Poor Sign Placement

[epzik8]

This one might be a candidate. U.S. Route 1 north near Kennett Square, Pennsylvania.

[kalvado]

slightly different aspect of poor placement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7618223,-73.9496483,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st1cljuVco-WgUDNh4svGVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
"right lane ends in 1 mile", ok.
if you look carefully, you can see a BGS a little bit down the road, maybe 0.1 mile. Here is a closer look:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7604682,-73.9469055,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQd4WkZ64IV59-UsEFFfgsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Exit 25 in 1 mile.
Which lane would you be using to get off the highway at that exit?

[bzakharin]

slightly different aspect of poor placement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7618223,-73.9496483,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st1cljuVco-WgUDNh4svGVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
"right lane ends in 1 mile", ok.
if you look carefully, you can see a BGS a little bit down the road, maybe 0.1 mile. Here is a closer look:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7604682,-73.9469055,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQd4WkZ64IV59-UsEFFfgsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Exit 25 in 1 mile.
Which lane would you be using to get off the highway at that exit?

Here's how the NJ Turnpike handles a similar situation:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9399608,-74.9423118,3a,75y,260.73h,82.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa-gGh8S8rQD8l-37SnFnAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
That sign is just under 1 mile to where the right lane ends and about 0.3 miles after the One mile advance for the exit. It's still confusing, though, because it doesn't really tell you what happens to the right lane. Also, I've seen "Thru Traffic Keep Left" in places where there isn't a lane reduction, but just a 2-lane exit. I don't know how I would solve this other than just exit the right lane instead of ending it.

[kalvado]

slightly different aspect of poor placement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7618223,-73.9496483,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st1cljuVco-WgUDNh4svGVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
"right lane ends in 1 mile", ok.
if you look carefully, you can see a BGS a little bit down the road, maybe 0.1 mile. Here is a closer look:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7604682,-73.9469055,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQd4WkZ64IV59-UsEFFfgsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Exit 25 in 1 mile.
Which lane would you be using to get off the highway at that exit?

Here's how the NJ Turnpike handles a similar situation:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9399608,-74.9423118,3a,75y,260.73h,82.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa-gGh8S8rQD8l-37SnFnAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
That sign is just under 1 mile to where the right lane ends and about 0.3 miles after the One mile advance for the exit. It's still confusing, though, because it doesn't really tell you what happens to the right lane. Also, I've seen "Thru Traffic Keep Left" in places where there isn't a lane reduction, but just a 2-lane exit. I don't know how I would solve this other than just exit the right lane instead of ending it.

In Thruway case someone did read that exit-only lanes are bad. So what they did, they have a 3-lane+4th exit lane until the gore point, and third travel lane ends 30 feet after gore point. Exit-only lane would be much less messy and quite a bit cheaper. But that is not what the book says.

Placing "lane end 1 mile" sign before "exit 1 mile" sign complicates things even further. Both are technically correct, though

[Mr. Matté]

Alanland warning signs:

[freebrickproductions]

Alanland warning signs:

Now I have to wonder how you stop and yield...

[vdeane]

The same as a normal stop.  The "yield" is implicit, as you're not supposed to go from a stop until it's safe to do so and you have right of way.  The difference between the two signs is that yield doesn't require a full stop before resuming, and stop does.  Other than that, the rules are the same.

[kalvado]

The same as a normal stop.  The "yield" is implicit, as you're not supposed to go from a stop until it's safe to do so and you have right of way.  The difference between the two signs is that yield doesn't require a full stop before resuming, and stop does.  Other than that, the rules are the same.

There has to be a bit more fine print - there is a (well-defined) 4-way stop routine, but I never heard about 4-way yield. Roundabouts are sort of close, but scope of each yield sign does not include interaction with other yields... 

[freebrickproductions]

The same as a normal stop.  The "yield" is implicit, as you're not supposed to go from a stop until it's safe to do so and you have right of way.  The difference between the two signs is that yield doesn't require a full stop before resuming, and stop does.  Other than that, the rules are the same.

There has to be a bit more fine print - there is a (well-defined) 4-way stop routine, but I never heard about 4-way yield. Roundabouts are sort of close, but scope of each yield sign does not include interaction with other yields... 

IIRC, at a 4-way yield, you yield to anyone who arrives at the intersection before you, and to the person on the right, if two people arrive at the same time.

[amroad17]

Alanland warning signs:

Alanland--the corpse just opened its eyes! 

[kalvado]

IIRC, at a 4-way yield, you yield to anyone who arrives at the intersection before you, and to the person on the right, if two people arrive at the same time.

Do you have any locations in mind with 4-way yield actually deployed? I don't think I have ever seen that..

[roadman65]

I like the one in Wall Township, NJ where the points along I-195 are mentioned real well, but the sign is placed between the SB NJ 34 ramp and the merge from NJ 34 SB to I-195 WB.  Those entering the freeway from NJ 34 SB cannot even see it as generally signs or that specific nature are usually post interchange. 

Ditto in Somerville, NJ on US 22 W Bound as a mileage sign is placed within the US 202 & 206 interchange and not all entering the road can see it either.

Then here in Orlando, a new apartment complex planted trees along Palm Parkway blocking the view of a guide sign directing motorists to Sea World and Discovery Cove that was out in the open for years.

[vdeane]

I'm not sure we need locations for 4-way yields (though aren't there some in Europe?)... we've already established that yields don't have any restrictions that stop signs don't, so there's no Alanlandian dilemma, which was my whole point in the first place.

[amroad17]

Heck, many people cannot negotiate 4-way stops.  Do you think they can negotiate 4-way yields?

[bzakharin]

There is absolutely no reason to ever have 4-way stops (or yields). If it's a lightly traveled intersection, pick a direction that has priority. If traffic is heavy, install a freakin' stop light.

[paulthemapguy]

Heck, many people cannot negotiate 4-way stops.  Do you think they can negotiate 4-way yields?

This.  So much this.  I was just talking to a friend yesterday about how I always prepare to wave people on or honk if need be when approaching a 4-way stop.  No one knows how to handle them.

[Rothman]

Heck, many people cannot negotiate 4-way stops.  Do you think they can negotiate 4-way yields?

This.  So much this.  I was just talking to a friend yesterday about how I always prepare to wave people on or honk if need be when approaching a 4-way stop.  No one knows how to handle them.

I do think there are people that freak out when they come to a 4-way stop and do not genuinely know what to do since our licensing requirements suck.  However, I do think there's also general confusion at 4-way stops as to who got to the intersection first and how that's even defined.

[roadman]

There is absolutely no reason to ever have 4-way stops (or yields). If it's a lightly traveled intersection, pick a direction that has priority. If traffic is heavy, install a freakin' stop light.

Most 4 way stop signs are, as some traffic engineers call it, a poor man's speed zone.

[PHLBOS]

There is absolutely no reason to ever have 4-way stops (or yields). If it's a lightly traveled intersection, pick a direction that has priority. If traffic is heavy, install a freakin' stop light.

Most 4 way stop signs are, as some traffic engineers call it, a poor man's speed zone.

There are a lot of those along non-PennDOT roads in southeastern PA.

[amroad17]

Whomever arrives first goes first.  If two cars arrive at the same time, the car on the right goes first.  My wife and I call this "Stop Sign Etiquette."

Some people can't figure out a 3-way stop.  My wife just blows her top when someone doesn't follow the "etiquette."  It's a bit amusing to watch her.  If she is a passenger, she will yell at me to GO! if no one moves.  If she is driving, she will stomp her foot on the accelerator if nobody moves, curse at the so-called idiots, and complain to me about them--"Don't they know anything?" 

[epzik8]

The arrow on this exit sign is covered by the trees.

[Rothman]

Heh.  Burkittsville is probably preparing for another onslaught of sign thieves due to the new Blair Witch movie coming out.

[mrsman]

slightly different aspect of poor placement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7618223,-73.9496483,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st1cljuVco-WgUDNh4svGVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
"right lane ends in 1 mile", ok.
if you look carefully, you can see a BGS a little bit down the road, maybe 0.1 mile. Here is a closer look:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7604682,-73.9469055,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQd4WkZ64IV59-UsEFFfgsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Exit 25 in 1 mile.
Which lane would you be using to get off the highway at that exit?

Here's how the NJ Turnpike handles a similar situation:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9399608,-74.9423118,3a,75y,260.73h,82.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa-gGh8S8rQD8l-37SnFnAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
That sign is just under 1 mile to where the right lane ends and about 0.3 miles after the One mile advance for the exit. It's still confusing, though, because it doesn't really tell you what happens to the right lane. Also, I've seen "Thru Traffic Keep Left" in places where there isn't a lane reduction, but just a 2-lane exit. I don't know how I would solve this other than just exit the right lane instead of ending it.

In Thruway case someone did read that exit-only lanes are bad. So what they did, they have a 3-lane+4th exit lane until the gore point, and third travel lane ends 30 feet after gore point. Exit-only lane would be much less messy and quite a bit cheaper. But that is not what the book says.

Placing "lane end 1 mile" sign before "exit 1 mile" sign complicates things even further. Both are technically correct, though

In the two situations described above (Schenectady along Thruway, Mount Holly along NJTP) the right thru lane ends mere feet after an exit.  The preferred way would be to just simply force the right lane to exit.  There are many ways where that condition can be warned ahead of time.

Thru traffic merge left

Right lane must exit 1 mile

Big BGS with exit only for the upcoming exit

Lane markings*

*Some states (notably Calif.) have different lane markers showing that the lane must turn soon.  Essentially very staccato lane markings.

See this example along the 101 near the Hollywood Bowl,  See how the right lane is different than the others:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1214703,-118.3399722,3a,75y,162.28h,68.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBppAnBl4wPEWysklbauAQw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[roadfro]

Lane markings*

*Some states (notably Calif.) have different lane markers showing that the lane must turn soon.  Essentially very staccato lane markings.

See this example along the 101 near the Hollywood Bowl,  See how the right lane is different than the others:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1214703,-118.3399722,3a,75y,162.28h,68.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBppAnBl4wPEWysklbauAQw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Such markings are in the 2009 MUTCD, and are referred to as a "dotted line". As a standard, they are to be used to separate through lanes from any of the following: acceleration/deceleration lanes, exit only lane drops, auxiliary lanes between adjacent entrance and exit ramps (< 2 miles long), or auxiliary lanes between adjacent intersections (< 1 mile long). Dotted lines are also used as lane extensions through intersections. (Note: A standard lane line is called a "broken line".)

Nevada is another area where these dotted lines are fairly standard practice on freeways, and well as where appropriate on major streets.

[jeffandnicole]

slightly different aspect of poor placement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7618223,-73.9496483,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st1cljuVco-WgUDNh4svGVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
"right lane ends in 1 mile", ok.
if you look carefully, you can see a BGS a little bit down the road, maybe 0.1 mile. Here is a closer look:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7604682,-73.9469055,3a,75y,109.27h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQd4WkZ64IV59-UsEFFfgsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Exit 25 in 1 mile.
Which lane would you be using to get off the highway at that exit?

Here's how the NJ Turnpike handles a similar situation:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9399608,-74.9423118,3a,75y,260.73h,82.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa-gGh8S8rQD8l-37SnFnAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
That sign is just under 1 mile to where the right lane ends and about 0.3 miles after the One mile advance for the exit. It's still confusing, though, because it doesn't really tell you what happens to the right lane. Also, I've seen "Thru Traffic Keep Left" in places where there isn't a lane reduction, but just a 2-lane exit. I don't know how I would solve this other than just exit the right lane instead of ending it.

In Thruway case someone did read that exit-only lanes are bad. So what they did, they have a 3-lane+4th exit lane until the gore point, and third travel lane ends 30 feet after gore point. Exit-only lane would be much less messy and quite a bit cheaper. But that is not what the book says.

Placing "lane end 1 mile" sign before "exit 1 mile" sign complicates things even further. Both are technically correct, though

In the two situations described above (Schenectady along Thruway, Mount Holly along NJTP) the right thru lane ends mere feet after an exit.  The preferred way would be to just simply force the right lane to exit.  There are many ways where that condition can be warned ahead of time.

I thought that *wasn't* the preferred way, as it causes people to quickly exit a lane they didn't know was ending.  I thought the preferred method was a lane drop, downstream from the last exit or in an area without anything else going on.