Black Friday: Should doorbuster sales be banned or restricted?

[NE2]

Mallard Fillmore hates capitalism.

[kphoger]

Probably not very much. How many people do you know gifting each other big screen TVs?

Married people.

[roadman65]

 

Mallard Fillmore hates capitalism.

[golden eagle]

That I agree with. 

I dislike so-called blue laws intensely (since not all people of faith observe Sunday as the Sabbath, I consider them to be a violation of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and an offense to our secular system of government).

I agree. I remember malls here in MS used to not be open on Sundays until the mid-80s, when the state's blue laws were ruled unconstitutional. I don't get blue laws either. Since when did a mall keep someone from going to church? 

[Alps]

Have there been any deaths reported? It's not a true Black Friday unless someone's squashed trying to pick up one of one newfangled electronics available at a discount (ha ha) retailer.

Yup, they got one of the temporary Walmart workers. I'm sure Walmart won't pay a dime because he was temporary and they're fascists.

[english si]

I'm not entirely opposed to laws that require businesses to shut down on holidays; I guess I'm on the fence about it.  As a way of accepting a Sunday blue law, I could view Sundays as miniature weekly civic holidays:  just as Christmas is both a religious and a civic holiday, so might Sunday be.  Many nonreligious people, after all, still treat Sunday as a day of rest, and the case could be made that it is healthy for our society to take a 'break' on a regular basis.  I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and would be hesitant to actually broaden such laws.

We have restricted Sunday trading in England (and Wales) - big stores can only open for 6 hours. For the Olympics, it was relaxed, though from what I gather, while stores opened longer, there was often little fanfare and I don't recall anyone caring other than to score political points. One of the big four supermarkets said that it made little business sense for them to open longer on Sundays, as they predicted barely breaking even for the extra hours - they opened a few stores in tourist areas, citing that they reckoned on some small profits and not wanting their competitors to steal some of their share.

It's an interesting political debate, with a lot of heat, but little light:
- The left are divided between sticking it religion and protecting workers rights and small businesses
- The right are divided between protecting small businesses, keeping tradition and removing regulation on business
- The Scottish (who don't have these restrictions) are completely baffled by the whole idea, except for those on the Western Isles, where shops are boycotted for opening on Sundays and there's protests when they talk about the ferries running on Sundays.

The sticking it to religion crowd is perhaps the most idiotic - their sole argument is that this is imposing religion on people, completely forgetting that while nominally Christian England has Sunday trading restrictions, so does aggressively secular France (and they are more strict than England's ones). Oh, and they typically are the sort of intolerant, hypocritical, people who want to impose their equivalent-to-religious views with force-of-law on religious groups.

[kphoger]

Most holidays, after all, can be traced to religion anyway.  Thanksgiving itself was officially instituted in the US with the proclamation that we give 'Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens' (A. Lincoln).  Go even further back in history, clear to the early 1600s, and other proclamations are similar; thanksgiving, after all, implies that that there is a Someone to whom you are thankful.

But that doesn't mean that all holidays attempt to force religion on the people.  It's not like Black Friday, by reason of being one day after Thanksgiving, attempts to force shoppers into believing in a deity any more than closing a store on Thanksgiving itself attempts to.  I think it's entirely appropriate that a nation's government should be able to enact civic holidays during which businesses must remain closed; the fact that such civic holidays may or may not coincide with religious holidays shouldn't matter.

My feelings about Black Friday and 'Christmas creep' seem to be more religious in nature (putting the focus on buying stuff instead of on the Christ child, taking over the Thanksgiving holiday, etc.).  OTOH, my feelings about 'blue laws' and such seem to be less religious in nature (the government's place in our lives, the value of freedom vs. the value of a day of rest, etc.).  Maybe the link between the two isn't as strong as we think it is.....

[Special K]

Most holidays, after all, can be traced to religion anyway. 

Which have piggy-backed pagan holidays.

[cpzilliacus]

I'm not entirely opposed to laws that require businesses to shut down on holidays; I guess I'm on the fence about it.  As a way of accepting a Sunday blue law, I could view Sundays as miniature weekly civic holidays:  just as Christmas is both a religious and a civic holiday, so might Sunday be.  Many nonreligious people, after all, still treat Sunday as a day of rest, and the case could be made that it is healthy for our society to take a 'break' on a regular basis.  I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and would be hesitant to actually broaden such laws.

We have restricted Sunday trading in England (and Wales) - big stores can only open for 6 hours. For the Olympics, it was relaxed, though from what I gather, while stores opened longer, there was often little fanfare and I don't recall anyone caring other than to score political points. One of the big four supermarkets said that it made little business sense for them to open longer on Sundays, as they predicted barely breaking even for the extra hours - they opened a few stores in tourist areas, citing that they reckoned on some small profits and not wanting their competitors to steal some of their share.

It's an interesting political debate, with a lot of heat, but little light:
- The left are divided between sticking it religion and protecting workers rights and small businesses
- The right are divided between protecting small businesses, keeping tradition and removing regulation on business
- The Scottish (who don't have these restrictions) are completely baffled by the whole idea, except for those on the Western Isles, where shops are boycotted for opening on Sundays and there's protests when they talk about the ferries running on Sundays.

Don't forget that the United Kingdom is not a secular republic, unlike the U.S.

The sticking it to religion crowd is perhaps the most idiotic - their sole argument is that this is imposing religion on people, completely forgetting that while nominally Christian England has Sunday trading restrictions, so does aggressively secular France (and they are more strict than England's ones). Oh, and they typically are the sort of intolerant, hypocritical, people who want to impose their equivalent-to-religious views with force-of-law on religious groups.

I agree especially with your bolded comments above.

Sweden and Finland (both of which have Evangelical Lutheranism as their state religions) used to be very strict about everything shutting-down on Saturday afternoons around 3 P.M.  No more.  Now many things are open late and on Sundays as well.

There are non-religious kooks and nuts out there in every society.  In free nations (such as those mentioned here), we have to patiently put  up with and  sometimes even listen to their arguments.

[english si]

Don't forget that the United Kingdom is not a secular republic, unlike the U.S.

As someone who is a member of a CofE church, I actually see that more than most people. Of course, it typically works backwards - see Parliament's recent threats to interfere with the internal affairs of the church (reiterated strongly today) - that they voted wrongly (and no, the CofE didn't reject women bishops - it rejected one way of dealing with the issue).

There are non-religious kooks and nuts out there in every society.  In free nations (such as those mentioned here), we have to patiently put  up with and  sometimes even listen to their arguments.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that what I said wasn't true. And likewise you have religious kooks who do the same - attack those who have different religious(-esque) views for wanting to impose such views while wanting to impose their religious(-esque) views.

I'm not that fussed about Sunday trading, but I am against fallacious arguments to abolish it - one of which is that it's automatically seeking to impose Christianity on people. After all, if France, where Paris has banned prayer in public spaces (as Muslims were blocking streets - but instead of banning blocking streets they used a hammer to crack a nut) - which is just an extension of the French government desire that religion is something done in private and should have no effect when you walk out of your house/place of worship - has stricter Sunday trading than England.

[triplemultiplex]

Black Friday; or the reason strip malls and big box stores have those giant parking lots that sit half-vacant the other 364 days of the year.

There's no sale that's going to be good enough to make me go near a store on that day.  A bunch of idiots spending money they don't have on shit they don't need is a pretty lame ass tradition.

Rather than trying to control crowds, they should be handing them weapons and broadcasting it live on pay-per-view.  Now let's see how bad you want that new game console, dear rabid consumer.

[cpzilliacus]

Don't forget that the United Kingdom is not a secular republic, unlike the U.S.

As someone who is a member of a CofE church, I actually see that more than most people. Of course, it typically works backwards - see Parliament's recent threats to interfere with the internal affairs of the church (reiterated strongly today) - that they voted wrongly (and no, the CofE didn't reject women bishops - it rejected one way of dealing with the issue).

I don't know enough about the laws of the United Kingdom to know how the Parliament "oversees" the Church of England, but it bothers me that the MPs would involve themselves in such matters.

There are non-religious kooks and nuts out there in every society.  In free nations (such as those mentioned here), we have to patiently put  up with and  sometimes even listen to their arguments.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that what I said wasn't true. And likewise you have religious kooks who do the same - attack those who have different religious(-esque) views for wanting to impose such views while wanting to impose their religious(-esque) views.

I strongly agree.   I have a major problem with people that want to impose their values on others, often using the powers of democratic government to achieve what they want.

I'm not that fussed about Sunday trading, but I am against fallacious arguments to abolish it - one of which is that it's automatically seeking to impose Christianity on people. After all, if France, where Paris has banned prayer in public spaces (as Muslims were blocking streets - but instead of banning blocking streets they used a hammer to crack a nut) - which is just an extension of the French government desire that religion is something done in private and should have no effect when you walk out of your house/place of worship - has stricter Sunday trading than England.

We are in agreement.  I get the impression that efforts to limit Sunday business often come from the secular Left in at least some EU nations (curiously, the same applies to sales of alcoholic beverages in some parts of the EU), while in the U.S., it usually comes from the religious Right.

[kphoger]

Most holidays, after all, can be traced to religion anyway. 

Which have piggy-backed pagan holidays.

And paganism is a category of religion.

[cpzilliacus]

Most holidays, after all, can be traced to religion anyway. 

Which have piggy-backed pagan holidays.

And paganism is a category of religion.

Indeed it is.

[kkt]

Hate the doorbusting "Christmas" sales.  Which door would Jesus bust?

I'd be tempted to call for triple pay for all employees required to work between 11 PM Wednesday and 8 AM Friday.  Or require all sales to last at least a week, with rainchecks given if they're unable to fill demand at the advertised price.  But it'd be awfully hard to write such laws in such a way as to avoid unintended side effects.

[berberry]

I strongly support the regulatory functions of government, but I think that's beside the point here.  The point, as far as I'm concerned, is that we have what's called a "compelling interest" in strictly regulating this type of sale.  When you can count the human casualties of a "sale", there's a compelling interest.  We need to stop this nonsense now.  Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before this happens again. 

New regulations were imposed in 1980 in a lot of places to keep something like that from happening again.  Apparently we weren't thinking about going shopping.

[Special K]

Most holidays, after all, can be traced to religion anyway. 

Which have piggy-backed pagan holidays.

And paganism is a category of religion.

Indeed it is.

To be sure.

[Special K]

Hate the doorbusting "Christmas" sales.  Which door would Jesus bust?

Jesus was known to flip a table or two.  Allegedly.

[Special K]

I strongly support the regulatory functions of government, but I think that's beside the point here.  The point, as far as I'm concerned, is that we have what's called a "compelling interest" in strictly regulating this type of sale.  When you can count the human casualties of a "sale", there's a compelling interest.  We need to stop this nonsense now.  Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before this happens again. 

New regulations were imposed in 1980 in a lot of places to keep something like that from happening again.  Apparently we weren't thinking about going shopping.

If only Macy's would hire The Who to play a Black Friday show at 12:01am, we will have come full-circle.

[kkt]

Hate the doorbusting "Christmas" sales.  Which door would Jesus bust?

Jesus was known to flip a table or two.  Allegedly.

Yeah, but not to save 30% on a big screen TV.

[berberry]

Jesus was known to flip a table or two.  Allegedly.

Yeah, but not to save 30% on a big screen TV.

Well no, I guess not.  I mean, that whole table-flipping thing ruined his credit, so he couldn't get the 90-days same-as-cash.

[Special K]

Hate the doorbusting "Christmas" sales.  Which door would Jesus bust?

Jesus was known to flip a table or two.  Allegedly.

Yeah, but not to save 30% on a big screen TV.

Only because they didn't exist.  Imagine the tempatation possibilities nowadays.

[J N Winkler]

Only because they didn't exist.  Imagine the tempatation possibilities nowadays.

Satan on Mount Tibidabo, wearing a Wal-Mart greeter's uniform, saying:  "And now we have 90% off on the Nexus 7 . . ."

[cpzilliacus]

Hate the doorbusting "Christmas" sales.  Which door would Jesus bust?

Jesus was known to flip a table or two.  Allegedly.

Absolutely - at least it is described that Jesus ran them out of the temple ahead of Passover (in the English-language and Swedish-language Bibles I have read). 

Note that I have a major problem with people that describe Bibles written in languages other than the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek as the infallible Word of God, for those texts were translated by fallible human beings.

[stormwatch7721]

Why are we talking about relilgion on this topic?