Red left turn signals -- red ball or red arrow?

[roadfro]

Another advantage of using a red arrow versus a circular red for left turn signals: with the arrow, you don't need to provide a "left turn signal" sign, or use louvers or programmed visibility heads to shield the red ball from through traffic.

[Mr_Northside]

There USED to be one of those on US 422 eastbound at PA 501. (There probably was/is westbound, but I never get to see since it's always been red when I've been westbound.) It has since been replaced by an LED one that doesn't do that anymore (it was an incandescent). I thought it was malfunctioning up until reading this thread, since I haven't seen it anywhere else (in person or picture aside from that) to this day.

There was a matching set (for both directions of travel) on East Ohio St (in Pittsburgh) of these at the intersection with Chestnut St. (that leads to the 16th St. Bridge) that did this.... 

[PHLBOS]

There was even a time when PA always had the red ball lit no matter what the orientation was.  I saw this back in 85 in Altoona and other places, and it would be lit even with the green arrow.  So when it was clear to turn left, you had both a red ball and green arrow working at the same time.

Nearly 20 years ago, PA didn't allow any type of red-arrow usage.  The 1991 edition of the PA Driver's manual even mentioned that the red-arrow was not used in Pennsylvania.

I think he's trying to get at this:

Collingdale/Darby Borough PA along MacDade Bldv./Chester Pike/US 13 intersection with Main St. in the distance.

That setup was also very common in Massachusetts back in a day as well.  Earlier, veritical 4-lens arrangements (red, yellow and 2 green arrows (one straight/one right or left) used to have scenarios where 2 lenses would be lit in most cycles/phases; red-one green arrow, yellow-one green arrow, both green arrows.

One traffic signal along MA 1A at the Lynnway/Commercial St. intersection in Lynn, even had 4-lens signal-heads that had three of its 4 lenses lit at one time for two diffent phases: one featured yellow & both green arrows (striaght and right) lit, the other red & both green arrows lit.  The red and yellow being lit was directed to motorists making a left turn from 1A North/Lynnway onto Commercial St.  There was a supplemental 4-lens signal-head with a left turn arrow located in the median.  When the other signal-heads had 3 of its lenses lit, this one only had 2 of its lenses lit; the yellow & straight green arrow and the red & straight green arrow... plus the 2 green arrows lit for the left turns onto Commercial St. phase.

This signal was replaced with a more conventional set-up in the late 80s when the Lynnway/Carroll Parkway was completely overhauled.

[KEK Inc.]

Always use an arrow, even if the light is diffracted for that lane.

[Mergingtraffic]

If a signal is specifically for a turn, the arrow only makes sense. Connecticut, unfortunately, thinks otherwise. Finding a red arrow anywhere in the state is next to impossible (though a few do exist).

As more lights are being replaced and those in new construction projects now have the red arrows.  Noticed a few in Danbury, Orange and even in Old Lyme recently. 

[codyg1985]

I remember as a kid (early 90's) that Tuscaloosa, AL used red arrows at some of their major intersections (US 82 at US 11, US 82 at 15th Street, etc.), but they switched to red balls.

Alabama uses red balls for the most part, but red arrows are creeping in some places, especially Dothan and Mobile. I saw one in Scottsboro, AL on Friday.

+1 for red arrows.

[dfnva]

Virginia has started using red arrows officially in 2010 after using the red ball for many years. I agree it's more clear for its function and does not necessitate the use of additional signs to denote its function.

Originally, all protected left signals in Virginia had the red ball for their red phase without "Left turn signal" or other auxillary signs. By the '90s, it depended on where in Virginia you were as different VDOT districts apparantly liked to, and still like to, do different things. The Northern Virginia, Fredericksburg, Culpeper, and Bristol districts have used the auxillary "Left turn signal" signal sign next to most protected left signals, all having the red ball. The Lynchburg district posts, instead, "Left turn on green arrow only" auxillary signs. All other districts post no auxillary sign, though occasionally lane use control signs serve this function (esp. in the Richmond suburbs). As of 2010, new protected left signals in Northern Virginia as well as the Fredericksburg and Culpeper districts, have red arrows. There has also been a vast effort to replace many existing signals with red arrows as well (along with the taking down of auxillary "Left turn signal" signs). I have not seen this widespread in other parts of the state.

-Dan

[Brandon]

Another advantage of using a red arrow versus a circular red for left turn signals: with the arrow, you don't need to provide a "left turn signal" sign, or use louvers or programmed visibility heads to shield the red ball from through traffic.

Actually, you do need the sign still.  In some states, there is no difference between a red ball and a red arrow legally, so the sign "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" must be used, or "NO TURN ON RED" for a right turn.  Illinois is one of these states.

[agentsteel53]

Actually, you do need the sign still.  In some states, there is no difference between a red ball and a red arrow legally, so the sign "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" must be used, or "NO TURN ON RED" for a right turn.  Illinois is one of these states.

really?  in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?

how the Hell does everyone keep track of this!?  I just learned that until 2011, all my U-turns in Wisconsin were illegal.  Who'da thunk.

[NE2]

really?  in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?

Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.

[signalman]

really?  in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?

Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.

Not to me.  I interperet a red arrow as I'm not allowed to turn and I must wait for green.  If I encounter a red ball and I don't see a 'No Turn on Red' sign, I assume I can turn on red.  All that applies to right turns.  I can't keep track of what states alow LTOR.  Those situations are generally reserved for downtown areas when one is likely to encounter two one way streets intersecting.  Me personally, I avoid downtown areas if I can afford to do so, so I rarely encounter an intersection where I might be allowed to turn left on red.

[NE2]

Not to me.  I interperet a red arrow as I'm not allowed to turn and I must wait for green.

But, by the same argument, a red ball would mean you're not allowed to go and must wait for green, even if turning. Turning on red is an exception to the standard rule, and it's illogical to apply it to one way of saying "you must stop" and not the other.

[agentsteel53]

really?  in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?

Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.

it is ambiguous.  the general red ball says "do not go in this direction.  do go right after a stop."  so if you set "this direction" to "right" instead of the "forward and left" that the general red ball usually implies, you get a logical contradiction.

I suppose it's a result of me doing most of my driving in California, but I've always thought "arrow means do not go under any circumstances" and "ball means there is a possibility of going right (or left on one-way to one-way transfers) after a stop".

in CA, we also have the flashing red arrow, which means "go right after stop".  I suppose a one-way to one-way might have a flashing red left arrow, but I've never seen one in the field.

[NE2]

it is ambiguous.  the general red ball says "do not go in this direction.  do go right after a stop."

In what direction? A ball applies to all directions - left, right, and straight.

[kphoger]

really?  in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?

Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.

it is ambiguous.  the general red ball says "do not go in this direction.  do go right after a stop."  so if you set "this direction" to "right" instead of the "forward and left" that the general red ball usually implies, you get a logical contradiction.

I suppose it's a result of me doing most of my driving in California, but I've always thought "arrow means do not go under any circumstances" and "ball means there is a possibility of going right (or left on one-way to one-way transfers) after a stop".

in CA, we also have the flashing red arrow, which means "go right after stop".  I suppose a one-way to one-way might have a flashing red left arrow, but I've never seen one in the field.

Having first looked up traffic laws while living in Illinois, I find it natural to turn right on red after stopping even on a red arrow.  Of course, I've only ever seen one red right-turn arrow in Illinois, but whatever.  I haven't actually looked up the law in Kansas yet, but I've never encountered a red right-turn arrow in this state anyway.

[myosh_tino]

Having first looked up traffic laws while living in Illinois, I find it natural to turn right on red after stopping even on a red arrow.

By using that logic, then would it be OK to make a left turn on a red arrow after making a stop?  If not, then red arrows have different meanings depending on which way they point.  Very confusing IMO.

Here's my thinking and a lot of it comes from the fact that I'm a native Californian...
If there is a red arrow (doesn't matter which direction it's pointing - up, left or right) then I'm not allowed to go in that direction until I see a green arrow. Period.

If the signal is a red ball, then going straight or left is not allowed until I get a green ball or arrow or both.  Turning right after stopping is OK unless there are signs prohibiting a RTOR (with the understanding that one-way streets are a different animal).

As for the flashing red arrow (something I haven't seen in the S.F. Bay Area for quite a while) Agentsteel53 brought up, I would treat any flashing red signal (ball or arrow) as a stop sign.

Apparently in Oregon, it's OK to turn right on a red arrow because I got honked at while waiting for a green right arrow.  I knew something was wrong when drivers in the lane next to me were making turns on the red signal.   Couple that with the fact that U-turns are not allowed unless signed and you're not allowed to pump your own gas makes driving in Oregon an "adventure".

[NE2]

Having first looked up traffic laws while living in Illinois, I find it natural to turn right on red after stopping even on a red arrow.

By using that logic, then would it be OK to make a left turn on a red arrow after making a stop?

Yes, if it would be legal to turn left on a red ball.

[agentsteel53]

in Illinois usage, what contexts require use of a red right arrow instead of a red ball?

California usage is more intuitive to me because the arrow overrides the red-ball meaning with a new meaning, while in Illinois usage it seems to be redundant to it.

[NE2]

in Illinois usage, what contexts require use of a red right arrow instead of a red ball?

Exclusive pedestrian phase with straight green (but then there'd be a no turn on red). I don't know if there are others, but it's extremely common around here to use arrows where there are turn-only lanes, especially at the end of offramps where you probably shouldn't go straight.

[Brandon]

in Illinois usage, what contexts require use of a red right arrow instead of a red ball?

California usage is more intuitive to me because the arrow overrides the red-ball meaning with a new meaning, while in Illinois usage it seems to be redundant to it.

It's basically only seen when there is a dedicated turn signal head (i.e. not a five lamp tower).  Previous to the FHWA mandating red arrows, both red arrows and red balls could be seen on these signal heads as the meaning is redundant.

[Brandon]

Having first looked up traffic laws while living in Illinois, I find it natural to turn right on red after stopping even on a red arrow.

By using that logic, then would it be OK to make a left turn on a red arrow after making a stop?  If not, then red arrows have different meanings depending on which way they point.  Very confusing IMO.

If the sign "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" is not posted, then yes, you can turn left on a red arrow in Illinois.  Its meaning is no different than a five lamp tower with a green light at that point.

Now, that said, there are a few places where that can occur in the state, and even have multiple left turn lanes that can turn left on red.  For example, at Center and Jefferson here in Joliet, one can turn left on red from both left turn lanes (one-way to one-way).

[myosh_tino]

If the sign "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" is not posted, then yes, you can turn left on a red arrow in Illinois.  Its meaning is no different than a five lamp tower with a green light at that point.

Now, that said, there are a few places where that can occur in the state, and even have multiple left turn lanes that can turn left on red.  For example, at Center and Jefferson here in Joliet, one can turn left on red from both left turn lanes (one-way to one-way).

California used to have "LEFT (OR U) TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" signs on mast arms and signals mounted on medians or islands but they have gradually disappeared because of the use of the red left arrows.

As for intersections of two one-way streets, left turns after stopping are permitted in California if the signal is a red ball.  If there's a red arrow, then you must wait for a green arrow before turning.

[austrini]

I prefer a red arrow, JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

In Dallas we often have flashing yellow left arrows to indicate a yield on left turns instead

[Brandon]

I prefer a red arrow, JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

In Dallas we often have flashing yellow left arrows to indicate a yield on left turns instead

We use a green ball for that in IDOT Districts 1 and 3 on a five lamp tower (or a few remaining four lamp towers with color changing arrow in D3).  IDOT District 4 (Peoria) uses the flashing yellow arrow.

How's that for consistency within one state.

[kphoger]

in Illinois usage, what contexts require use of a red right arrow instead of a red ball?

California usage is more intuitive to me because the arrow overrides the red-ball meaning with a new meaning, while in Illinois usage it seems to be redundant to it.

It's basically only seen when there is a dedicated turn signal head (i.e. not a five lamp tower).  Previous to the FHWA mandating red arrows, both red arrows and red balls could be seen on these signal heads as the meaning is redundant.

Indeed, the only place I remember seeing it in Illinois (keep in mind that my driving in northern Illinois ended in 2006, and southern Illinois in 2008) was where an exit ramp diverged into left- and right-turning movements.  All I remember (it was a long time ago now) is that it was a tollway exit in a fairly rural area, but I'm unable to find its location now on Google Maps.  I remember thinking that a solid ball would have worked fine, since there was no other movement available.