2013 Wichita Road Meet, July 20

[hbelkins]

I really think having a pre-planned route is a Good Thing. I don't think the "Let's go here, then let's go here; OK, where do we go next? OK, I know, we'll go there!" model works very well.

And as a member of a family that owns a 1997 Saturn SL2, I understand the legroom issue. I generally can't drive on meets to which I travel out of state or overnight because I carry so much junk in my vehicle, especially on long-distance trips.

[route56]

I was going to say, surely the tour is not going to be done on the fly, is it? Those usually don't turn out well.

No. I just did some high-level scoping out of an itenerary, and picked the three stops and driving tour so that it should fit in a three-hour tour (a three-hour tour)

I don't mean to inject myself into an overcrowded kitchen, but I am actually local to Wichita and have already scoped out some of the places that are on the tentative plan.  If no-one else wants to do it, I can easily make up a series of Google Maps itineraries to cover the driving segment of the meet.

Much appreciated. I could use some help finding the spots to park and walk to the photo op, especially with the I-235/13th Street project, since I am *not* local.

[kphoger]

Let's start a list of every spot you're interested in seeing, and we should be able to get a decent itinerary going.

Also let us know how "up" you are for driving to Newton.  Road-related things to see along the way would include the crappy I-135/K-254/I-235/K-96 interchange, undivided four-lane Old 81 between the two cities, roundabout-under-freeway interchanges in Newton....possibly more.

[route56]

I think Newton would be better saved for the next meet... either that, or St. Josephl/Atchison

[hbelkins]

I think Newton would be better saved for the next meet... either that, or St. Josephl/Atchison

I'd be all in for that in a couple of years. Would give me an excuse to get more counties in the area.

[US71]

You still have time to drive down there and work it out

I prefer carpooling

(BTW, any chance you can install the seats in your van. I drive a two-door now)

Probably won't have time. Got to run a bunch of stuff to LR next Thursday.

[route56]

T - 7 Days: Lunch place Set, hourney route laid out. Jonathan Winkler will scout out the spots. Am I missing anything (besides giving the restaurant notice that we're coming)

[hbelkins]

Have had to change my travel plans. The Comfort Inn in Alva is already full up for next Friday night. So I have two alternate routes picked once I get to the end of US 166. If I have time, I'm going to do a loop south into Oklahoma and back north into Kansas. If the hour is getting late, I'm going to head on to Wichita and then just try to collect some of the surrounding counties.

[corco]

Oh geez, good call. I have basically three possible routes devised depending on what time I get out of Wichita on Saturday, and the longest of those three had me actually spending the night in Alva on Saturday night, figured it would be no problem to get a room but it looks like it's full Saturday too.

Back to the drawing board, then. That was easy enough- spend the night in Pratt. http://goo.gl/maps/r6hQ3 If Wichita goes long, there's shorter ways to get to Pratt. That costs me an Oklahoma county and a Nebraska county over what I was planning, but gets me a Colorado county and an extra three Kansas counties, so that dog'll hunt, though probably it's a net less interesting drive (Great Bend to Fort Morgan is likely going to be fairly brutal).

My final route is I-90->US 212->SD 79->US 385->US 20->US 275->US 136->MO/IA 148->IA 2->IA 1->US 151->IA/IL 64->IL 84->IL 92->IL 192->IL 94->IL 96->IL 100->US 67->IL 111->IL 3->I-255->I-270->MO 21->MO 32->MO 137->MO 76->MO 125->US 60->I-44->US 400->US 75->K-254->I-235->I-135->K-15->US 77->OK 11->US 281->K/CO-96->CO 71->CO 14->CO 52->CO 119->I-25->CO 14->US 287->WYO 487->WYO 220->I-25->I-90->US 14->WYO 345->MT S-451->I-90->MT S-295->I-90, so that's something.
7/16 after work- Billings, MT
7/17- Fremont, NE
7/18- Fort Madison, IA
7/19- Miami, OK
7/20- Pratt, KS
7/21- Laramie, WY
7/22- Deer Lodge (home)

[hbelkins]

There are some independent motels in Alva, but I don't know anything about their quality, or availability, so I just decided to try to find a place elsewhere.

[corco]

Yeah, the Alva Motel seems to have good reviews. That said, I don't want to make a reservation in Alva that night because I'd only be able to make it if I get out of town right at four, and if the Comfort Inn is booked I'm guessing there's something happening in town that'll make availability rough everywhere and not worth risking a walkin (as you know, there's nowhere else to stay near there). I guess I could call as I leave Wichita, but I don't want to hassle with that

Pratt works well enough that I'm comfortable making a reservation- absolute worst case is I've already driven 54/400 from Wichita to Pratt, so I could even do that after sunset (though I'd really rather not). I won't be able to clinch Dundy County, Nebraska, whose non clinching has been annoying me for years, and arrive in Laramie at a reasonable time  unless I bypass the Front Range completely (not an option as I want to stock up on some Laughing Lab, a Colorado-only beer) , but that can wait till a later point.

[J N Winkler]

After some reconnaissance, I have fleshed out Richie's itinerary upthread into a tentative driving route:

Auntie Mae's Cafe to west side of I-235/13th Street flyover project

This takes us through the I-235/Central Ave. interchange, which on the west side has what are probably Kansas' only two examples of California-style scissor ramps.  They will disappear when KDOT reconstructs the interchange into a conventional diamond as part of the I-235/Kellogg project.  (The right-of-way impacts will be significant since KDOT will have to purchase the houses on Gilda which will be left with no access when Gilda is vacated to make way for ramps.)

Across I-235 to east side of project area (optional)

This allows us to see the Hoover Road relocation if time permits and we are interested.

I-235/13th Street project area to John Mack Bridge (NB:  the loop just south of the John Mack Bridge is an error since Google Maps does not acknowledge that it is possible to turn right directly off Broadway into Carp Street, which offers the most convenient parking)

This route follows McLean Boulevard, which was identified in Patterns for Thorofares (1955:  Wichita's first modern thoroughfare plan) as part of a possible freeway corridor.  (The freeway would have begun at Kellogg and followed McLean, Central, and Zoo in a northwesterly direction.)  There is a brief detour to take us through the Douglas and Sycamore roundabout in Delano, one of three in Wichita, and the route also takes us past an old wooden railroad trestle (which has since been upgraded with the installation of a concrete trackbed and concrete trestle caps) between Lincoln and Harry.

John Mack Bridge to west end of Third Street canal under Canal Route

This route is purposely indirect to take us past a couple of features of interest.  The first of these is a railroad grade separation on South Broadway between 31st Street and MacArthur which is currently being replaced on a shifted alignment.  The historic house at the north end of the overpass was a source of controversy when this project was being planned.  The second is the new 47th Street/I-135 interchange, which was the only one of Kansas' major ARRA projects to be done in Wichita.  Entering I-135 near its southern terminus allows us to see both of the two major canal cross-sections associated with the Canal Route:  the ground-level length between K-15 and Douglas (the watercourse, which is the canalization of Chisholm Creek as it passes through Wichita, is within a concrete-lined ditch), and the viaduct segment between Douglas and 17th Street.  Third Street is the best stopping place to see a Wichita curiosity:  a canal, rather than a paved street, in the Third Street corridor between the Canal Route and Hillside.

Driving tour back to Auntie Mae's following Canal Route (I-135), Northeast Freeway (K-96), and Kellogg Avenue (US 54-400)

Getting back onto I-135 at the 8th-9th Street interchange allows us to see what was at one time the proposed northern terminus of the Inner Loop freeway and the southern terminus of the Northeast Diagonal (both proposed roads fell by the wayside in the 1970's).  On Grove, we will cross an abandoned trackbed which the Northeast Diagonal was to follow.  The remainder of the itinerary will be straightforward freeway driving, with the exception of the transition from K-96 to the east end of the Kellogg freeway at Cypress (this length is still signalized).  This leg of the route takes us through the future locations of the Kellogg/KTA/Webb interchange upgrade and the Kellogg/I-235 stack/turban hybrid, various phases of which are on KDOT's T-WORKS to-do list.



This route is do-able within three hours.  Google Maps' listed driving times aggregate to 88 minutes, including the Hoover Road option.  The amount of time all of this takes will depend on how long we spend outside our cars.  I'd say each of the four stops is good for at least fifteen minutes' worth of exploration on foot, but our appetite for this will depend considerably on the weather--right now it is fairly cool and humid due to recent rainstorms (temperatures generally in the seventies), but we have had hundred-degree days recently.

If there is enough interest, I am happy to rejig the leg between I-235/13th Street and the John Mack Bridge to include transits of Wichita's other two roundabouts in Riverside.  This can be done without adding more than five or ten minutes to total journey time, but the routing is fairly convoluted since all three roundabouts are located near the confluence of the Little and Big Arkansas Rivers.

[hbelkins]

Seen one roundabout, you've seen 'em all, and I'm not a roundabout fan. 

[corco]

Yeah unless there's something particularly unique about these roundabouts, I'm good

[kphoger]

J N Winkler:

The routes are good.  Thank you for your work.

[13th to John Mack] - The Delano roundabout is the best one to visit in Wichita, since it's the busiest and the tightest.  I note we also get to use our left signals at it if we wish. And, since I'm talking about roundabouts–while I am a roundabout fan, I recently had my fix.  We just got back from a trip to Branson which included (without even planning ahead) driving through the Fredonia roundabout three times, Springfield's National Avenue DDI one time, Branson's 65/248 DDI probably six times or so, the Branson Landing roundabout at least six times, and the weird sorta-roundabout thing between Branson and Hollister who knows how many times.  So, yeah, only hitting one roundabout is fine with me.

[John Mack to 3rd Street Canal] - If we "miss" the light at 2nd Street, we could get the opportunity to legally turn left from the center lane against a red light–something that isn't all too common.  If not, we'll just have to imagine it.  Third Street is brick, which is also a plus.

[Driving tour] - Good to see you included the old railroad grade on Grove; I like that crossing.  Also glad to see you included the very long ramp from the canal route to K-96.

Here's a short list of "oh darn"s about the route–but things which would probably increase our drive time to work around.  So I'm not sure redoing things is even worth it.
[1] No SPUI action.
[2] No frontage road crossover action (could be added via the rebound at McLean & Sycamore if anyone cares).
[3] No volleyball at Kellogg & Ridge.
[4] Only includes straight-through movements at the Kellogg/135 turban, no ramps.



I'm able to get off work at 1:00 PM, so I could be to the west side at about 1:15.  The first stop being right off I-235 means it might work out very well for me to just meet everyone there.  Is that still a good itinerary?

[J N Winkler]

Here's a short list of "oh darn"s about the route–but things which would probably increase our drive time to work around.  So I'm not sure redoing things is even worth it.

[1] No SPUI action.
[2] No frontage road crossover action (could be added via the rebound at McLean & Sycamore if anyone cares).
[3] No volleyball at Kellogg & Ridge.
[4] Only includes straight-through movements at the Kellogg/135 turban, no ramps.

I opted for simplicity since some of the out-of-town visitors had expressed concern about budgeting time for county collecting after the meet.  However, in a car with a local driver and passengers not too concerned about time, it is easy enough to incorporate some of these elements on the final leg of the drive.  (1) is easily taken care of by exiting on West Street and passing straight through the West Street light before merging back onto Kellogg.  (Alternatively, if a turn at the SPUI is desired, we could easily hang a U at the light, get back onto Kellogg, exit at Edwards/Southwest Blvd., and use Southwest Blvd. and I-235 to backtrack to Kellogg.)  (2) and (3) can both be taken care of by exiting at Dugan, taking the crossover, following the eastbound frontage road to the Hoover underpass, and then taking the westbound frontage road west through the lights at Dugan and Ridge, following the weaving lane on Kellogg without merging, and then exiting at Tyler.

Since the driving plan calls for two transits of the Kellogg/I-135 turban, the first taking us through at the bottom level where the ramps are at their most impressive, we also have the option on the second go of exiting onto I-135 southbound (instead of continuing on Kellogg westbound), using the Lincoln Street folded-diamond partial cloverleaf immediately south to do an U-turn, and then taking the longest and tallest flyover ramp to merge back onto Kellogg westbound.  That would take care of (4) with two ramp trips.

My instinct was to play all of this by ear on the day.  Currently we are predicted to have a high of around 95° with some cloud.  If that turns out to be true and sky polarization is sharp, it should be fantastic driving weather.  If we get 105° instead with haze, enthusiasm might wilt.

I'm able to get off work at 1:00 PM, so I could be to the west side at about 1:15.  The first stop being right off I-235 means it might work out very well for me to just meet everyone there.  Is that still a good itinerary?

I think that sounds like a solid plan.

[hbelkins]

Some recent meets in the eastern US have featured an "after-meet" tour, picking up some things not on the original itinerary in case someone was interested. At my Ashland, Ky. meet several of us went out to an old abandoned railroad truss bridge on the property of Shawn DeCesari's family. After the Portsmouth, N.H. meet, John Housty did a tour of the Portsmouth area. And when I went to the Oklahoma City multi-day meet, some of the attendees went to see some Canadian River bridges after the evening meal which was part of the tour.

So it might be that some things could be added on at the conclusion of the meet, after we all return to the restaurant parking lot or whatever other facility us non-tour-drivers may use to leave our vehicles during the meet tour.

[US71]

Some recent meets in the eastern US have featured an "after-meet" tour, picking up some things not on the original itinerary in case someone was interested. At my Ashland, Ky. meet several of us went out to an old abandoned railroad truss bridge on the property of Shawn DeCesari's family. After the Portsmouth, N.H. meet, John Housty did a tour of the Portsmouth area. And when I went to the Oklahoma City multi-day meet, some of the attendees went to see some Canadian River bridges after the evening meal which was part of the tour.

So it might be that some things could be added on at the conclusion of the meet, after we all return to the restaurant parking lot or whatever other facility us non-tour-drivers may use to leave our vehicles during the meet tour.

I might be interested depending on time.

[J N Winkler]

Another option is to stagger the return times to Auntie Mae's (where I assume we will be leaving cars).  One set of cars would follow the bare-bones itinerary, while the other would take the interesting detours, and arrive perhaps fifteen to twenty minutes later.  This would mean we would all have to say our goodbyes at the Third Street stop, rather than at Auntie Mae's after completing the full itinerary, but would this cause difficulties?

[kphoger]

I'd personally prefer to stay together the whole length of the main tour.  Not having met anyone before, I'd rather have the last good-bye be at the end of the tour.  But that's just me.

Being a local, all those "extras" I mentioned aren't even for my benefit anyway:  I've obviously already seen them, since I live here.  Whatever other people would like to see/transit is cool with me.  An after-meet tour, while interesting, probably wouldn't be in the cards for me, since our family has plans that evening.

JNW, your handling of my [4] is actually pretty good.  Merging from Lincoln to NB I-135 can be dicey, especially with more than two vehicles, but staying in the exit lane until past the gore point (which your plan allows) makes it substantially less harrowing; plus, the ramp from WB Kellogg to SB I-135 is probably my second-favorite way to see the interchange (my favorite being the more accident-prone SB to EB), with an over-under-under-under-under bridge layout, relatively straightforward APL signage, and relatively easy merging.  Good deal.

Has anyone been thinking about photography?

[J N Winkler]

Has anyone been thinking about photography?

I have been.  Unfortunately, it is necessary to make some compromises in order to keep trip length under three hours.  We will be approaching I-235/13th Street from the south, which is advantageous for photography.  Most of our southbound travel (into the sun) will be on McLean Boulevard, which has little in terms of signing that is worth photographing.  The parking place I suggest for the John Mack Bridge offers the easiest access for photography.  Once we hit the Canal Route we will be travelling northbound and it will still be relatively early in the afternoon, so signs will be more or less directly illuminated by the sun.  On the northern flank of K-96 we will also have the sun at our shoulders.  The big loss is the eastern flank of K-96 and the whole length on Kellogg, where we will be driving into the sun.  The only real way to counter this is to do a post-meet tour that takes Kellogg in the eastbound direction, with the sun over our shoulders.

[hbelkins]

So how many attendees are we looking at? I have 2013 Kentucky maps for everyone. Giveaway items are in short supply these days, but I may be able to scrounge up litter bags, keychains and pens if we're looking at a dozen or so people who participate.

[kphoger]

I'm attending, plus one friend of mine.

BTW, how do we find each other at Auntie Mae's?  My friend was asking yesterday, "Do I just walk in and ask, So are you the roadgeeks?"

[WichitaRoads]

I'll be able to come for lunch, not sure about the actual tours. And once again, I have to remind that Auntie Mae's doesn't do reservations, that I know of. I know I recommended the place, but that's the one big crap in the hat with the place, so to speak.

ICTRds

[J N Winkler]

BTW, how do we find each other at Auntie Mae's?  My friend was asking yesterday, "Do I just walk in and ask, So are you the roadgeeks?"

A lot of us are on Facebook with relatively up-to-date profile pictures, and some of us know each other (at least slightly) from previous roadgeek meets.  I also suspect we will be the only large party at Auntie Mae's, let alone one with road-related articles such as maps close to hand.  I am also planning on bringing my laptop--though this is strictly on spec (I don't know if there will be table room for it).

My tentative head count (taking into account the people who have said here, on Facebook feeds visible to me, or on the Facebook event page for this meet, that they plan to go) is fourteen, of which two are maybes.

Edit:  Count revised after closer examination of the Facebook event page for the meet.