Unsafe right turn lane that crosses ramp lanes

[Brian556]

How is this allowed? This is insane!

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.304437,-81.351657&spn=0.000019,0.012531&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=28.30448,-81.351468&panoid=LoMBWKhdDxOgO2-o63ESug&cbp=12,256.68,,0,0

[agentsteel53]

bicycle awareness raising.  "what, you didn't look to your right before turning?  here, let's have a car t-bone you doing 60."

seriously... wait, what!?

[Kacie Jane]

I'd put a yield sign there just to make it explicit, but I'm not sure I see the big deal.  (And given that it's an intersection between two surface streets, I doubt 60 mph is the typical speed on the ramp.)

[agentsteel53]

maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box, but I don't remember ever having seen a right turn lane which conflicts with a vehicular lane to the right of it.

it seems to be something like this:

[NE2]

maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box, but I don't remember ever having seen a right turn lane which conflicts with a vehicular lane to the right of it.

Bike lanes. Way too fucking often.

[agentsteel53]

maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box, but I don't remember ever having seen a right turn lane which conflicts with a vehicular lane to the right of it.

Bike lanes. Way too fucking often.

dude, you're being an asshole here.  I specifically mentioned bicycles in the second post of this thread.

[Brandon]

maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box, but I don't remember ever having seen a right turn lane which conflicts with a vehicular lane to the right of it.

Bike lanes. Way too fucking often.

dude, you're being an asshole here.  I specifically mentioned bicycles in the second post of this thread.

I think he's got a handlebar stuffed up his ass.

Anyway, it is a screwy situation, but a hell of a way to train drivers to look before turning.

[briantroutman]

Many people don't understand how bicycles fit into the transportation infrastructure landscape. I cringe when I see the countless miles of poorly planned bike facilities that were thrown together to burn through TIGER money–and so that a bunch of sanctimonious politicians could congratulate themselves on how "green" and "progressive" they are.

Richard Moeur, who is a professional traffic engineer, generally advocates against parallel bike paths. He makes several points against parallel paths in his guide to bicycle facility design. (http://www.richardcmoeur.com/docs/bikepres.pdf)

[Kacie Jane]

Ignoring for the moment all comments regarding #2 and bicycles...

maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box, but I don't remember ever having seen a right turn lane which conflicts with a vehicular lane to the right of it.

it seems to be something like this:

Something like, perhaps.  But the lane on the right isn't really part of the same roadway yet, isn't parallel to the other lanes, and there's a gap between the right turn lane and the lane on the right (albeit not much of one).  Perhaps it would be safer if it were further upstream... more of a gap, more room to get the angles and sightlines right?

[agentsteel53]

I know of intersections like that, and they are all signed (STOP sign for the minor incoming street) or signalized (alternate phases).  never seen one with absolutely no regulation.

[Brandon]

I know of intersections like that, and they are all signed (STOP sign for the minor incoming street) or signalized (alternate phases).  never seen one with absolutely no regulation.

Same here.  This one looks like it is just begging for an accident.  Maybe things are different in Florida than Chicago.

[agentsteel53]

Same here.  This one looks like it is just begging for an accident.  Maybe things are different in Florida than Chicago.

I've driven in both places...

in Chicago, you'd eventually get some inattentive person get t-boned by someone coming down the ramp. 

in Miami, you'd eventually get some inattentive person get t-boned by someone coming the wrong way up the ramp.

Miami has the worst drivers in the country; I am convinced of this fact.

[Alps]

The right-turn lane from the mainline needs a YIELD sign, and then see if there are collisions and continue accordingly.

[agentsteel53]

The right-turn lane from the mainline needs a YIELD sign, and then see if there are collisions and continue accordingly.

ooh! science!

[NE2]

It should also be moved back. I've definitely seen at least one like that, where you turn right onto a slip ramp into the ramp that's merging on, merge into that ramp, and then make the right.

[Alps]

It should also be moved back. I've definitely seen at least one like that, where you turn right onto a slip ramp into the ramp that's merging on, merge into that ramp, and then make the right.

Oh absolutely, Philly-style minus the extra lanes to cross, I agree

[Brian556]

To me, the best solution to this would be to eliminate the free movement from southbound to westbound, and just have a normal right turn lane with no "ramp". As an alternate solution, it looks like you could have a free movement, but with the triangular island very small, but that would still make it difficult for westbound traffic to get over into the right lane to access the driveway.

I can see why they wanted to have that movement free, due to a high volume of traffic changing direction at this intersection, but to do it with the situation that is there is just absurd. This has to be the most unsafe engineering blunder I've ever seen in my life. How can you expect, especially at night, people to know to yield to traffic coming on the ramp when 1. There is no sign saying to yield, 2. they don't expect this situation bacause noboby's even seen anything like this before.

Just having this situation is bad enough, but it blows my mind that they would not post some kind of sign to warn of the situation, and assign right of way.
Think about it. You have traffic that crossed paths with no assigned right of way, and no blanket rule covers this bacause it is not standard.

[1995hoo]

We had something similar to that situation on Telegraph Road (VA-241) in Alexandria, Virginia, just north of the Capital Beltway (I-95/495) for many years, actually for longer than I can remember. Traffic coming north on Telegraph wanting to turn right onto Pershing Avenue had to cross over another lane that entered on the right from the Beltway exit ramps (the ramps from both sides of the Beltway combined into a single ramp). It meant you turned right in front of some very fast-moving traffic and it wasn't at all safe. I do not remember whether the exit ramp traffic had a "yield" sign, either, because their lane became a thru lane. Even if they did, it didn't matter: People didn't yield. The point Brian556 makes about the situation seen in the OP applied, too–there was no warning sign for people unfamiliar with the area.

I guess VDOT recognized the hazard because as part of the Wilson Bridge reconstruction over the past 10 years they redesigned that spot. Traffic making the right turn now has to turn right about half a mile or so earlier and take a new ramp that flies up and over the Beltway.

Historic Aerials view from 2002, prior to construction, is here: http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=8E-06&lat=38.8024613661915&lon=-77.0754152548827&year=2002  Pershing Avenue is the horizontally-oriented street on the right side about halfway up the image. It's a little hard to see, but what happened was that traffic exiting the Beltway had their own right-turn lane onto Pershing cut across the ramp traffic and turned on the other side of the little grassy island there.

Satellite view (zoomed out a bit more) from sometime within the past two years: http://goo.gl/maps/OoW5M  Notice how the right turn from Telegraph is gone. You now use the flyover seen at the bottom of the picture and you come out at the traffic light to the right of the Holiday Inn located next to the exit ramps there. Previously to reach that light you went right on Pershing and right again at the next light.



Looking at the situation in the original post, it appears that the right turn in question is into a church driveway. Pan it around to the right or click out to map view and you'll see what I mean. It appears to serve only the church. Perhaps that's the reason it's set up in a somewhat non-standard manner? That is, if it were a regular street they might be inclined to do it differently, but since it's a private entity perhaps they figure the vast majority of people using that lane are familiar with it?

(I'm not saying that should be how they decide these things, but as a practical matter I wouldn't be shocked if it at least factored into the thinking.)

[Revive 755]

How is this allowed? This is insane!

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.304437,-81.351657&spn=0.000019,0.012531&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=28.30448,-81.351468&panoid=LoMBWKhdDxOgO2-o63ESug&cbp=12,256.68,,0,0

I see a few possible solutions:

1) Replace the ramp with a standard right turn lane as Brian556 suggests, but maybe go with a double right turn lane if the volume is high enough.

2) Modify the intersection to a half CFI configuration, provide driveway access from left turn/right turn roadway, and provide a signalized U-turn movement for WB traffic at the intersection with Lakeside Drive west of the intersection.

3) Somehow cram in a full outer road on the north and west sides of FL 530 - but I don't see a really good way to tie such a road into FL 530 or one of the cross streets.

[Ned Weasel]

How is this allowed? This is insane!

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.304437,-81.351657&spn=0.000019,0.012531&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=28.30448,-81.351468&panoid=LoMBWKhdDxOgO2-o63ESug&cbp=12,256.68,,0,0

It's an uncontrolled intersection.  The rule is, when two vehicles approach at the same time, the one on the left yields to the one on the right.  That doesn't make it a great design, but it isn't breaking any laws.

I'm almost more concerned with the driveway entrance immediately to the west of it.  How far out of their way do cars traveling on eastbound FL 530 usually go in order to turn around and find their way into that right turn?  How many of them say "Eff that!" and illegally turn left into that driveway?

One solution that comes to mind is to take Brian556's solution of making the ramp a smaller triangular island and allow the two westbound lanes to meet sooner.  Then, close the driveway entrance to the church (hold on, let me finish), modify the driveway entrance immediately to the west to allow eastbound FL 530 traffic to make a left turn into it, and then connect that unused road between the two parking lots to the church parking lot.

[NE2]

I'm almost more concerned with the driveway entrance immediately to the west of it.  How far out of their way do cars traveling on eastbound FL 530 usually go in order to turn around and find their way into that right turn?  How many of them say "Eff that!" and illegally turn left into that driveway?

That's illegal because of the striped off area (assuming crossing one is actually illegal in Florida), but nothing prohibits making a left at the church entrance, left onto the onramp, and then right at the driveway.

(PS: it's CR 530, and only according to the state, not the county.)

[Brian556]

Found another one like it in Pensacola area, but at least this one is signed better:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=30.542084,-87.196922&spn=0.000007,0.003133&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=30.542084,-87.196922&panoid=3v9sn6A2K975kzt3PpNCpw&cbp=12,2.64,,0,0

[NE2]

Found another one like it in Pensacola area, but at least this one is signed better:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=30.542084,-87.196922&spn=0.000007,0.003133&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=30.542084,-87.196922&panoid=3v9sn6A2K975kzt3PpNCpw&cbp=12,2.64,,0,0

And it comes in before the final turn.

[kphoger]

Seriously?  That's a driveway for a church, isn't it?  A right turn into a Christian place of worship.  How has the thread gone this long without the phrase "Christian right"?

* kphoger ducks for cover

[Kacie Jane]

Found another one like it in Pensacola area, but at least this one is signed better:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=30.542084,-87.196922&spn=0.000007,0.003133&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=30.542084,-87.196922&panoid=3v9sn6A2K975kzt3PpNCpw&cbp=12,2.64,,0,0

And it comes in before the final turn.

Only barely.  Maybe by a car length, shorter than the box truck that's in GSV.  The more important feature is the stop sign.