Black Friday: Should doorbuster sales be banned or restricted?

[Alps]

Why are we talking about relilgion on this topic?

Because doorbuster in the original Hebrew is the same root word as Jehovah.

[NE2]

Note that I have a major problem with people that describe Bibles written in languages other than the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek as the infallible Word of God, for those texts were translated by fallible human beings.

The books of the Bible were written by fallible humans too

[Alps]

Note that I have a major problem with people that describe Bibles written in languages other than the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek as the infallible Word of God, for those texts were translated by fallible human beings.

The books of the Bible were written by fallible humans too

Absolutely. The oldest scraps of Torah being unearthed have many differences from the versions today. Which begs the question, if the Torah is considered the unalterable word of God, why is there no record of Him having clearly altered it?

[stormwatch7721]

That is not a right answer, Steve. Where is Alex or other admins when you need them?

[Alps]

That is not a right answer, Steve. Where is Alex or other admins when you need them?

Wow, dude. Lighten up a little. We let Off-Topic drift more than other boards.

[kphoger]

Holy cow.  Yes, I have much to say about this, but even I shall remain silent.

Why are we talking about relilgion on this topic?

Well, I was first going to mention that this.....

Jesus was known to flip a table or two.  Allegedly.

Yeah, but not to save 30% on a big screen TV.

.....should hardly construed as "religious talk".  But then I scrolled down the forum and came across.....

I have a major problem with people that describe Bibles written in languages other than the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek as the infallible Word of God, for those texts were translated by fallible human beings.

.....and there went that.     I believe this all started with the post.....

Hate the doorbusting "Christmas" sales.  Which door would Jesus bust?

.....which is a legitimate reaction to the actual topic of Black Friday doorbuster sales.  For the love of {name stricken} , can we get this thread back on topic, please?

[Duke87]

I strongly support the regulatory functions of government, but I think that's beside the point here.  The point, as far as I'm concerned, is that we have what's called a "compelling interest" in strictly regulating this type of sale.  When you can count the human casualties of a "sale", there's a compelling interest.  We need to stop this nonsense now.  Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before this happens again. 

New regulations were imposed in 1980 in a lot of places to keep something like that from happening again.  Apparently we weren't thinking about going shopping.

If only Macy's would hire The Who to play a Black Friday show at 12:01am, we will have come full-circle.

Megadeth would also be fitting for a Black Friday concert.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

Note that I have a major problem with people that describe Bibles written in languages other than the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek as the infallible Word of God, for those texts were translated by fallible human beings.

The books of the Bible were written by fallible humans too

Absolutely. The oldest scraps of Torah being unearthed have many differences from the versions today. Which begs the question, if the Torah is considered the unalterable word of God, why is there no record of Him having clearly altered it?

I blame the Romans.

[Special K]

Hate the doorbusting "Christmas" sales.  Which door would Jesus bust?

Jesus was known to flip a table or two.  Allegedly.

Absolutely - at least it is described that Jesus ran them out of the temple ahead of Passover (in the English-language and Swedish-language Bibles I have read). 

Note that I have a major problem with people that describe Bibles written in languages other than the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek as the infallible Word of God, for those texts were translated by fallible human beings.

As were the originals.

[Special K]

can we get this thread back on topic, please?

Thread drift makes the baby Jesus cry.

[hbelkins]

Why are we talking about relilgion on this topic?

Because Black Friday sales are for Christmas gifts, and Christmas is a religious holiday?

[hbelkins]

That is not a right answer, Steve. Where is Alex or other admins when you need them?

Steve IS an admin.

[NE2]

Bringing it back to religion, Steve is part of the Trinity. Probably the Holy Ghost.

[Alps]

That is not a right answer, Steve. Where is Alex or other admins when you need them?

Steve IS an admin.

Actually, no. I'm just State Property.

[bugo]

Hate the doorbusting "Christmas" sales.  Which door would Jesus bust?

Jesus was known to flip a table or two.  Allegedly.

Absolutely - at least it is described that Jesus ran them out of the temple ahead of Passover (in the English-language and Swedish-language Bibles I have read). 

Note that I have a major problem with people that describe Bibles written in languages other than the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek as the infallible Word of God, for those texts were translated by fallible human beings.

They were *written* by fallible human beings.  There is no question of this.  The only question is whether they were divinely inspired or not.
Post Merge: November 28, 2012, 08:13:50 AM

Why are we talking about relilgion on this topic?

Because it bips.
Post Merge: November 28, 2012, 08:13:55 AM

That I agree with. 

I dislike so-called blue laws intensely (since not all people of faith observe Sunday as the Sabbath, I consider them to be a violation of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and an offense to our secular system of government).

I agree. I remember malls here in MS used to not be open on Sundays until the mid-80s, when the state's blue laws were ruled unconstitutional. I don't get blue laws either. Since when did a mall keep someone from going to church? 

+1

There are still blue laws in North Dakota.  The Minot Walmart has a sign saying (and I paraphrase:) "Due to state blue laws, your local Walmart must close from (time) to (time)."  Minot was also the town where I saw a guy wearing a "White Pride" shirt at the post office.  Lovely town, other than that.
Post Merge: November 28, 2012, 08:14:00 AM

The sticking it to religion crowd is perhaps the most idiotic - their sole argument is that this is imposing religion on people, completely forgetting that while nominally Christian England has Sunday trading restrictions, so does aggressively secular France (and they are more strict than England's ones). Oh, and they typically are the sort of intolerant, hypocritical, people who want to impose their equivalent-to-religious views with force-of-law on religious groups.

It is imposing religion on those who don't want it.  Sunday is just another day to me.  Why should I be forced to follow the rules of a deity that I don't believe in?  Why not close stores on Fridays for the Muslims, Saturdays for the Jews, and Sundays for the Christians?  There's no question about it, they are imposing their beliefs on others.  I have very strong and outspoken beliefs, but I would never impose them on anybody.  If your religion is so weak that it can't survive without government support, then does it really need to survive?
Post Merge: November 28, 2012, 08:14:04 AM

Most holidays, after all, can be traced to religion anyway. 

Which have piggy-backed pagan holidays.

Absolutely.  The Catholic cult ripped so much off of paganism that it should be sued for theft.
Post Merge: November 28, 2012, 08:14:12 AM

Don't forget that the United Kingdom is not a secular republic, unlike the U.S.

As someone who is a member of a CofE church, I actually see that more than most people. Of course, it typically works backwards - see Parliament's recent threats to interfere with the internal affairs of the church (reiterated strongly today) - that they voted wrongly (and no, the CofE didn't reject women bishops - it rejected one way of dealing with the issue).

There are non-religious kooks and nuts out there in every society.  In free nations (such as those mentioned here), we have to patiently put  up with and  sometimes even listen to their arguments.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that what I said wasn't true. And likewise you have religious kooks who do the same - attack those who have different religious(-esque) views for wanting to impose such views while wanting to impose their religious(-esque) views.
[/quote]

For every non-believing kook, there are at least a thousand believing kooks.  This is true both in the United States (South and Midwest) and on the internet.  I saw a cartoon that said "Muslim radical: flies planes into buildings.  Christian radical: bombs abortion clinics.  Atheist radical: drinks microbrew beers and dissects the Bible."  And it's true.  Who was worse: Osama bin Laden, Scott Roeder, or Christopher Hitchens?
Post Merge: November 28, 2012, 08:14:17 AM

Hate the doorbusting "Christmas" sales.  Which door would Jesus bust?

Jesus was known to flip a table or two.  Allegedly.

Yeah, but not to save 30% on a big screen TV.

Only because they didn't exist. 

Neither did Jesus Christ.
Post Merge: November 28, 2012, 08:14:22 AM

That is not a right answer, Steve. Where is Alex or other admins when you need them?

Wow, dude. Lighten up a little. We let Off-Topic drift more than other boards.

But I can't call a Kook a kook.
Post Merge: November 28, 2012, 08:14:27 AM

I strongly support the regulatory functions of government, but I think that's beside the point here.  The point, as far as I'm concerned, is that we have what's called a "compelling interest" in strictly regulating this type of sale.  When you can count the human casualties of a "sale", there's a compelling interest.  We need to stop this nonsense now.  Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before this happens again. 

New regulations were imposed in 1980 in a lot of places to keep something like that from happening again.  Apparently we weren't thinking about going shopping.

If only Macy's would hire The Who to play a Black Friday show at 12:01am, we will have come full-circle.

Megadeth would also be fitting for a Black Friday concert.

Dave Mustaine is a Fundamentalist Christian (and a Rick Santorum supporter, how un-metal can you get?) so it would indeed be fitting.

[Scott5114]

Whatever religion you believe in, Jeremy, I can guarantee you it's 100% wrong if it doesn't say that it's a sin to post nine times in a row.

[Alps]

Whatever religion you believe in, Jeremy, I can guarantee you it's 100% wrong if it doesn't say that it's a sin to post nine times in a row.

I believe in the religion of Post Merge.

[Duke87]

Whatever religion you believe in, Jeremy, I can guarantee you it's 100% wrong if it doesn't say that it's a sin to post nine times in a row.

I believe in the religion of Post Merge.

But which post is it better to end, the left post or the right post?

[kphoger]

The sticking it to religion crowd is perhaps the most idiotic - their sole argument is that this is imposing religion on people, completely forgetting that while nominally Christian England has Sunday trading restrictions, so does aggressively secular France (and they are more strict than England's ones). Oh, and they typically are the sort of intolerant, hypocritical, people who want to impose their equivalent-to-religious views with force-of-law on religious groups.

It is imposing religion on those who don't want it.  Sunday is just another day to me.  Why should I be forced to follow the rules of a deity that I don't believe in?  Why not close stores on Fridays for the Muslims, Saturdays for the Jews, and Sundays for the Christians?  There's no question about it, they are imposing their beliefs on others.  I have very strong and outspoken beliefs, but I would never impose them on anybody.  If your religion is so weak that it can't survive without government support, then does it really need to survive?

Requiring businesses to close on holidays is not forcing religion on you.  Are you compelled to make a confession of faith?  No.  Are you compelled to use your time away from Wal-Mart in pursuit of spiritual matters?  No.  Are you compelled to go to a place of worship?  No.  All you're compelled to do is take a break, during which you're free to do whatever non-business enterprise you'd like.  I think one could argue that it is a benefit to society–all religion aside–that we take a break every so often.  Maybe that means one day a week, maybe it means a few days a year, or whatever, but not to go full-throttle 365 days a year.

Not to mention that it isn't a Christian point of doctrine that people not work or do business on Sundays.  The Christian Sunday is not completely equivalent to the Jewish Sabbath (in fact, this point is made quite obvious by the fact that Christians go to church on that day, which requires work not only by the members but also by the staff).  So, if it's not a religious belief that it's morally wrong to do work on Sunday, then how is requiring stores to close on Sundays forcing religion on you?

lots and lots of Bible debate

Moderators, are we calling the reliability of the Bible too far off-topic, or should I post my reply later?  I'm surprised it's gone on this long...

[bugo]

Whatever religion you believe in, Jeremy, I can guarantee you it's 100% wrong if it doesn't say that it's a sin to post nine times in a row.

I had nine separate thoughts, so I posted nine times.  Why should I make one post with 9 unrelated subjects?  Can you imagine the quoting nightmare?

[bugo]

Whatever religion you believe in, Jeremy, I can guarantee you it's 100% wrong if it doesn't say that it's a sin to post nine times in a row.

I believe in the religion of Post Merge.

I believe in the religion of if you have x number of unrelated thoughts, to make x number of posts.  Merging my posts just proves that this forum is WAY, WAY, WAY too overmoderated and the moderators have way too much time on their hands.  I've made several posts in a row on the other forums that I post to and nobody has had a problem.  I guess the "anal road enthusiast" thread wasn't too far off.

[bugo]

Requiring businesses to close on holidays is not forcing religion on you.  Are you compelled to make a confession of faith?  No.  Are you compelled to use your time away from Wal-Mart in pursuit of spiritual matters?  No.  Are you compelled to go to a place of worship?  No.  All you're compelled to do is take a break, during which you're free to do whatever non-business enterprise you'd like.  I think one could argue that it is a benefit to society–all religion aside–that we take a break every so often.  Maybe that means one day a week, maybe it means a few days a year, or whatever, but not to go full-throttle 365 days a year.

But it is.  These laws are religiously based.  It pisses me off that here in Oklahoma, I can't go buy a bottle of vodka (I don't even drink, but it's the point...) on Sunday to watch NFL games (I rarely watch NFL games, but it's the point...)  If you don't think these laws are based on Christianity then you're delusional.  I bet you would think differently if you weren't a Fundamentalist Christian.

*awaits Scott or Steve to merge all my separate posts into one unreadable post because they don't have anything better to do with their time*

[vdeane]

Agreed.  What if I want to work that day and take a break some other time?  Nope, can't do that.  I'm forced to take the break on one day because your religion says so.  Freedom of religion means that nobody need to have any impact of any kind on their life due to someone else's religion.

[bugo]

Agreed.  What if I want to work that day and take a break some other time?  Nope, can't do that.  I'm forced to take the break on one day because your religion says so.  Freedom of religion means that nobody need to have any impact of any kind on their life due to someone else's religion.

+1

[kphoger]

Requiring businesses to close on holidays is not forcing religion on you.  Are you compelled to make a confession of faith?  No.  Are you compelled to use your time away from Wal-Mart in pursuit of spiritual matters?  No.  Are you compelled to go to a place of worship?  No.  All you're compelled to do is take a break, during which you're free to do whatever non-business enterprise you'd like.  I think one could argue that it is a benefit to society–all religion aside–that we take a break every so often.  Maybe that means one day a week, maybe it means a few days a year, or whatever, but not to go full-throttle 365 days a year.

But it is.  These laws are religiously based.  It pisses me off that here in Oklahoma, I can't go buy a bottle of vodka (I don't even drink, but it's the point...) on Sunday to watch NFL games (I rarely watch NFL games, but it's the point...)  If you don't think these laws are based on Christianity then you're delusional.  I bet you would think differently if you weren't a Fundamentalist Christian.

*awaits Scott or Steve to merge all my separate posts into one unreadable post because they don't have anything better to do with their time*

I've also been annoyed by not being able to buy alcohol on Sundays (when we used to do our grocery shopping in Marion, IL), and I freely admit that such laws are based on religion.  I don't believe it's wrong to consume alcohol, even though the denomination I belong to has historically been one of the loudest abolitionist denominations.  But I didn't pitch a fit about the county law, since I was still free to buy my wine the other six days of the week.  FYI, most Christians aren't abolitionists.

More fundamentally, I don't think it's possible to completely separate law from religion.  Our American society's principles were very much framed by biblical principles; even if our founding fathers were more deist than Christian, they still used the Bible as a primary source of influence in crafting our government.  Fairness, equality, justice, responsibility, etc.–these are admirable traits in religion, especially Western religion.  Why, after all, do we desire to see our leaders held accountable for their actions, if not because we have a fundamental understanding that all people are all subject to an accountability that is higher than governmental position?  Or why do we even have laws and government at all, if not because we have an innate desire to see (moral) justice and order?  All of us but the anarchist have guiding moral principles which we want to see implemented from the top down, and to call some of those principles 'religious' and some 'non-religious' is, in my opinion, an impossible task.

Agreed.  What if I want to work that day and take a break some other time?  Nope, can't do that.  I'm forced to take the break on one day because your religion says so.

As I said earlier, my religion doesn't say so.  How many Christians have you heard shout 'Sinner!' to someone because they went to work on a Sunday?

If you can agree with me that it's a desirable thing for us to take a regular break from our business, then can you think of a better solution than setting aside certain designated days on which all/most business should halt?  How would it be easier, for example, if you knew every business would be closed one day a week but you had no idea which day of the week that would be?  This bank is closed on Tuesdays, that one on Fridays.  Or imagine going to the grocery store on December 22 and finding out they're closed because they chose to remain open on December 25.  I think it makes much more sense to have national civic holidays, whether or not the dates are picked due to religious history.  Furthermore, it makes sense that those days should be picked based on the religious affinity of the populace, because you know many of them are going to want those days off anyway.

Freedom of religion means that nobody need to have any impact of any kind on their life due to someone else's religion.

This is an impossibility.  The only way you're going to avoid any impact of any kind from someone else's religion is if you live your life in a bubble.

If I wear a tee shirt with a religious message, am I having some impact of any kind on your life due to my religion?  Yes.  Outlaw clothing with religious messages!

If I wish you a Merry Christmas, am I having some impact of any kind on your life due to my religion?  Yes.  Outlaw the phrase 'Merry Christmas'!

If you're facing a crisis, you turn to a program for assistance, and that program received donations from my church, am I having some impact of any kind on your life due to my religion?  Yes.  Outlaw religious donations!

If you encounter a traffic jam on the highway the Saturday after Christmas due to the fact that a lot of Christians travel to see their families for the holiday, are they having some impact of any kind on your life because of their religion?  Yes.  Outlaw holiday travel!

The fact is that you live in a society full of religious people.  If a significant number of those people (religious or not) don't want to work on certain holidays or a certain day of the week, then it makes at least some sense to accommodate that into law–especially if we can agree that to not work on some days is beneficial.  To determine whether that is more or less important than hurting the feelings of the minority (if, in fact, it is even the minority) is another matter.  But walking on eggshells so we don't offend anybody should not be the primary concern of our government, and how people feel should not be the be-all and end-all of whether a law is good or bad.