Signs With Design Errors

[myosh_tino]

This CA 150 shield is way out of place - thanks to California's use of internal exit tabs.

Almost all the state route markers in exit signs look like that though.

I think national highway 1 was referring to the placement of the CA-150 shield on the guide sign, not the way the shield looks.

To me, it appears as if a cardinal direction was supposed to accompany the shield but was left off.

[amroad17]

Since California has internal exit tabs, maybe they should left-justify on the exit signs.  I have seen a few left-justified exit signs on I-490 west of Rochester.  It is not something seen too often but they did not look bad.

[Max Rockatansky]

This CA 150 shield is way out of place - thanks to California's use of internal exit tabs.

Almost all the state route markers in exit signs look like that though.

I think national highway 1 was referring to the placement of the CA-150 shield on the guide sign, not the way the shield looks.

To me, it appears as if a cardinal direction was supposed to accompany the shield but was left off.

Yes I thought about that too when I stepped away from the computer.  Unfortunately the ugly design and poor shield placement are both very common on guide signs out here.  Most are dead center but they are often floating off to the left if there isn't enough room with the destination listed along with exit tab.

[paulthemapguy]

Left-justified exit tabs imply a Left-exit.

[Max Rockatansky]

Funny thing is on the southbound lanes of US 101 the CA 150 is dead center but the exit number is missing from the guide sign. 

[tckma]

Left-justified exit tabs imply a Left-exit.

You'd think this would be pretty easy for folks to figure out, but I've noticed with newer sign assemblies for left-hand exits, they put a giant black LEFT on a yellow background above the left-justified tab.

Also, different jurisdictions (I'm looking at YOU, Pennsylvania) sometimes center the exit tabs, so you can't even rely on that.

[PHLBOS]

Left-justified exit tabs imply a Left-exit.

You'd think this would be pretty easy for folks to figure out, but I've noticed with newer sign assemblies for left-hand exits, they put a giant black LEFT on a yellow background above the left-justified tab.

Such is due to the latest MUTCD standards requiring such.

Also, different jurisdictions (I'm looking at YOU, Pennsylvania) sometimes center the exit tabs, so you can't even rely on that.

Were these examples older signs (early 80s and earlier), fabricated when center-justified exit tabs were still the accepted standard?

[tckma]

Were these examples older signs (early 80s and earlier), fabricated when center-justified exit tabs were still the accepted standard?

Usually button-copy, so I assume so.  Didn't know the left/right justification for left/right exit wasn't always standard.

[bzakharin]

Left-justified exit tabs imply a Left-exit.

You'd think this would be pretty easy for folks to figure out, but I've noticed with newer sign assemblies for left-hand exits, they put a giant black LEFT on a yellow background above the left-justified tab.

Such is due to the latest MUTCD standards requiring such.

Also, while a left-justified exit tab might suggest a left exit to some of the people some of the time, if you see an exit sign with a left-justified tab in isolation it doesn't necessarily jump out at you the way a left arrow or a black on yellow LEFT does. It's like a left-pointing airplane icon for airports. Does it mean you go left or is it just that the icon was designed that way?

[Scott5114]

That, and some DOTs are bad about randomly putting the tab on the left for a right exit.

[TEG24601]

That, and some DOTs are bad about randomly putting the tab on the left for a right exit.

I've come to love WSDOT's full-width "tabs" and MDOT (MI)'s center only tabs.

[cl94]

That, and some DOTs are bad about randomly putting the tab on the left for a right exit.

Cough...NYSTA...cough. Said sign was replaced in 2014 with one of those miserable NYSTA Clearview signs we Northeast people keep complaining about...except it has a center tab. 

[AMLNet49]

Were these examples older signs (early 80s and earlier), fabricated when center-justified exit tabs were still the accepted standard?

Usually button-copy, so I assume so.  Didn't know the left/right justification for left/right exit wasn't always standard.

However, Pennsylvania did post brand new Clearview signs with center-justified exit tabs on 378. I believe this happened because they were a "replace in kind" contract, however there was probably a missed instruction to change the tab location.

[OracleUsr]

That, and some DOTs are bad about randomly putting the tab on the left for a right exit.

I pass by an example every time I go to my mother's house (she lives in Chapel Hill now):

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0454981,-79.8454491,3a,75y,127.86h,88.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv6R4oRug1COFFJyhG0pw_A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[OracleUsr]

And it's still wrong, even after they upgraded the sign on the right to reflect the road's new name, Gate City Blvd.

[OracleUsr]

Were these examples older signs (early 80s and earlier), fabricated when center-justified exit tabs were still the accepted standard?

Usually button-copy, so I assume so.  Didn't know the left/right justification for left/right exit wasn't always standard.

The practice, which I refer to as "Directional tabbing" (I think the technical term is "Directional alignment") became more prevalent in the 90's, but some states had already taken hold.  Pennsylvania did it more as they converted to distance numbering in 2001.

[jakeroot]

I liken this "directional alignment" of exit tabs to be similar to the type 3 object markers (seen here, page 33 of 34), in terms of how a relatively minute difference has such an important meaning. Minute enough, that I'm not certain that most people fully take to heart the meaning behind left or right alignment of exit tabs. I think this is why several states can get away with centered exit tabs, with yellow "LEFT" tabs when necessary.

[PHLBOS]

However, Pennsylvania did post brand new Clearview signs with center-justified exit tabs on 378. I believe this happened because they were a "replace in kind" contract, however there was probably a missed instruction to change the tab location.

Until you mentioned the above, I wasn't even aware that PA 378 even had numbered interchanges.  Looking through GSV; I noticed that the numbers are going in the opposite direction (increasing southbound rather than northbound) plus the ramps for exit 2 from 378 northbound are signed EXIT 2E and EXIT 2W (those particular tabs are right-justified BTW).  Clearly 378's gone afoul on several counts.

The practice, which I refer to as "Directional tabbing" (I think the technical term is "Directional alignment") became more prevalent in the 90's, but some states had already taken hold.  Pennsylvania did it more as they converted to distance numbering in 2001.

Directional tabbing started showing up on PA BGS' (both PennDOT and PTC) during the early-to-mid 1980s.  Many of the BGS' along I-76 (Schuylkill Expressway) date back to when the road was completely overhauled circa 1984-85 and those have directionally-aligned exit tabs.

[briantroutman]

Until you mentioned the above, I wasn't even aware that PA 378 even had numbered interchanges.  Looking through GSV; I noticed that the numbers are going in the opposite direction (increasing southbound rather than northbound) plus the ramps for exit 2 from 378 northbound are signed EXIT 2E and EXIT 2W (those particular tabs are right-justified BTW).  Clearly 378's gone afoul on several counts.

No, not afoul–at least not in interchange numbering. Having originally been Interstate 378, the exits are numbered correctly–increasing from the parent (which at the time was I-78 as routed over the Lehigh Valley Thruway).

It's the same reason why I-180 is numbered from east to west.

The south-to-north and west-to-east conventions apply to primary Interstates, not three-digit spurs.

Section 2E.31 Interchange Exit Numbering

14. Spur route interchanges shall be numbered in ascending order starting at the interchange where the spur leaves the mainline route (see Figure 2E-20).

[PHLBOS]

No, not afoul– at least not in interchange numbering. Having originally been Interstate 378, the exits are numbered correctly–increasing from the parent (which at the time was I-78 as routed over the Lehigh Valley Thruway).

It's the same reason why I-180 is numbered from east to west.

The south-to-north and west-to-east conventions apply to primary Interstates, not three-digit spurs.

A few things:

1.  I-378 was downgraded to PA 378 decades ago with no chance of such being revived.  While such is still considered a spur highway; 378's no longer part of the Interstate system.  I realized after I typed my previous post that the numbering was a leftover from the I-378 era.

2.  As you mentioned, I-78 was moved to its new corridor well after #1 occurred.

3.  PA's conversion to mile-marker based exit numbers occurred well after #s 1 & 2 happened.  The redirection of the numbering IMHO should've changed then.  It is my understanding that interchange numbering on PA's non-Interstate highways that have numbered interchanges increase north and/or east; regardless of whether such is a loop or spur.

Side bar: In the near-26 years I've lived in the Keystone State; I've never seen any interchanges numbers in PA with directional suffixes (they obviously exist(ed)).  Such should've been changed when PA converted all their interchange numbers; even if such a change meant simply using A/B rather than E/W or N/S.

[machias]

Were these examples older signs (early 80s and earlier), fabricated when center-justified exit tabs were still the accepted standard?

Usually button-copy, so I assume so.  Didn't know the left/right justification for left/right exit wasn't always standard.

The left/right hand justification of exit tabs didn't come about until the late 1970s or early 1980s.  Being an old-timer I really miss the centered exit tabs, I think the sign looks neater and there's more consistent than what we see today. There are installers that don't grasp the idea that right-side means right hand exit and left-side means left hand exit and we have a lot of exit tabs on the wrong side of the sign, at least in New York State.

NYSDOT and NYSTA indent the exit tab from the side of the sign and justify to the radius instead of the edge (most of the time). I think this looks better with signs that are actually rounded off vs. extruded panels that are square with a rounded border. It just looks weird to me when I'm traveling in SC.

If I was the supreme guide panel dictator, right hand exits would have centered tabs and left hand exits would have a left-justified tab with "LEFT 1 MILE" or "LEFT EXIT 1 MILE" in the bottom line legend.  If we need to go to the lengths of putting the sign on the left hand side of the row, a black-on-yellow left banner and the like, we are addressing the very lowest common denominator of driver that probably shouldn't be driving anyway.

[myosh_tino]

No, not afoul–at least not in interchange numbering. Having originally been Interstate 378, the exits are numbered correctly–increasing from the parent (which at the time was I-78 as routed over the Lehigh Valley Thruway).

It's the same reason why I-180 is numbered from east to west.

The south-to-north and west-to-east conventions apply to primary Interstates, not three-digit spurs.

I did not know that.

Of course, California has chosen to ignore that tidbit of information.  Freeway exit numbers increase west-to-east and south-to-north regardless of type (primary interstate, interstate spur, interstate loop, U.S. route or California state route).  Prime examples would be I-505, where exit numbering begins at I-80 rather than at I-5, and I-710, where exit numbering begins in Long Beach rather than at I-10.

[briantroutman]

3.  PA's conversion to mile-marker based exit numbers occurred well after #s 1 & 2 happened.  The redirection of the numbering IMHO should've changed then.  It is my understanding that interchange numbering on PA's non-Interstate highways that have numbered interchanges increase north and/or east; regardless of whether such is a loop or spur.

My guess is that in this case, PennDOT just kept the original sequential numbering because, for one, if the freeway had been built as a state route, the exits likely wouldn't have been numbered to begin with. But perhaps more importantly, as a three-mile freeway with three exits, the exits would have been the same (1, 2, 3) but in reverse order. That is unless they're truly based on the mileage of the route, in which case they'd have been–somewhat awkwardly–6, 7, and 8.

But looking at the current signs in GSV, from their centered exit tabs to the somewhat anachronistic "EXIT ↓ ¹/₂ MILE"  at Exit 2, it appears they might be an exact duplication of the original signage–just updated with Clearview and retroreflective sheeting.

Side bar: In the near-26 years I've lived in the Keystone State; I've never seen any interchanges numbers in PA with directional suffixes (they obviously exist(ed)).  Such should've been changed when PA converted all their interchange numbers; even if such a change meant simply using A/B rather than E/W or N/S.

In the near 26 years that I lived in the Keystone State (literally–odd coincidence), I can recall only two offhand. The interchange on I-80 with US 11 was for years signed as EXITS 36 N - S. When the state changed numbering to sequential, this became EXITS 241 A - B.

But strangely, I-80's interchange with I-180 and PA 147 I recall being EXITS 31 A - B, but then it changed to EXITS 212 W - S in the transition to mileage-based numbering. Yes, not only directional suffixes, but perhaps one of the only times where adjacent compass points were paired on an exit number suffix. (I'm sure someone will be quick to correct me.) It has since been changed to A - B.

[PHLBOS]

Until a year or two ago, there were still a couple of directional suffixed interchanges in Massachusetts along Route 128: MA 35 (Exits 23N-S) & MA 62 (Exits 22E-W, northbound only) around.  Those went away when both interchanges were recently converted in to diamond/SPUI interchanges... no suffixed exit ramps, just Exits 22 & 23.

[hotdogPi]

Until a year or two ago, there were still a couple of directional suffixed interchanges in Massachusetts along Route 128: MA 35 (Exits 23N-S) & MA 62 (Exits 22E-W, northbound only) around.  Those went away when both interchanges were recently converted in to diamond/SPUI interchanges... no suffixed exit ramps, just Exits 22 & 23.

Where's the SPUI? Exit 22 is not one, and neither is Exit 23.