Red left turn signals -- red ball or red arrow?

[signalman]

Not to me.  I interperet a red arrow as I'm not allowed to turn and I must wait for green.

But, by the same argument, a red ball would mean you're not allowed to go and must wait for green, even if turning. Turning on red is an exception to the standard rule, and it's illogical to apply it to one way of saying "you must stop" and not the other.

True, that allowing a turn on red is an exception.  However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.  I don't see how that is an illogical conclusion of what the signal is trying to convey.

[NE2]

However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.

No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.

[Alps]

However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.

No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.

Not according to the MUTCD.

[NE2]

However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.

No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.

Not according to the MUTCD.

The MUTCD is illogical.

[agentsteel53]

However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.

No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.

Not according to the MUTCD.

The MUTCD is illogical.

in this case, I believe the MUTCD is being logical.  why have "red arrow" and "red ball" assigned to the same meaning, when they can be assigned to different meanings to provide greater flexibility in traffic control?

[Brandon]

However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.

No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.

Not according to the MUTCD.

The MUTCD can say what it wants.  It's all dependent upon state laws and vehicle codes.

[signalman]

However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.

No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.

Not according to the MUTCD.

The MUTCD is illogical.

in this case, I believe the MUTCD is being logical.  why have "red arrow" and "red ball" assigned to the same meaning, when they can be assigned to different meanings to provide greater flexibility in traffic control?

The MUTCD is being logical.  If a red ball and a red arrow are going to have the same meaning, then why have the red arrow?  The flexibility aspect is the only advantage that I can see (red ball= turn permitted after full stop, red arrow=turn not permitted).  Seems completely reasonable and logical to me.

[Central Avenue]

I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."

[agentsteel53]

I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."

that's what a flashing red arrow is for.  "stop, then go when it is safe to proceed" - analogous to flashing red ball.

but flashing red arrow seems to be a California-only phenomenon.  do any other states use it?

[Ian]

I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."

that's what a flashing red arrow is for.  "stop, then go when it is safe to proceed" - analogous to flashing red ball.

but flashing red arrow seems to be a California-only phenomenon.  do any other states use it?

Delaware uses it.

[Mr_Northside]

I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."

I'll have to check that proverbial box as well as to how I'd interpret it.  Can't say there are too many Right-Red-Arrow signals here in PA (or at least, Western PA) though.  Pretty much all "balls", and "No Turn On Red" signs where they don't want you turning red.

[MASTERNC]

I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."

I'll have to check that proverbial box as well as to how I'd interpret it.  Can't say there are too many Right-Red-Arrow signals here in PA (or at least, Western PA) though.  Pretty much all "balls", and "No Turn On Red" signs where they don't want you turning red.

There are a few right red arrows in Philly.  They usually post a supplemental "No Turn on Red" sign, although one intersection with dual right turn lanes (and red arrows) has a "No Turn On Red Except from Right Lane" sign.

[kj3400]

I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."

that's what a flashing red arrow is for.  "stop, then go when it is safe to proceed" - analogous to flashing red ball.

but flashing red arrow seems to be a California-only phenomenon.  do any other states use it?

Maryland does. I know of one on MD 122 (Security Blvd) just east of I-695.

[roadman65]

I see Texas, or at least in the Houston area has both red ball and red arrow, but they use two red lights on their left turn signals with either of these two.

[mjb2002]

Just noticing photos of left turn signals all over the place. Do you have a preference for a red arrow as opposed to a red ball? I'm only asking about protected left signals, where you can only turn left on a green arrow.

Gimme red arrows any day.

[kphoger]

So they just installed a red right-turn arrow on southbound Woodlawn at the Kellogg frontage road here in Wichita.  I just saw it last night, while we were on our way home from the grocery store.

Me - A red right-turn arrow.
Wife - That's new; they must have just put that in.
Me - They're the subject of a discussion online.
Wife - Huh?  Why?
Me - What does it naturally mean?  You can turn after stopping, or you can't turn at all?
Wife - You can't turn at all.
Me - Actually, it means you can turn after stopping.
Wife - What?  That's stupid.

Hmmmm..... She's just that one point away from being perfect for me. 

[Ace10]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned Florida yet, but it is legal in Florida to make a RTOR on a red arrow. I looked it up and noticed that RTOR on a red arrow is illegal in a majority of states.

I agree that keeping track of each state's individual laws is frustrating and impractical. Before today, I actually haven't heard of using a flashing red arrow to permit right-turns after stopping, whereas the solid arrow would be used to prohibit the turn altogether. I think this is a great way to unambiguously tell drivers what is and is not allowed at the intersection at any given point in time.

Of course, if there are signals over dedicated right-turn lanes, a FYA should be used when the through movement has a green ball if there may be pedestrians in a crosswalk. I know the MUTCD mandates arrow-only signals over dedicated left-turn lanes, but I'm not too sure about its stance on right turn lanes.

EDIT: I will add that I believe all signal faces for signals over dedicated turn lanes, left or right, be arrow only. This would have prevented my yelling at my mom driving to stop for a red light. When on a crowded city street in New Orleans with an intersection every 0.01 miles, the left turn signal was displaying a red ball. I couldn't tell it was a left turn signal, and since I couldn't see any of the other signals for the intersection (I was in the back seat) I thought the entire intersection was red and that she was about to blow through the light. Having the arrow there would have prevented that.

[kphoger]

I actually haven't heard of using a flashing red arrow to permit right-turns after stopping, whereas the solid arrow would be used to prohibit the turn altogether. I think this is a great way to unambiguously tell drivers what is and is not allowed at the intersection at any given point in time.

This would only help if every single right-turn arrow in the nation switched to using a flashing red for permitted turns.  Otherwise, if some used a steady arrow and some used a flashing arrow, then it would be slightly more difficult than now to tell what you're allowed to do at a solid red arrow, since most state laws permit turning.  Then, in those jurisdictions, the flashing arrow and the steady arrow would mean the same thing, whereas in the other jurisdictions they would have separate meanings.

[kphoger]

And, I'm sorry for derailing this thread into right turns.  I had originally thought I was posting in a right-turn thread, and only realize now that it's the wrong thread.

[mjb2002]

really?  in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?

Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.

Not to me.  I interperet a red arrow as I'm not allowed to turn and I must wait for green.  If I encounter a red ball and I don't see a 'No Turn on Red' sign, I assume I can turn on red.  All that applies to right turns.  I can't keep track of what states alow LTOR.  Those situations are generally reserved for downtown areas when one is likely to encounter two one way streets intersecting.  Me personally, I avoid downtown areas if I can afford to do so, so I rarely encounter an intersection where I might be allowed to turn left on red.

South Carolina allows for left turns on red - ONLY on divided highways. The City of Aiken had many of these kinds of signs on RICHLAND AVE until 2010. But it still applies. If you are on a divided highway and you can make a left turn on red, then stop and make the left when it is safe to do so.

[pctech]

I vote red arrow.

[MDOTFanFB]

I also prefer the red arrow, however I've been used to seeing (flashing) red balls since I live in Michigan and the red arrow is mostly on newer installations there.

[PHLBOS]

I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."

I'll have to check that proverbial box as well as to how I'd interpret it.  Can't say there are too many Right-Red-Arrow signals here in PA (or at least, Western PA) though.  Pretty much all "balls", and "No Turn On Red" signs where they don't want you turning red.

There are a few right red arrows in Philly.  They usually post a supplemental "No Turn on Red" sign, although one intersection with dual right turn lanes (and red arrows) has a "No Turn On Red Except from Right Lane" sign.

Most if not all of the red-arrows I've seen in PA (including Greater Philly) are Left-turn arrows; so the only Left on Red rule would apply if the intersecting roads and the road one's on are both one-way as with a standard red-ball signal.

[roadman65]

There seems to be a question in Florida about right turn arrows.  A friend of mine who repairs signals in Orange County, FL says it means the same as no turn on red.  Then a know it all man who hangs out reliougusly in a breastaurant (new name for Hooters types of restaurants) told me the Orlando Sentinal had an article stating that it is not for stating no turns on red and applies like a red ball would.  A sign is needed.

Furthermore, some intersections near railroads will have a light up no right turn when a train comes to prevent back ups on the parallel street.  However, some people ignore it and will wait for the train and hold up through traffic.  I think there is a question about this one.  Orange Avenue at Landstreet Road in Taft has this set up as the CSX mainline runs alongside of Orange Avenue.  Vehicles are not to go SB to WB when a train comes across Landstreet,

[NE2]

There seems to be a question in Florida about right turn arrows.

Nope. http://www.dot.state.fl.us/TrafficOperations/FAQs/TrafSignalFAQ.shtm