:26 AM »

My complaints about Maryland not adding capacity for a Washington Bypass may be partly resolved.  While this won't impact I-95 traffic that wants to bypass Washington, it would be a major improvement for the bypass segment of VA I-95/I-495/MD I-270/I-70 and US-15 to PA.
If Maryland can manage to straighten out some of their 495 stretch between 95 and 270, that may help them reduce capacity on its own.  Being that the road was built that way decades ago, probably to weave around areas they couldn't impact, even adding a lane or two in that stretch may help some, but those curves are going to be a huge burden to overcome.
The problematic I-495 curves are east of MD-355 Rockville Pike, thru Rock Creek Park. 

Not the section between VA and I-270 Spur.  The one curve that looks sharp on a map, south of MD-190 River Road, the long horizontal curve is about 3.0 degrees, which is adequate for 70 mph.

I was kinda slightly working off a comment you had made regarding a Washington bypass:

My complaints about Maryland not adding capacity for a Washington Bypass may be partly resolved.  While this won't impact I-95 traffic that wants to bypass Washington, it would be a major improvement for the bypass segment of VA I-95/I-495/MD I-270/I-70 and US-15 to PA.

While I think you were talking about a secondary ring around DC, VA and MD have been doing quite a bit of work to maintain a single beltway, knowing that a 2nd beltway is probably never going to happen.

And based on that, with what VA has already done and with this current development south of 270 and the bridge, the only capacity issue west of mainline I-95 will be the stretch between 270 and 95.  No doubt they can squeeze in an additional lane or two in many areas, but the curvature of the roadway is problematic.  The worst areas to work in will be where the roadway goes right into the backyards of the homes here ( https://goo.gl/maps/6ZoobfHCEBidBYtZ9 ) and here ( https://goo.gl/maps/3n2bKzBZNH2UAMD78 ) on both sides of the highway.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #204 on: November 14, 2019, 01:45:53 PM »

My complaints about Maryland not adding capacity for a Washington Bypass may be partly resolved.  While this won't impact I-95 traffic that wants to bypass Washington, it would be a major improvement for the bypass segment of VA I-95/I-495/MD I-270/I-70 and US-15 to PA.
While I think you were talking about a secondary ring around DC, VA and MD have been doing quite a bit of work to maintain a single beltway, knowing that a 2nd beltway is probably never going to happen.
In that sentence I was thinking of a "Washington bypass" in a general sense in that I-495 itself bypasses D.C.

It is not a good historical policy to have to expand I-495 into a "super freeway" to make up for the lack of an outer beltway, whereby I-495 would stay at a normal width of 8 lanes and the outer beltway would be at least 6 lanes wide.

Having both beltways would enable one of them to intercept/distribute regional traffic farther out (as near Dumfries, Centerville, Leesburg, Rockville, Laurel, Bowie, etc.) on the radial freeways rather than all that traffic have to utilize the radial freeways all the way in to the I-495 beltway.

With no outer bypass in sight, it certainly has been helpful to rebuild I-495 to 12 lanes between I-395/I-95 and VA-193, and will be helpful to extend that rebuild to I-270 Spur.

And based on that, with what VA has already done and with this current development south of 270 and the bridge, the only capacity issue west of mainline I-95 will be the stretch between 270 and 95.  No doubt they can squeeze in an additional lane or two in many areas, but the curvature of the roadway is problematic.  The worst areas to work in will be where the roadway goes right into the backyards of the homes here ( https://goo.gl/maps/6ZoobfHCEBidBYtZ9 ) and here ( https://goo.gl/maps/3n2bKzBZNH2UAMD78 ) on both sides of the highway.
That is on the part of I-495 that is east of I-270 Spur, where I said there would be major problems in expanding the highway to 12 lanes.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5062
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:04:41 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #205 on: November 14, 2019, 04:44:18 PM »

With no outer bypass in sight, it certainly has been helpful to rebuild I-495 to 12 lanes between I-395/I-95 and VA-193, and will be helpful to extend that rebuild to I-270 Spur.
Agreed, and they should do the same on I-95 between DC and Fredericksburg with a local / thru (3+3 each way) setup plus Transurban's privatized toll lanes running the middle. Fredericksburg is a good start with the current 3+3 toll free lanes each way project, now they need to go at least 30 more miles northward.

That would be certainly helpful with no outer bypass in sight.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #206 on: November 14, 2019, 04:57:02 PM »

With no outer bypass in sight, it certainly has been helpful to rebuild I-495 to 12 lanes between I-395/I-95 and VA-193, and will be helpful to extend that rebuild to I-270 Spur.
Agreed, and they should do the same on I-95 between DC and Fredericksburg with a local / thru (3+3 each way) setup plus Transurban's privatized toll lanes running the middle. Fredericksburg is a good start with the current 3+3 toll free lanes each way project, now they need to go at least 30 more miles northward.  That would be certainly helpful with no outer bypass in sight.
No, Maryland needs to step up and start planning a new north-south freeway that would bypass Washington on the I-95 corridor. 

No more fantastically expensive super-freeways built by Virginia because of Maryland's recalcitrance and lack of planning.

Besides, I-95 is already at the full feasible buildout north of Woodbridge, given right-of-way constraints.

Virginia has already had to spend at least $6 billion (and that figure includes the private sector funds that the highway users will pay for in tolls) in improvements to I-95 and I-495 that would have been greatly reduced if the above was built.
 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 05:03:00 PM by Beltway »
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5062
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:04:41 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #207 on: November 14, 2019, 05:02:13 PM »

With no outer bypass in sight, it certainly has been helpful to rebuild I-495 to 12 lanes between I-395/I-95 and VA-193, and will be helpful to extend that rebuild to I-270 Spur.
Agreed, and they should do the same on I-95 between DC and Fredericksburg with a local / thru (3+3 each way) setup plus Transurban's privatized toll lanes running the middle. Fredericksburg is a good start with the current 3+3 toll free lanes each way project, now they need to go at least 30 more miles northward.  That would be certainly helpful with no outer bypass in sight.
No, Maryland needs to step up and start planning a new north-south freeway that would bypass Washington on the I-95 corridor. 

No more fantastically expensive super-freeways built because of Maryland's recalcitrance.

Besides, I-95 is already at the full feasible buildout north of Woodbridge, given right-of-way constraints.

Virginia has already had to spend at least $5 billion (and that includes the private sector funds that the highway users will pay for in tolls) in improvements to I-95 and I-495 that would have been greatly reduced if the above was built.
 
You say all this, but then you show major support for the massive expansion of I-495. Is it because I-95 already has HO/T lanes, therefore no further expansion needed? You get that 70 mph trip already, so it's built out enough.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #208 on: November 14, 2019, 05:13:06 PM »

Maryland needs to step up and start planning a new north-south freeway that would bypass Washington on the I-95 corridor. 
[…]
You say all this, but then you show major support for the massive expansion of I-495. Is it because I-95 already has HO/T lanes, therefore no further expansion needed? You get that 70 mph trip already, so it's built out enough.
Not sure about "major support," as in Post #204 I basically lamented the fact that the I-495 expansion was a result of not having an outer beltway.   

Besides I-495 HOT Lanes was opened back in 2012, so it is just a fact of life at this point.  And we're only looking at 4 miles in each state to build the remainder up to I-270 Spur.

Plus I do question the feasibility of widening MD I-495 between I-270 and I-95, especially the segment in Rock Creek Park.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5062
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:04:41 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #209 on: November 14, 2019, 05:16:08 PM »

Not sure about "major support," as in Post #204 I basically lamented the fact that the I-495 expansion was a result of not having an outer beltway.
What if VDOT introduced a project (highly unlikely due to the current political climate and the wide open message saying they're not expanding I-95, and Transurban's "compensation events") to widen I-95 to a 3+3 setup between DC and Fredericksburg?

What's your position then?

Just curious.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #210 on: November 14, 2019, 05:22:56 PM »

Not sure about "major support," as in Post #204 I basically lamented the fact that the I-495 expansion was a result of not having an outer beltway.
What if VDOT introduced a project (highly unlikely due to the current political climate and the wide open message saying they're not expanding I-95, and Transurban's "compensation events") to widen I-95 to a 3+3 setup between DC and Fredericksburg?
What's your position then?  Just curious.

Would be unaffordable, and therefore no such project (a 12-lane highway between Fredericksburg and the 14th Street Bridge) would be introduced.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5062
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:04:41 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #211 on: November 14, 2019, 05:32:55 PM »

Not sure about "major support," as in Post #204 I basically lamented the fact that the I-495 expansion was a result of not having an outer beltway.
What if VDOT introduced a project (highly unlikely due to the current political climate and the wide open message saying they're not expanding I-95, and Transurban's "compensation events") to widen I-95 to a 3+3 setup between DC and Fredericksburg?
What's your position then?  Just curious.

Would be unaffordable, and therefore no such project (a 12-lane highway between Fredericksburg and the 14th Street Bridge) would be introduced.
More so referring to I-495, and along I-495 to the Woodrow Wilson Bridge.

A project with this layout was proposed years back in VTrans recommendations. It's not an unheard of proposal.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #212 on: November 14, 2019, 09:00:44 PM »

More so referring to I-495, and along I-495 to the Woodrow Wilson Bridge.
A project with this layout was proposed years back in VTrans recommendations. It's not an unheard of proposal.
Older VTrans long-range plans proposed all sorts of things back then, and we have had enormous increases in construction costs over the last 15 years or so.

The 7.5 mile WWB Project built 5 lanes each way and one auxiliary lane each way in some places including between US-1 and I-295.   And no I do not support eliminating full shoulders to provide another lane.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

froggie

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 11317
  • Location: Greensboro, VT
  • Last Login: Today at 06:11:56 PM
    • Froggie's Place
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #213 on: November 15, 2019, 07:28:41 AM »

Virginia has already had to spend at least $6 billion (and that figure includes the private sector funds that the highway users will pay for in tolls) in improvements to I-95 and I-495 that would have been greatly reduced if the above was built.

Especially given Tysons and Alexandria growth, I'm not convinced that VDOT would have avoided spending 10-digits on 95 and 495 even if we had an outer beltway.  The vast bulk of traffic impacting both routes is local.  All an outer beltway would have done would have been to provided the through traffic with an alternative route (opening up capacity on both routes which, again given already existing growth, would have likely filled back up again).  And any such outer beltway would have provided extreme pressure to develop the land along it, especially in Virginia.
Logged

jeffandnicole

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 11495
  • Age: 45
  • Location: South Jersey
  • Last Login: Today at 12:13:44 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #214 on: November 15, 2019, 08:20:21 AM »

Chicken-Egg scenario here, with the Chicken being Tysons Corner, Alexandria, etc.  Viriginia allowed many of the DC 'suburbs' to build up.  That created a huge influx in businesses and companies making that area their home, which caused many people to move into the area, which pushed a great demand on housing costs, which caused developers to build further west and south, which caused people to move further west and south, which caused the roads to congest, which caused for Viriginia to find a way to widen the roads.

If an outer beltway were to have been built, that would've needed to have been done before all this growth occurred.  Which also would've been during a time when people didn't see the need for such a beltway.  The best VA did was build the Fairfax County Parkway.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #215 on: November 15, 2019, 05:05:47 PM »

Virginia has already had to spend at least $6 billion (and that figure includes the private sector funds that the highway users will pay for in tolls) in improvements to I-95 and I-495 that would have been greatly reduced if the above was built.
Especially given Tysons and Alexandria growth, I'm not convinced that VDOT would have avoided spending 10-digits
10 digits is at minimum $1 billion.  Not a difficult sum to spend nowadays.

on 95 and 495 even if we had an outer beltway.  The vast bulk of traffic impacting both routes is local.  All an outer beltway would have done would have been to provided the through traffic with an alternative route (opening up capacity on both routes which, again given already existing growth, would have likely filled back up again).
So instead the existing routes get crushed with traffic, including the radial freeway segments between the unbuilt outer beltway and the existing beltway, and part of the "through traffic" is actually regional in the sense of for one example of many, Dumfries to Rockville, applying pressure for the inner routes to become "super freeways" which are also super-expensive to build.

And any such outer beltway would have provided extreme pressure to develop the land along it, especially in Virginia.
Widely spaced exits as I have suggested before, at least 5 mile average spacing if not 8 to 10.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5062
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:04:41 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #216 on: November 15, 2019, 06:07:52 PM »

^ You continuously seem to believe that the -majority- of traffic congestion is caused by thru traffic, and that a bypass would eliminate the need for more lanes, whether be HO/T or GP, on I-95 and I-495, whether it be the proposed lanes, the needed ones VDOT refuses to study, or the ones already built, and that congestion would be significantly less.

You’re completely missing the fact that the -vast majority- of traffic is either local, or long-distance traffic originating in Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland coming in from I-95 from the south and north, I-270, I-66, the BW Pkwy, and other routes that lead in/out, and that an outer bypass wouldn’t divert much traffic, I’d estimate 20,000 - 30,000 AADT at most taken off the I-495 system, and that’s minuscule compared to the amount of traffic either side of the beltway has.

The completed & proposed improvements with the addition of HO/T lanes on the beltway, the need for more GP lanes and thru lanes south of I-495 would still be needed regardless of this bypass existing or not.

I agree, a bypass is needed for thru traffic. But a bypass would not eliminate the need for a megafreeway on I-95 from Fredericksburg northward, and beltway HO/T lanes. The traffic counts are well over 200,000 in the Northern Virginia area, and over 130,000 north of Fredericksburg and would remain such with or without a bypass.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 06:11:14 PM by sprjus4 »
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #217 on: November 15, 2019, 07:25:45 PM »

^ You continuously seem to believe that the -majority- of traffic congestion is caused by thru traffic, and that a bypass would eliminate the need for more lanes, whether be HO/T or GP, on I-95 and I-495, whether it be the proposed lanes, the needed ones VDOT refuses to study, or the ones already built, and that congestion would be significantly less.
I'm not sure who you are pointing at, but 1) I have not said that the need for widening would be eliminated, 2) that any "majority" of traffic is "thru," 3) but I am saying that part of the traffic is "regional" in the sense of not really local and not really thru; between those two definitions.

You’re completely missing the fact that the -vast majority- of traffic is either local, or long-distance traffic originating in Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland coming in from I-95 from the south and north, I-270, I-66, the BW Pkwy, and other routes that lead in/out, and that an outer bypass wouldn’t divert much traffic, I’d estimate 20,000 - 30,000 AADT at most taken off the I-495 system, and that’s minuscule compared to the amount of traffic either side of the beltway has.
Again, see what I said about "regional" traffic, one example of dozens, is Dumfries-Rockville which could be handled on one bypass route instead of adding to inner routings using I-95, I-495 and I-270.   (I mentioned the whole "ring" of Dumfries, Manassas, Centreville, Reston, Leesburg, Rockville, Gaithersburg, Laurel, Bowie, Waldorf, etc.).

Before you estimate that 20,000 to 30,000, we need official traffic engineering studies to estimate the  volumes, and for the last 30+ years Maryland has refused to participate in any such EIS/location study.

I agree, a bypass is needed for thru traffic. But a bypass would not eliminate the need for a megafreeway on I-95 from Fredericksburg northward, and beltway HO/T lanes. The traffic counts are well over 200,000 in the Northern Virginia area, and over 130,000 north of Fredericksburg and would remain such with or without a bypass.
Define "megafreeway".  If you mean like the recently widened 35 miles of NJTP with 12 lanes on 4 separate roadways, look at how they financed it (tolls), look at how long it was delayed before they got to it (40 years), and look at how the NJTP has been financed (tolls) since its inception in 1951.

I am not opposed to tolling all lanes of I-95 between I-295 and I-495.
 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 07:32:32 PM by Beltway »
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

vdeane

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 11393
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Latham, NY
  • Last Login: November 27, 2020, 08:47:16 PM
    • New York State Roads
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #218 on: November 15, 2019, 10:20:19 PM »

You’re completely missing the fact that the -vast majority- of traffic is either local, or long-distance traffic originating in Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland coming in from I-95 from the south and north, I-270, I-66, the BW Pkwy, and other routes that lead in/out, and that an outer bypass wouldn’t divert much traffic, I’d estimate 20,000 - 30,000 AADT at most taken off the I-495 system, and that’s minuscule compared to the amount of traffic either side of the beltway has.
I imagine this speaks to why VA would have a lot more interest than MD in a bypass route.  The worst traffic is I-95 between DC and Richmond.  As far as MD is concerned, it's not their problem.  A bypass does a lot more for VA than MD.
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #219 on: November 15, 2019, 10:42:45 PM »

I imagine this speaks to why VA would have a lot more interest than MD in a bypass route.  The worst traffic is I-95 between DC and Richmond.  As far as MD is concerned, it's not their problem.  A bypass does a lot more for VA than MD.
As I have said before, only one north-south freeway south of I-495 until I-295.

Maryland has I-95 and the NPS-built B-W Parkway, but traffic isn't much better between Washington and Baltimore.

It is a problem for Maryland because US-301 passes thru southern Maryland, and is horribly congested as a result.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

vdeane

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 11393
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Latham, NY
  • Last Login: November 27, 2020, 08:47:16 PM
    • New York State Roads
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #220 on: November 15, 2019, 11:11:23 PM »

In my experience, Richmond-DC has been worse than DC-Baltimore.  I've experienced severe congestion on Richmond-DC 2/3 of the time, and that manifests as very long stretches of stop and go, often with rather prolonged stopping.  Baltimore-DC, by contrast, I've only had issue 1/2 the time, and that time was more intermittent and in heavy rain, and at least one location had a severe crash.

I've also encountered stop and go heading north out of Baltimore - not coincidentally, that's one place MD is working to build toll lanes.
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #221 on: November 15, 2019, 11:38:58 PM »

In my experience, Richmond-DC has been worse than DC-Baltimore.  I've experienced severe congestion on Richmond-DC 2/3 of the time,
I thought you said before that you had only made 3 such trips.  I rarely experience major congestion on the route other than maybe 5 or 10 minutes of delay occasionally and that is without using the HOT lanes.

and that manifests as very long stretches of stop and go, often with rather prolonged stopping.  Baltimore-DC, by contrast, I've only had issue 1/2 the time, and that time was more intermittent and in heavy rain, and at least one location had a severe crash.
I don't use that much but when I am in the area I hear the traffic reports on WMAL and WTOP, and there is plenty of peak period congestion on I-95 between I-495 and I-695.

Again, Maryland can't just stick their head in the sand and refuse to do their part to provide another north-south freeway between Baltimore and central Virginia.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5062
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:04:41 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #222 on: November 16, 2019, 12:47:35 AM »

I thought you said before that you had only made 3 such trips.  I rarely experience major congestion on the route other than maybe 5 or 10 minutes of delay occasionally and that is without using the HOT lanes.
Have you attempted using the general purpose lanes during peak hours in the direction of the HO/T lanes, say on any afternoon, notably Friday, southbound? Or even southbound on a Sunday where the peak flow is south yet the HO/T lanes are pointed northbound.

Your “5 or 10 minutes” must have been during the week in the opposite direction of the HO/T flow.

I can tell you from personal experience, it’s at least 30 minutes, if not more of delay between I-495 and the southern end of the HO/T lanes, and it’s no better south of there. Fredericksburg -> Richmond is hit or miss. Somedays it’s easy to flow 75 mph, other times it’s free flow -> stop and -> free flow -> stop and go in the middle of nowhere. VA-30 to I-295 is a bottleneck as well.

Said it before, I’ll say it again - there needs to be at least 8 general purpose lanes between I-295 and Fredericksburg, and at least 10 general purpose lanes north of Fredericksburg to the Springfield Interchange. Congestion isn’t going anywhere, even if these bypasses get built.

How would these 90 mile outer bypasses get funded? I’d imagine by tolls of at least $15 - $20 or more for a full trip considering the heavy wetlands impacts, a Potomac River bridge crossing, and having at least 6 lanes (3 each way), 8 lanes (4 each way) in areas where needed, which that cost alone would deter a percentage of drivers, especially these large amount of “regional” trips you cite that exist. It could also deter local trips that should rather benefit from a bypass, especially for high costs, again continuing to add congestion to already choked I-95, US-301, I-495, I-270.

Unless VDOT and Maryland can develop some funding plan to get an at least $6 billion freeway built with low or no tolls, that’s what I see as the reality if anything is built / studied. And that’s just for one eastern or western bypass. Now try getting both the eastern and western built and creating a funding plan to buy down the needed high toll rates.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 12:53:18 AM by sprjus4 »
Logged

jeffandnicole

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 11495
  • Age: 45
  • Location: South Jersey
  • Last Login: Today at 12:13:44 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #223 on: November 16, 2019, 09:14:46 AM »

A new North South highway between Baltimore and Richmond should be discussed in the Fictional Highway forum, because it will never happen.

Beltway...I'd defer to Vdeane and sprjus here. I dont know how you could believe there's just minor congestion this area.  If it was that quiet, it wouldn't have justified all the rebuilding and HOT lanes that were done.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #224 on: November 16, 2019, 12:26:54 PM »

A new North South highway between Baltimore and Richmond should be discussed in the Fictional Highway forum, because it will never happen.
So you suggest that "New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?" be moved to the Fictional Highway forum?

This has been the subject of a number of official studies over the years and as recently as the early 2000s, plus the new 4-lane US-301 bridge has been approved and will start construction in the next year or so, and unlike the current bridge it could support a freeway route between I-95 at Carmel Church and I-97 at Dorrs Corner.

I vote to keep it here.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.